A REAL difference between HFA and Asperger's

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No, you cannot make somebody normal with behavioral incentives and that was my whole point. I've been arguing for a clearer clinical distinction between Autism and AS.

There is a social motivation hypothesis about decreased social motivation in autism, meaning all of autism spectrum including AS. Zero social motivation would just be eggstreme of this.

I disagree. I met an extremely sociable 15 year old autistic guy who could communicate only with grunting, gestures and a picture book. He would not meet criteria for Asperger Syndrome, but he was definitely interested in social interaction. (He once spent half an hour showing me pictures of different kinds of campers, for example.)

Aspergers is a part of the autism spectrum. Anyone who says Aspergers isn't autism doesn't know what they're talking about.

I have wondered about this too. I think there are some of us that really want friends and social acceptance/interaction but just don't have the right skills to create those wanted social connections. This creates depression and sadness for them. They may then have the attitude of "F*** them all, I hate people" Then there is the group of us don't have the skills but also really don't care to have social acceptance or multiple friendships. I fall into the second category myself. I have enough social skills to go to school and work or interact with a cashier or bank teller but I don't need to be their best friends or go out and have a drink and socialize with any of them. I'm perfectly fine going to dinner or an event on my own without a companion. In many ways, it is a lot easier going alone. For me it is easy to have 1 or 2 friends that if you don't call them in a month, they don't really care and are not offended.

I am thinking maybe people with Aspergers really want social interaction and acceptance and those with HFA are not so interested. Any thoughts or opinions on this?

The problem here is that two differing terms exist with partially overlapping traits simply because of a disparity between two parallel studies with slightly different findings.

Autism is a bit like a wide bar chart - with around 200 bars probably that will be high or low according to what traits and symptoms each person has. It's almost impossible to make generic assumptions because those bars are so different between individuals. For example: I have a visual-spacial IQ in the top 1% of Mensa candidates, coupled with a photographic memory and visual thinking. I have massively strong spatial skills, but my verbal reasoning and such is not so strong. I am totally non-social in person (I have no desire to be sociable; I dislike being sociable - and will do anything possible to isolate myself from others). Sensory overload will cause a shut-down/selective mutism, but not an epic meltdown. I had no delay of speech, but was clinically delayed in cognitive and self-help skills (example: couldn't tie my own shoe-laces long after other children had done that and more, was not able to shop independently). In short, I would fit both of the groups being suggested in this thread, and it's possible that many others do too. There aren't really two distinct conditions on the spectrum and I suspect this is why the American DSM has attempted to unify everything under the umbrella term "ASD" (including getting rid of the less-helpful PDD-NOS diagnosis).

Tony Attwood has written a publication to discuss the differences, and he pointed out that "the results of the research has not established a distinct and consistent profile for each group. Ehlers, Nyden, Gillberg, Dahlgren Sanberg, Dahlgren, Hjelmquist and Oden (1997) found that only a minority of each diagnostic group showed a characteristic profile." The article goes on to mention subsequent studies, but these too have failed to find any distinct separation in groups. I would guess that HFA as a separate diagnosis from Asperger's Syndrome is likely to fade out simply because it's all too vague.

The 'f them all' is essentially what I think this song is saying

I cannot relate so much to that feeling. I was diagnosed as having classic autism and certainly throughout my childhood with my verbal delays and self-care problems that was a very accurate label but the problem is that it also stops people from really letting you improve with the label. in the last year or so ive had people say 'oh! well you probably have hfa then! yay!' but no one would have thought that looking at me in childhood so what was more useful then as a shorthand. i think if they had gone with hfa then i wouldn't have gotten all the help thats let me do so well. but i still need most of those supports and im worried that because im doing so well with supports they'll assume they can take away supports and i will still do okay. which i dont think will happen. my verbal skills are much better but my self-care skills are still less than my 7 year old niece.

i dont think the distinctions are necessarily useful except as a shorthand for 'they could benefit from this kind of help' and even then there usefulness is limited

I think I fit more into the category of not really being interested in social interaction. I was also born with, prosopagnosia (face blindness). I am wondering if this could be part of the "neurobiological" basis you are talking about. What is your opinion on this?

I think, possibly, my not recognizing peoples faces since birth has contributed to me not being interested in social interaction and being more self contained. My prosopagnosia, on the other hand, also makes others not so interested to interact with me because I think they think I am ignoring them. I have to recognize people by content meaning a conversation. I can recognize some by voice pretty quickly but of course that requires them to be the first to start the interaction. If I can't figure them out right away by voice, I have to sort it out by conversation content without them figuring out I don't know who they are yet. I hope this explanation makes sense. I have found it is really hard for people to understand prosopagnosia because recognizing a persons face is as easy as breathing to most.

A short background on my prosopagnosia- I did not realize that is what I had until I was about 35 when I was volunteering for a job that required me to organize volunteers and fill positions for a project. I always thought I just couldn't remember peoples names. I started to research "how to remember peoples names" so that I could more effectively do this volunteer job. This is when I realized my problem was more then just people's names, it was not knowing them by looking at them. It said this was called face blindness/prosopagnosia. I began to research prosopagnosia and I found that many people with prosopagnosia are autistic. I had no idea what an autistic was so I researched that. I had always figured I was a weird and strange person until I started reading about autism. That was an amazing discovery for me and answered many many of my questions about my behaviors.

Thanks to all for taking the time to read this.
PS- Does anyone know of any studies showing that prosopagnosia at birth (not due to a brain injury or accident later in life) is more likely to effect a HFA versus a person with aspergers?

You are right, Ettina. Neither Kanner nor Asperger would consider me to have their respectable conditions. In fact, do you know who would consider me to have his condition? Thedore Heller, the doctor who described dementia infantilis, which is called today CDD.In the end of Leo Kanner's 1943 paper, he said that Kanner's condition is different from dementia infantilis, which has at least 2 years of normal or near normal development before symptons start. Source:http://simonsfoundation.s3.amazonaws.com/share/071207-leo-kanner-autistic-affective-contact.pdf, right under 'Comment' Part. Note that in the paper, CDD is called 'dementia infantilis'. Plus, in 1908, Thedore Heller discovered that her patients, whose presentation would later be described by Leo Kanner, had normal or near normal development until they had a dramatic regression as toddlers or little kids. So she called the regression, 'dementia infantilis', which in latin means 'Childhood Dementia'. Before the regression I was developing normally: When I was 1, I started to speak. My family described me as a sweet very sociable baby. I even saw videos of myself before my regression. And I was just like a nuerotypical until I was 2 1/2. Then, I regressed in the way that my mom described as very dramatic. So I did had an NT moment when I was very little. Like most kids before their regression into CDD, I was blooming in language, engagement, and sociability.
The DSMIV criteria for Classic Autism says at the end, "The disturbance is not better accounted for by Rett's disorder or childhood disintegrative disorder." Futhermore, her is how I met the criteria for CDD in the way my parents told me about my regression,
299.10 Childhood Disintegrative Disorder
A. Apparently normal development for at least the first 2 years after birth as manifested by the presence of age-appropriate verbal and nonverbal communication, social relationships, play, and adaptive behavior.

B. Clinically significant loss of previously acquired skills (before age 10 years) in at least two of the following areas (I regressed at age approx. 2 1/2 years):

(1) expressive or receptive language (I became nonverbal very quickly and my parents thought I went deaf).

(2)social skills or adaptive behavior(I did not want to talk to people and I remember pushing people and crying. My parents considerd my behavior to be bizzare like running around the house flapping my hands as well as putting Matchbox/Hot Wheels cars around my ears and tapping on the cars.)

(3) bowel or bladder control

(4) play (I used to play with my brother. But when my regression struck me, I did not like playing anymore. Instead of playing with Matchbox/Hot Wheels cars the way a normal kid does, I put it around my ears.)

(5) motor skills

C. Abnormalities of functioning in at least two of the following areas (This is what I have to meet NOW at current functioning):

(1) qualitative impairment in social interaction (e.g., impairment in nonverbal behaviors, failure to develop peer relationships, lack of social or emotional reciprocity) (I have some BUT not all social deficits that most of you with Aspergers or HFA face)

(2) qualitative impairments in communication (e.g., delay or lack of spoken language, inability to initiate or sustain a conversation, stereotyped and repetitive use of language, lack of varied make-believe play) (Whenever I want to socialize, I do not talk. I am not sure if this is elective mutism. Even when i am face to face with the dream of talking with a hot chick in reality, my mind gets discombloberated in what to say. I stuble halfway when speaking. Struggling to know how to talk with people.)

(3) restricted, repetitive, and stereotyped patterns of behavior, interests, and activities, including motor stereotypies and mannerisms (I have OCD, I have intellectual Aspergers obsessions. Right now my obsession is in the Autism Spectrum Disorders. I have obsessive fear.)

DD. The disturbance is not better accounted for by another specific pervasive developmental disorder or by schizophrenia. (In the DSMIV criteria for "299.00 Autistic Disorder", section C says, "C. The disturbance is not better accounted for by Rett's disorder or childhood disintegrative disorder." In Autistic Disorder with regression, kids already have considerate delays before regression.CDD is normal or near normal development.)

When DSMV came out, CDD was fused inside Autism Spectrum Disorders. Plus, by the time the regression in CDD is over, the kid was just like someone with autism. So because of that CDD is considered an autism spectrum disorder, I am still on the spectrum. Source:http://iancommunity.org/cs/about_asds/childhood_disintegrative_disorder_cdd I meet the criteria for CDD in both DSM IV and Thedore Heller's studies despite being high functioning. I am high functioning and would still be considered HFA when the term HFA is used to refer to anyone on the autism spectrum that is cognitivley and adaptivley higher functioning. And CDD is considered an autism spectrum disorder. So in the end, I would be considered: Childhood Disintegrative Disorder/High Functioning Autism. Am I on track?

I don't recognize faces and want social interaction, I'm not sure there's any relationship.

i had language delays as a child, but had deficits in non verbal skills, visual spatial problem solving, and bad coordination, but the last diagnosis i got from a psychologist was an asperger's one

I had a language delay as a child (I presented like Kanner's autism until age 5 1/2)

I'm not very good in visual-spatial tasks.

I was known as a "walking encyclopedia" when I was about 8-12 years old.

My Verbal IQ scores were always higher than my Performance IQ scores. The gap lessened, but did not disappear, once I became an adult.

I had behavioral problems indicative of ADHD (they didn't have the diagnosis when I was a child).

I presented classically "Aspergian" as a child/adolescent. Still somewhat today.

i like your profile picture

My parents say I had a slight speech delay but quickly caught up & I don't think my sensory reactions were really immature. The autsim spectrum was completely ruled out when I was tested thou I'm pretty sure I have Aspergers after a lot of research online including here & self-analyzing.

I was diagnosed with both, where HFA = learning difficulty, and Aspergers = social difficulty:

HFA affects me by low-average IQ, slow learning, inability to read or concentrate for a long duration, remembering faces but not names, not absorbing data and information properly (opposite to a savant if you will), and my knowledge hits a brick wall when I want to learn really technical things relating to my career; e.g. my chosen field is IT but the furthest i'll get is basic programming and hardware installations. Family says i'm good at IT but i'm really not as far as my age is concerned.

Aspergers on the other hand affects me by being unable to engage in conversations as far as making the first response; mind draws a blank as soon as i'm expected to respond to a question (this is less of a problem when communicating with family); inability to make friends in the way of initiating a request to join their social circle; stammering when speaking fast when I need to make a fast response to someones query; and odd times when I think my brain is responsible for making me not feel like talking to people whoever they may be.

On another note, i am often challenged with emotions such as anxiety and depression when certain situations arise, mostly anxiety gets the better of me and I am faced with hard decisions to make where if I chose to shy away from them, something worse will come up in their place and that makes me afraid of whats in store for me in the future.

In terms of phenotype, HFA and Aspergers might seem almost alike each other. Many people with HFA, including me, would fit Christopher Gilbberg's criteria for Aspergers. But when looking in terms of BIOLOGICAL difference, it's going to be much more accurate in determining differences between Autism (including HFA) and Aspergers and would find a lot more differences than the psychiatric doctors and diagnostic criteria would. For instance, there is an EEG difference between Autism and Aspergers http://m.livescience.com/38630-autism-a ... ivity.html
http://vector.childrenshospital.org/201 ... st-on-eeg/
Also considering the fact that in reality I developed normally until I was 16 months old and at that age regressed into autism, my brain structure would mostly rule that I have Autism and not Aspergers. http://sfari.org/news-and-opinion/news/ ... ive-autism. So comparing autism/HFA to Aspergers would be like comparing autism/LFA to CDD, Tay-Sachs To Sandhoff, or Trismony 13 to Trismony 18.