How come there are so many books about Asperger's and Girls?

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Eloa
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17 Aug 2016, 1:31 pm

somanyspoons wrote:
Eloa wrote:
somanyspoons wrote:
RetroGamer87 wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
Narcissism is defined by grandiosity, according to a recent study 60 percent of adults diagnosed with Aspergers have suicide ideation, very different.
Respectfully I must disagree. Narcissists can be depressed and can have suicide ideation.

In fact depression is quite common for narcissists because they tend to be perfectionists. They set perfect standards for themselves, which they invariably fail to live up to. This leads to regret, self-loathing and depression.

I would hypothesise that many depressed people could go through this process without even realizing their depression is caused by setting unrealistically high standards.

If you want a demonstration take a look at an eating disorder forum. They're all narcissists and they're all highly depressed.


I think you are mixing the informal usage of the word "narcissist," meaning someone who is overly involved with caring about how they look or come off around others, with the clinical use of Narcissitic Personality Disorder. NPD is a totally different thing. They don't tend towards depression - the whole disorder revolves around their projecting their emotional states onto others. So if they did fall into a funk, it would inevitably be projected into anger that someone else wronged them. The whole disorder is that they can't handle feeling their own vulnerabilities. They tend to be extraordinarily focused on manipulating others into participating in their farce that they are "extraordinary" and "the best ever."

I'm sorry to bring politics into this. But Trump really is classic. Everything out of his mouth is about how great he is, and maneuvering others to confirm his dilution. This is the opposite of someone with anorexia, who thinks way too much about how they look, but feels bad about it, and will often try to get others to confirm the dilution that they look bad.


So-called covert Narcissists tends toward depression.
They interpret almost everything as rejection and criticism, are often hypersensitive and avoid being in the center of attention.
Often they live drawn back from society.
They do not believe to be of any value to anyone.
That is also a form of grandiosity: "not be of any value to anyone", but in it's negative.
Insidely they often do believe that they are different from others, special.
This form of grandiose thinking stems from severe rejection, neglect etc. at very young age where a baby is not yet able to differenciate between the environment and itself, meaning being in an unhealthy, cold and unloving environment the baby does not interpret it as: "The environment is bad" but turns it into "I am bad".
Later the child builds a hidden image of "I am special" though it does feel without any worth.
Covert Narcissism often gets overlooked because there is no real assessment for it, only for the open form of NPD.
So they get diagnosed with depression instead or other disorders, maybe some even with ASD because of social avoidance and focus on things instead of people.
(Covert Narcissists can also hyperfocus on things to become great at them and be perfectionists).

This is from literature that I have read from a well-known German expert on NPD and other trauma-related disorders.
I also read a lot of work by Laurence Heller about so-called "developmental trauma" also describing this pathology.


There might be a little cultural difference going on here. In Germany, Fruedian psychoanalysis is still considered legit therapy. Here in the US, it is not. It turns my stomach to hear it touted, although I'm sure you didn't mean it to do so. (Very glad that you put a note that English isn't your first language, as this allowed me to change my perception.)

I do not really understand what point you want to bring across in regard to cultural difference, so that's all I can reply to that paragraph.

somanyspoons wrote:
So, in the US, "covert narcissim" is an informal use of the word. It does not apply to the official diagnosis. But that word is being used in different ways in Germany (and France, too, one would assume.) Just a cultural thing.

It is no official diagnostic term, it is another way how NPD can express itself contrary to overt narcissism.
Again I do not understand the cultural thing.

somanyspoons wrote:
Can we assume that US definitions apply here because this site is sourced in the US?

I've never had encountered this request on this site before.
There is nowhere written in the forum-rules that terms request US-based definitions so I am sorry to let you know that I ignore your request.

somanyspoons wrote:
It would be an interesting debate. Maybe for another thread.

It could be interesting but I am not very inclined to debate.
It takes a lot of time to form words in my head and write them down and when I read debates they often tend to progress really fast.


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AdamLain
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17 Aug 2016, 1:46 pm

League_Girl wrote:
My ex was a covert narcissist that is why you wouldn't notice he is one if you don't know about covert narcissism. They do not fit the NPD criteria so that is why they go unnoticed and why they are considered the most dangerous narcissists and low functioning. From my personal experience, they may also hide behind other labels like PTSD, depression, anxiety. I am sure these people also get misdiagnosed if the therapist is not aware of covert narcissism. Also people with it tend to be naive, gullible, and trusting but I think that may be due to them being so self absorbed and self centered and selfish. My ex was naive and he was always getting "screwed over." He was also very sensitive and very needy. He cried a lot and he would get very upset if I wanted to be alone or go to bed. I was so "self centered" but that was just projection there. I don't think he was really aware of himself and because narcissists are usually not aware, that is why they rarely change. He was just a unhappy guy. They may not realize they even have a problem and might only think they just have depression or anxiety or social anxiety or just think other people are the problem. Some even have thought they had Asperger's according to the psychforums I had been on about NPD. There are some who are aware of their narcissism. I think the ones who are unaware wouldn't be posting on narcissism forums talking about their condition. But there are some with it who see no problem with having it.


The main difference between someone who has Narcissistic Personality Disorder and someone who is egocentric is that Narcissists do not seek approval nor want it from others, egocentric people do seek approval and are upset when they don't receive it. From the behavior you are describing, it sounds like your ex was an Aspie and not an actual Narcissist.



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17 Aug 2016, 1:57 pm

AdamLain wrote:
Because nobody cares about men and their feelings, as a matter of fact no one thinks men have feelings. 75% of the people with Autism are male and that is why there is hardly no research done concerning the disorder, it doesn't effect anybody's mother, sister, wife, or girlfriend. Right now breast cancer, domestic violence against women (apparently that doesn't happen to men at all), and HPV are more important because they effect females.

Where did you get that information from? I honestly believe that i have never heard anyone claim that in my life.


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17 Aug 2016, 2:13 pm

AdamLain wrote:
League_Girl wrote:
My ex was a covert narcissist that is why you wouldn't notice he is one if you don't know about covert narcissism. They do not fit the NPD criteria so that is why they go unnoticed and why they are considered the most dangerous narcissists and low functioning. From my personal experience, they may also hide behind other labels like PTSD, depression, anxiety. I am sure these people also get misdiagnosed if the therapist is not aware of covert narcissism. Also people with it tend to be naive, gullible, and trusting but I think that may be due to them being so self absorbed and self centered and selfish. My ex was naive and he was always getting "screwed over." He was also very sensitive and very needy. He cried a lot and he would get very upset if I wanted to be alone or go to bed. I was so "self centered" but that was just projection there. I don't think he was really aware of himself and because narcissists are usually not aware, that is why they rarely change. He was just a unhappy guy. They may not realize they even have a problem and might only think they just have depression or anxiety or social anxiety or just think other people are the problem. Some even have thought they had Asperger's according to the psychforums I had been on about NPD. There are some who are aware of their narcissism. I think the ones who are unaware wouldn't be posting on narcissism forums talking about their condition. But there are some with it who see no problem with having it.


The main difference between someone who has Narcissistic Personality Disorder and someone who is egocentric is that Narcissists do not seek approval nor want it from others, egocentric people do seek approval and are upset when they don't receive it. From the behavior you are describing, it sounds like your ex was an Aspie and not an actual Narcissist.


No he fit the profile of covert narcissism, the emotional abuse, the controlling behavior, the humiliation, the mind games and manipulation, it all makes sense now and why I found his behavior confusing. I am not going to go there labeling abusers as aspies and as*holes as aspies and labeling aspies as abusers like those women do on AS Partners. This is very dangerous because this is why victims enable the abuse because they keep giving their partners excuses and letting them get away with it. Also this turns victims into bigots about aspies thinking they're all abusers.

Now is it possible for an aspie to be a narcssist, it's possible. I don't see why they can't be immune to it.

Now I am going to stop since I am now having an anxiety attack typing this and my hands shaking. My blog in in the link and I talked about his abuse so I won't say anymore.


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AdamLain
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17 Aug 2016, 2:30 pm

League_Girl wrote:
AdamLain wrote:
League_Girl wrote:
My ex was a covert narcissist that is why you wouldn't notice he is one if you don't know about covert narcissism. They do not fit the NPD criteria so that is why they go unnoticed and why they are considered the most dangerous narcissists and low functioning. From my personal experience, they may also hide behind other labels like PTSD, depression, anxiety. I am sure these people also get misdiagnosed if the therapist is not aware of covert narcissism. Also people with it tend to be naive, gullible, and trusting but I think that may be due to them being so self absorbed and self centered and selfish. My ex was naive and he was always getting "screwed over." He was also very sensitive and very needy. He cried a lot and he would get very upset if I wanted to be alone or go to bed. I was so "self centered" but that was just projection there. I don't think he was really aware of himself and because narcissists are usually not aware, that is why they rarely change. He was just a unhappy guy. They may not realize they even have a problem and might only think they just have depression or anxiety or social anxiety or just think other people are the problem. Some even have thought they had Asperger's according to the psychforums I had been on about NPD. There are some who are aware of their narcissism. I think the ones who are unaware wouldn't be posting on narcissism forums talking about their condition. But there are some with it who see no problem with having it.


The main difference between someone who has Narcissistic Personality Disorder and someone who is egocentric is that Narcissists do not seek approval nor want it from others, egocentric people do seek approval and are upset when they don't receive it. From the behavior you are describing, it sounds like your ex was an Aspie and not an actual Narcissist.


No he fit the profile of covert narcissism, the emotional abuse, the controlling behavior, the humiliation, the mind games and manipulation, it all makes sense now and why I found his behavior confusing. I am not going to go there labeling abusers as aspies and as*holes as aspies and labeling aspies as abusers like those women do on AS Partners. This is very dangerous because this is why victims enable the abuse because they keep giving their partners excuses and letting them get away with it. Also this turns victims into bigots about aspies thinking they're all abusers.

Now is it possible for an aspie to be a narcssist, it's possible. I don't see why they can't be immune to it.

Now I am going to stop since I am now having an anxiety attack typing this and my hands shaking. My blog in in the link and I talked about his abuse so I won't say anymore.


No, Aspies can't be Narcissists. Egocentrism is the biggest difficulty for all with Autism, hence their troubles relating to other people, having an ego centric personality and having NPD cannot fit together.



AdamLain
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17 Aug 2016, 2:36 pm

PatrickJane wrote:
AdamLain wrote:
Because nobody cares about men and their feelings, as a matter of fact no one thinks men have feelings. 75% of the people with Autism are male and that is why there is hardly no research done concerning the disorder, it doesn't effect anybody's mother, sister, wife, or girlfriend. Right now breast cancer, domestic violence against women (apparently that doesn't happen to men at all), and HPV are more important because they effect females.

Where did you get that information from? I honestly believe that i have never heard anyone claim that in my life.


They don't have to overtly say it, all they have to do is objectify men in every sitcom during dialogue featuring female friends saying things like "he's not a great choice, he doesn't have a very good job" or "he still lives at home with his parents", or when they show pictures of Charlie Hunman in his underwear and say things like "the perfect man" as if you said things like that about Kate Upton it wouldn't be sexist.



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17 Aug 2016, 2:42 pm

I wasn't aware there were even this many books about Asperger's at all, and certainly not ones about female aspies since it's like we don't exist. Very surprising.



AdamLain
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17 Aug 2016, 2:47 pm

lostonearth35 wrote:
I wasn't aware there were even this many books about Asperger's at all, and certainly not ones about female aspies since it's like we don't exist. Very surprising.


It sucks for you guys, bet any money you don't usually get diagnosed as adults either because everyone thinks your problem is that you are just a b**ch with no filter on her mouth. That's what everyone thought of my ex with Asperger's. (Not trying to be mean, just saying matter of factly)



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17 Aug 2016, 3:09 pm

AdamLain wrote:
PatrickJane wrote:
AdamLain wrote:
Because nobody cares about men and their feelings, as a matter of fact no one thinks men have feelings. 75% of the people with Autism are male and that is why there is hardly no research done concerning the disorder, it doesn't effect anybody's mother, sister, wife, or girlfriend. Right now breast cancer, domestic violence against women (apparently that doesn't happen to men at all), and HPV are more important because they effect females.

Where did you get that information from? I honestly believe that i have never heard anyone claim that in my life.


They don't have to overtly say it, all they have to do is objectify men in every sitcom during dialogue featuring female friends saying things like "he's not a great choice, he doesn't have a very good job" or "he still lives at home with his parents", or when they show pictures of Charlie Hunman in his underwear and say things like "the perfect man" as if you said things like that about Kate Upton it wouldn't be sexist.

I don't quite see why it would be sexist to say such a thing about Kate Upton. But then again, i'm certainly not too knowledgable in those types of topics as you can probably see.


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17 Aug 2016, 3:58 pm

AdamLain wrote:
It sucks for you guys, bet any money you don't usually get diagnosed as adults either because everyone thinks your problem is that you are just a b**ch with no filter on her mouth.
Not just adults. They say the same thing about aspie kids as well. All age groups.

I've had some really awful conversations with people who said "Aspergers doesn't exist. It was just made up as an excuse for "bad" behavior".

I think by "bad behavior" they meant nonconformist behavior. Either that or not acting like a sycophant before authority figures.


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AdamLain
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17 Aug 2016, 4:05 pm

RetroGamer87 wrote:
AdamLain wrote:
It sucks for you guys, bet any money you don't usually get diagnosed as adults either because everyone thinks your problem is that you are just a b**ch with no filter on her mouth.
Not just adults. They say the same thing about aspie kids as well. All age groups.

I've had some really awful conversations with people who said "Aspergers doesn't exist. It was just made up as an excuse for "bad" behavior".

I think by "bad behavior" they meant nonconformist behavior. Either that or not acting like a sycophant before authority figures.


I've heard the same things, problem is average people are stupid.



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17 Aug 2016, 4:07 pm

AdamLain wrote:
Because nobody cares about men and their feelings
Don't say that. You don't want people here to think you have feelings do you? Men should just deal with their feelings or ignore them completely. Not cry about them or express negative emotions.

[/sarcasm]

In truth this reminds me of my ex. We both had depression. She dumped me because I didn't give her "emotional support". When I talked about my similar depression she said "deal with it".

More women are diagnosed with depression than men. Does that mean more women have depression or does it mean depressed women are more likely to be diagnosed than depressed men?


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AdamLain
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17 Aug 2016, 4:32 pm

RetroGamer87 wrote:
AdamLain wrote:
Because nobody cares about men and their feelings
Don't say that. You don't want people here to think you have feelings do you? Men should just deal with their feelings or ignore them completely. Not cry about them or express negative emotions.

[/sarcasm]

In truth this reminds me of my ex. We both had depression. She dumped me because I didn't give her "emotional support". When I talked about my similar depression she said "deal with it".

More women are diagnosed with depression than men. Does that mean more women have depression or does it mean depressed women are more likely to be diagnosed than depressed men?


I don't have many feelings.



RetroGamer87
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17 Aug 2016, 4:33 pm

AdamLain wrote:
RetroGamer87 wrote:
AdamLain wrote:
Because nobody cares about men and their feelings
Don't say that. You don't want people here to think you have feelings do you? Men should just deal with their feelings or ignore them completely. Not cry about them or express negative emotions.

[/sarcasm]

In truth this reminds me of my ex. We both had depression. She dumped me because I didn't give her "emotional support". When I talked about my similar depression she said "deal with it".

More women are diagnosed with depression than men. Does that mean more women have depression or does it mean depressed women are more likely to be diagnosed than depressed men?
I don't have many feelings.
Good, that means you're a real man :)


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AdamLain
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17 Aug 2016, 5:42 pm

RetroGamer87 wrote:
AdamLain wrote:
RetroGamer87 wrote:
AdamLain wrote:
Because nobody cares about men and their feelings
Don't say that. You don't want people here to think you have feelings do you? Men should just deal with their feelings or ignore them completely. Not cry about them or express negative emotions.

[/sarcasm]

In truth this reminds me of my ex. We both had depression. She dumped me because I didn't give her "emotional support". When I talked about my similar depression she said "deal with it".

More women are diagnosed with depression than men. Does that mean more women have depression or does it mean depressed women are more likely to be diagnosed than depressed men?
I don't have many feelings.
Good, that means you're a real man :)


Nope, I have Autism, I'm not even close to being considered a real man.



Wolfprince
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17 Aug 2016, 7:55 pm

Many other users here have already hit the nail on the head. Autism is very overlooked amongst minorities, including women.

For the longest time, doctors thought that only boys could have Aspergers. In fact, the guy that the disorder was named after, Hans Asperger, originally claimed to have only observed the traits of the disorder in boys. We later learned that while girls can have the “standard” traits of ASD, it often presents itself differently in women and it often goes unnoticed. Additionally, many of the experiences of being a woman with autism are unique and different than the experiences that men have with the same condition. This is why there are so many books about the topic, and even why we have a Womens' Discussion board on Wrong Planet.