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Spectral Aurtist
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20 Jun 2018, 5:16 am

Dear_one wrote:
This is a period of overpopulation, so we compensate by adjusting popular culture to discourage reproduction. Any slight tendency to divert from normal interests finds encouragement from others. In 1966, I heard of an attempt at heterosexual anal sex, and all agreed that the guy just hadn't known any better at age 18. Now, even 9 year olds know anatomy, and how to avoid pregnancy many ways.



I think this is inelegant, slightly crass and not the whole story but I basically agree.
Unfortunately since I cannot keep my fingers out of hornets nests... I must expand upon it.

Since when has any historical social movement or philosophy agreed upon by people ever been more than trend waiting to be annexed by whatever agenda can manage to tame it into service? As I pause a moment to try and recall one I can't. They have all been used to steer people one way or another...Good people who were only looking for some direction and were sold some popular social movement instead.In time there is not one which will not eventually become distorted until it cannot be recognized by those who knew it when it began.

Of course people now much more commonly struggle with gender, but Since when do we prefer to be unsure or insecure over redefining what it means to be some thing through our personal contributions to it?

Social conventions are not trustworthy to my eyes, how have the ever served the good of anyone who didn't fit neatly into them? Don't they do the exact opposite of that? How can we say with any confidence that we contribute a some "Good" when we're busy so often defining some new evil through omission (all the things and all the people we didn't include in our new and perfect good).

Nothing is written in stone.
I walk a fine line...I know. But do I really need to choose between being true to my own observations and risking social judgement?........and that's the issue really ...isn't it? For the people dealing with gender related struggles, as it has been for racial minorities, as it will no doubt be for the autistic community....or whatever they want to call us in another 10 years. I think it has been this way for anyone who simply failed to fit...what some mass of people all agreed they should fit.

I suppose we are all of us collectively the only ones who can decide if merely being out of place is truly so great a crime that we need to continue endorsing the punishment of it...somehow, or if perhaps (as I hope)...we can just stop.

I don't need anyone to have a name for their difference to leave them to it, wish them a good day and mean it.
Why shouldn't it be like that? Why does each thing need to be named for it to be treated with understanding and empathy?

But one has to FIGHT for what one needs not because the world holds it from one...but because it will mean nothing if one does not and because to accept only what you are handed places you at the mercy of whoever handed it to you.
Meaning doesn't come from names it comes from life.

I hope I am not causing conflict by having a different perspective... if the forum for people who are neurologically predisposed to having a different perspective isn't a place to have one...I'm in real trouble.



aspiesavant
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20 Jun 2018, 7:19 am

Spectral Aurtist wrote:
Since when has any historical social movement or philosophy agreed upon by people ever been more than trend waiting to be annexed by whatever agenda can manage to tame it into service?


The Liberal's dilemma :

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Hollow_Cavallo
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20 Jun 2018, 8:28 am

You ought to try listening more and assuming less because you're asking people like me questions about something you've never experienced. I was born female. The estrogen did what estrogen does. I used to be a meth addict and used excessively, daily to the point of near death (it became a special interest, whoops). They are nothing alike. Your friend Is either lying or telling you what you want to hear. I'd like to be nice but you're coming off as very conceded. If you don't like trans people or the topic stop discussing it?

If you'd like I can explain to you how hormones work as I'm very versed in biology and it might help fill in some of the blanks you have for future discussions. That's far more interesting than discussing opinions about morality.



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20 Jun 2018, 9:54 am

Hollow_Cavallo wrote:
You ought to try listening more and assuming less because you're asking people like me questions about something you've never experienced.


Why do you think I ask so many questions?

Hollow_Cavallo wrote:
The estrogen did what estrogen does.


I'm a man who's never taken estrogen. So I don't really have much experience with what estrogen does.

What does it do?

Hollow_Cavallo wrote:
I used to be a meth addict and used excessively, daily to the point of near death (it became a special interest, whoops).


Experimenting with psychedelics and stimulants (empathogens in specific) was a special interest of mine as well for a while, and I still do it occasionally.

While I do not have experience with Methamphetamine, I have multiple experiences with Dextroamphetamine, Levoamphetamine, 2-Fluoromethamphetamine (2-FMA), 4-Fluoroamphetamine (4-FA), ,4-Methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA), Methylenedioxypyrovalerone (MDPV), 4-methylephedrone (Mephedrone) & 3,4-methylenedioxy-N-methylcathinone (Methylone).

All these stimulants are very different. In fact, I used to take a stimulant daily, but I took a different one depending on what my plans were for that day. Typically, I took Levoamphetamine or Dextroamphetamine when I needed intense focus and Methylone when I needed good social skills. Levoamphetamine tended to make me more tempered, though, when taking it too often. And Dextroamphetamine pretty much numbed me when taking them for a while. The others I never really found useful on a day to day basis.

Where I compared testosterone with amphetamines, I was referring specifically to Levoamphetamine (known here in Europe as "speed"). Do you have any experience with that specific substance?

Hollow_Cavallo wrote:
They are nothing alike. Your friend Is either lying or telling you what you want to hear.


He's not the kind of person to lie about this sort of thing or tell people what they want to hear.

Maybe it's you here wrongly assuming that all amphetamines are alike?

Hollow_Cavallo wrote:
I'd like to be nice but you're coming off as very conceded. If you don't like trans people or the topic stop discussing it?


I consider gender dysphoria a mental disorder, and I'm just trying to understand this disorder better the same way I'm trying to understand my Autism better.

I'm not judging you. I'm just trying to get a better idea of what makes you tick and how a person comes to a conclusion that he/she must change his/her sex one way or another.

Hollow_Cavallo wrote:
If you'd like I can explain to you how hormones work as I'm very versed in biology and it might help fill in some of the blanks you have for future discussions. That's far more interesting than discussing opinions about morality.


I somewhat understand what testosterone does, but I find estrogen a lot harder to grasp.

So please share your position on estrogen and what it does to the - male of female - mind.



Hollow_Cavallo
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20 Jun 2018, 10:29 am

In the psychology community transgenderism is only considered a disorder if the dysphoria is so great it inhibits normal functioning. In that case the only cure recommended is transitioning anyways. Estrogen is associated with increased serotonin, higher sociability, and more complex emotion but in reality it has a more important role in fat distribution, sexual function, and oxytocin to help bond you to others and your children. The effects level out and stop being noticeable much like taking an antidepressant or anything else.

Oh Jesus I hated MDMA lol. I had no idea it would be like it was. That was one time off for me. I don't have experience with the substance you mentioned but if testosterone is like an amphetamine does that mean you constantly every minute feel like you're on levo? If so what's the point of taking more?

Your brain is designed for hormones and they behave normally inside a person. Drugs are foreign substances that exploit and molest brain systems designed for neurotransmitters like dopamine by blocking receptors from performing reuptake.



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20 Jun 2018, 6:05 pm

Quote:
Maybe it has. But I very much doubt it was even remotely as common as it is today. The same applies to homosexuality.


Or they were just in the closest because they didn't know about gender identity disorder then so they suffered in silence or they committed suicide. Some were even hospitalized if caught.


Quote:
In the case of, "transgender" people, it's pretty similar. When many people see someone they recognize as "transgender", they think of mental instability. And even with a perfect resume and the perfect experience, this can turn-off an employer and make him/her choose someone else.



But how are they going to know someone is trans if they never tell them?


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21 Jun 2018, 4:58 am

Hollow_Cavallo wrote:
The effects level out and stop being noticeable much like taking an antidepressant or anything else.


Does the same apply to a woman taking testosterone?
Do those effects also level out and and stop being noticeable?

Hollow_Cavallo wrote:
Oh Jesus I hated MDMA lol. I had no idea it would be like it was. That was one time off for me.


I can appreciate MDMA, but I strongly prefer Methylone (which is also an empathogen). MDMA sorta makes me feel like a little kid again, whereas Methylone actually makes me a more balanced, more socially adjusted person. According to my girlfriend and friends, I'm a lot less Autistic in how I act when I'm under the influence of Methylone.

Unfortunately, Methylone is very hard to get since it's been made illegal. It's a shame, really, as it was useful for anything from job interviews to dating and relationship therapy.

Hollow_Cavallo wrote:
If testosterone is like an amphetamine does that mean you constantly every minute feel like you're on levo? If so what's the point of taking more?


My girlfriend describes the state Methylone puts her in as the state she's in naturally when she's at her best. When everything in her life is going exactly as it should, she's had an amazing day and she's enjoying the company of people she loves while drinking a cocktail with the sun in her face, that state is very comparable with when she takes Methylone. I guess you could say that Methylone is very similar to my girlfriend's "natural high".

Much the same, Levoamphetamine is very similar to my "natural high", my state of "hyperfocus" when I feel at the top of the world and I can work for 10 hours straight with laser sharp focus.

When you are in your state of "natural high", it is indeed pointless to take a substance that brings you in a similar state. However, those are typically quite rare. And in any other context, such a substance can be very useful.

Here's an interesting video of an Autistic man describing his experiences under the influence of amphetamines :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJ24xvMU9jI

Hollow_Cavallo wrote:
Your brain is designed for hormones and they behave normally inside a person. Drugs are foreign substances that exploit and molest brain systems designed for neurotransmitters like dopamine by blocking receptors from performing reuptake.


Psychedelics like LSD maybe foreign, but - when taken under the right circumstances - a single experience with a psychedelic can be more helpful than decades of therapy and a lifetime of ordinary life experience.

Much the same, stimulants can and do have their therapeutic use for people a neurochemical imbalance. In my case, especially Methylone has done wonders, by pretty much eliminating any negative symptom of Autism whenever I'm under its influence.

But sure, any substance that changes your mental state can be abused and you should be wary of that in all times. And substances like Levoamphetamine, Methamphetamine & 2-FMA are particularly addictive and can be very destructive when taking them on a daily basis for a prolonged time. I definitely won't disagree with that. I have several friends who struggled seriously with a Levoamphetamine addiction, and quitting using it on a regular basis wasn't exactly easy for me either.

That doesn't mean these substances aren't useful, though, for helping people deal with a chemical imbalance. Adderall, for example, is often used to treat ADHD and contains both Levoamphetamine and Dextroamphetamine.

League_Girl wrote:
Quote:
Maybe it has. But I very much doubt it was even remotely as common as it is today. The same applies to homosexuality.


Or they were just in the closest because they didn't know about gender identity disorder then so they suffered in silence or they committed suicide. Some were even hospitalized if caught.


I'm not convinced.

The more average a person is, the more susceptible he/she is to all sorts of cultural influences, from religion and ideology to your friends and family. This influence often goes very deep and affects people's most intimate sense of identity and the world around them.

It is hard to overestimate the way people are influenced by the culture they live in.

League_Girl wrote:
But how are they going to know someone is trans if they never tell them?


Few people manage to pull off transitioning to someone of the other sex without other people noticing that's not their birth sex.



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21 Jun 2018, 3:55 pm

Quote:
I'm not convinced.

The more average a person is, the more susceptible he/she is to all sorts of cultural influences, from religion and ideology to your friends and family. This influence often goes very deep and affects people's most intimate sense of identity and the world around them.

It is hard to overestimate the way people are influenced by the culture they live in.


You need to look up transgender history and you will find historical transgender people. Start here:

https://www.ranker.com/list/transgender ... evon-ashby

And then starts doing your research and look them up and read more and you will eventfully learn how some would be hospitalized for believing they were another gender or being charged with fraud for marrying another person because they had pulled it off without their partner knowing. I don't know either how their partner never found out.


Transgender people have always been around. People didn't all of a sudden decide to start questioning their identity and start coming out as trans and living as another gender. Maybe more are doing it now because of awareness and I don't disagree with you there. But I do disagree about them not living in hiding and keeping it to themselves and some committing suicide because they couldn't be who they were.

Quote:
Few people manage to pull off transitioning to someone of the other sex without other people noticing that's not their birth sex.


If you move or switch jobs, how is anyone going to know? People who come out as trans, especially students and kids, they switch schools for a reason. But you have to be able to pass as cis. This gal here is trans:

https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=ht ... _B0I7wEwGw

Her name is Jazz Jennings and I wouldn't even guess she was born male if I didn't recognize her.

If more people understood that trans people are not crazy and delusional and mentally deranged, they won't face employment discrimination.


If you want to try and have a better understanding, try to imagine how you would feel if you one day woke up as a woman but you are still you on the inside. How would you feel about being inside a woman's body?

What about if you all of a sudden had to start wearing women clothes and you had to stop wearing your clothes you have? Or what if you had to start wearing clothes you do not feel comfortable with? I imagine that is how being trans must feel like. I know I don't feel comfortable wearing all mature looking clothes but I can do it for special occasions because it's only temporary. But what if I had to wear men's clothes and never female clothes again, I would not like it. That is what being trans must feel like because it's a daily and ongoing thing, not temporary. I am lucky no one cares what I wear so I can still be myself vs a guy wearing female clothes. I say trans men are more privileged because it's more acceptable for females to wear male clothing so if they are living as male and dressing as male, people would just think they were a tom boy. But just imagine if you were referred to as a woman or as a she or her, how would you feel? I imagine that is how trans people feel too if they are referred to by their birth gender.


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Aavikkorotta
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21 Jun 2018, 5:21 pm

I'm still going through my data looking for correlations, but I'll share these prematurely. If the blue or red bar is darkened/vivider, it means it's been calculated to be a statistically significant correlation.

Image Image

So according to my data, gender dysphoria is related to Asperger's. But not necessarily for males. And there is a correlation between asexuality and gender dysphoria in males, but I wouldn't know whether it would be a causation in either direction.

aspiesavant wrote:
A fairly recent study suggests that women with more male-like brain anatomy three times more likely to be diagnosed with autism.

Interesting. Your comment inspired me to check the correlation within gender, as seen above.

aspiesavant wrote:
Sex is biological. Gender is a social construct.

It should be obvious that the best way to match biology and a social construct would be to modify the social construct and not biology.

How is that even controversial?

It sure isn't hate.

This. Yes. Amen.

aspiesavant wrote:
And what makes you so certain that mutilating your body is a healthy response to gender dysphoria when there's ample examples of people feeling more miserable after than before their surgery (with some even changing their sex back to their original sex)?

That was an interesting article.

jon85 wrote:
Thinking about it, I'm pretty sure this whole 'change a social construct' as opposed to changing biology sounds a whole lot like the 'institutes' that were available some 30 years or so ago. And they were inhumane. Forcing people to adhere to what they considered a social 'norm' was and believing a transgender or gay person was clinically insane and they definitely were not treat with respect. I'm unsure if you intend it to mean it that way, but what you describe is most definitely the same thing. An outdated approach which most certainly does not belong in today's world.

I was under the impression that "change a social construct" was not meant to change the mind of the person, but rather to address the societal stereotypes imposed on them: stop expecting masculine things from males or feminine things from females, because sometimes men are feminine or females are masculine. And that's okay; it's part of personality.

League_Girl wrote:
I never felt anything about my gender. I am just female because that is what I am and was assigned with. I don't understand how people can be confused about gender, just look between your legs and look at your own body unless you are intersex. I am not talking about trans here obviously.

As a kid I was a tomboy and still I didn't feel confused. I played in the mud, played in the sand, climbed trees, played with action figures. I like computers and video games. I am not really into fashion or make up. Still I am not confused about gender. I mostly wear pants and shorts. Only time I ever dress up is for special occasions. I wear dresses when it's hot out or shorts.

My son likes Shopkins and he isn't confused about his gender because of it. He even plays with my old Barbies sometimes and my daughter plays with mega blocks.

I don't get how cis people can be confused about their own gender. f**k gender roles. Who cares what you like, that doesn't define your gender. Are people gatekeeping about gender or what? "I can't be female because I am surgeon. Am I really a female or does this mean I am trans, am I agender?"

aspiesavant wrote:
Tomboys are basically androgynous women who look, think, feel and/or behave like a man but who still identify as female. Tomboys are especially common among Lesbians, but they can be straight as well.

I would say I have an androgynous personality/mind. I still look female such as wearing long hair and dresses, but my dresses aren't prissy and I wouldn't mind trying baldness except that it would freak out half the town.
I mostly ignored puberty. It was a mild inconvenience.

aspiesavant wrote:
Are you aware of any cases where people are administered hormones corresponding with the sex assigned at birth instead of hormones of the opposite sex? I wonder how the results of both approaches compare.

That would be interesting to see!

aspiesavant wrote:
It is my impression that the more traditional gender roles are disappearing from our culture and the more kids are raised by single parents, the more people start questioning their gender because they have some stereotypical concept of what it means to be male or female and they fail to relate to that concept. In those cases, I definitely don't think sex changes are good approach. It seems to me that all they're missing is a healthy role model of their birth sex.

Ah, that's a good theory.
I grew up with a dad who has a stereotypically-feminine personality and a mom with a stereotypically-masculine personality.

aspiesavant wrote:
Many people only start questioning their gender or sexual orientation after they hear of others doing the same.

I even momentarily wondered whether I could get away with identifying as a eunuch. :p


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22 Jun 2018, 5:36 am

League_Girl wrote:
Transgender people have always been around. People didn't all of a sudden decide to start questioning their identity and start coming out as trans and living as another gender.


There is a huge gap between what people feel and how they interpret those feelings. While what we feel may be innate to us, how we interpret those feelings is heavily influenced by many layers of cultures passed to on since birth.

And even our feelings / emotions as not nearly as much our own as we like to think that are, since these are also heavily influenced by our environment and our life experiences.

Sure, homosexuality and gender dysphoria probably have always existed in among a tiny minority of the population, but the reason it's become so common today is because it's become "cool" to be "LBGTQ". I'm 100% the vast majority of these "LBGTQ" kids would have been perfectly normal straight "cis" kids if they're grown up in a normal society instead of the deranged, dysfunctional society we live in today.

League_Girl wrote:
If you move or switch jobs, how is anyone going to know?


Just looking at someone and/or hearing them talk can tell you most of the time that that person was born a different sex. At least for most people, it's usually pretty easy to spot.

League_Girl wrote:
Her name is Jazz Jennings and I wouldn't even guess she was born male if I didn't recognize her.


"She" can "pass as cis" because "her" face looks pretty feminine. It probably always did.

Many - if not most - are not that lucky :

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

League_Girl wrote:
If more people understood that trans people are not crazy and delusional and mentally deranged, they won't face employment discrimination.


If more people understood that Autism can actually be a benefit in many jobs, people with Autism would actually be preferred for those types of jobs instead of ignored.

Unfortunately, we have to deal with the real world here, and you can't just change people's prejudices, whether they're justified of not. Especially when it involves money or sex, most people prefer to avoid risks. And then, prejudices often trump everything else!

League_Girl wrote:
If you want to try and have a better understanding, try to imagine how you would feel if you one day woke up as a woman but you are still you on the inside. How would you feel about being inside a woman's body?


Except for the monthly burden of periods, I don't really see the issue.

The obsession millennials have with gender is totally alien to me. My gender is but a tiny part of what defines me as a person, and I don't really care that much about it either way.

League_Girl wrote:
What about if you all of a sudden had to start wearing women clothes and you had to stop wearing your clothes you have? Or what if you had to start wearing clothes you do not feel comfortable with?


That's a normal part of life.

I've had jobs in the past with dress codes I didn't like. I've had to go to fancy dinners or parties with dress codes I didn't like. So f***ing what?

My clothes don't define me. As long as I can wear whatever the f*** I want in my own house, I don't really see the problem.

League_Girl wrote:
But what if I had to wear men's clothes and never female clothes again, I would not like it.


Why? What's your problem with wearing men's clothes?

As you pointed out yourself, a benefit of being a woman is actually that you can wear both men's clothes and women's clothes without people looking at you funny. So what's the big deal about wearing men's clothes?

League_Girl wrote:
But just imagine if you were referred to as a woman or as a she or her, how would you feel?


People have don't that when standing behind me, because of my long hair.

So what? People make mistakes. I don't get why so many millennials make a big deal out of this!

Aavikkorotta wrote:
So according to my data, gender dysphoria is related to Asperger's. But not necessarily for males.


... which is to be expected if Autism is a form of hyper-masculinity and the brains of women with Autism are significantly more masculine than those of other women.

Aavikkorotta wrote:
Interesting. Your comment inspired me to check the correlation within gender, as seen above.


See also https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjE_yaJjXE8 on that.

Aavikkorotta wrote:
I was under the impression that "change a social construct" was not meant to change the mind of the person, but rather to address the societal stereotypes imposed on them: stop expecting masculine things from males or feminine things from females, because sometimes men are feminine or females are masculine. And that's okay; it's part of personality.


Except for physical traits, what people define as "masculine" or "feminine" is itself very much culturally defined. So when you say we should "stop expecting masculine things from males", we already make the assumption that those things are inherently "masculine".

Aavikkorotta wrote:
I would say I have an androgynous personality/mind. I still look female such as wearing long hair and dresses, but my dresses aren't prissy and I wouldn't mind trying baldness except that it would freak out half the town.


Short hair can be very attractive in women, especially in tomboys.
Baldness rarely is, so I wouldn't go for it if you consider it important to be sexually attractive to members of either sex.

Aavikkorotta wrote:
Ah, that's a good theory.
I grew up with a dad who has a stereotypically-feminine personality and a mom with a stereotypically-masculine personality.


That still sounds like a fairly healthy relationship. Even in homosexual relationships, there's usually one partner that's more masculine and one that's more feminine.

A healthy relationship usually involves a partner who is very complementary to us. For very masculine men, that typically means a very feminine woman. But for men with a more feminine personality, a woman with a more masculine personality should be a better match!



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22 Jun 2018, 12:45 pm

aspiesavant wrote:
League_Girl wrote:
But just imagine if you were referred to as a woman or as a she or her, how would you feel?


People have don't that when standing behind me, because of my long hair.

So what? People make mistakes. I don't get why so many millennials make a big deal out of this!

Finnish doesn't have gendered pronouns, and my Finnish friends will sometimes confuse she/he in conversation. I once heard one call his mom "he."

aspiesavant wrote:
Aavikkorotta wrote:
I would say I have an androgynous personality/mind. I still look female such as wearing long hair and dresses, but my dresses aren't prissy and I wouldn't mind trying baldness except that it would freak out half the town.


Short hair can be very attractive in women, especially in tomboys.
Baldness rarely is, so I wouldn't go for it if you consider it important to be sexually attractive to members of either sex.

I don't care about being sexually attractive. I would like to remain somewhat socially attractive, though, so people don't mind looking at me in public.
Mostly I'd just like to briefly experience what it would be like to wash my scalp without hair in the way.

aspiesavant wrote:
A healthy relationship usually involves a partner who is very complementary to us. For very masculine men, that typically means a very feminine woman. But for men with a more feminine personality, a woman with a more masculine personality should be a better match!

Yeah, that's dualism: match an NF (feminine) with an ST (masculine). My suitor and I are both STs, though. We get along well, but don't really compliment each other.


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22 Jun 2018, 12:53 pm

I'd just like to point out that the study mentioned previously to show that transpeople were not happy with their gender reassignment was dated 1973-2003. That's 15 years ago, and a lot has changed since then both in medical developments and in society's attitudes.

Below are a few examples that I found with a simple google of studies and reports showing a much higher satisfaction rate.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/0092623X.2017.1326190
https://www.verywellmind.com/sex-reassignment-surgery-srs-and-happiness-1123904
https://www.theverge.com/2018/3/22/17144814/gender-confirmation-surgery-quality-of-life-transgender-people-dysphoria
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4261554/

There are so many factors involved in a person's happiness or depression that I think it is not helpful to make generalisations about whether transition is a good idea or not- that is up to each person as they explore their own understanding of themselves.

Much as I agree that a lot of gender roles are social contructs, there is definately something deeper going on with the trans people I know both online and in real life. I am cis-female, I still like a lot of boyish things but although I do not fit a female stereotype I still very much feel that being female is part of my identity. Most of the transpeople that I know have indicated that they have known that their gender was not right from their earliest childhood memories of about 5 years old. As someone who is pansexual, I can also say that I experienced differences in my sexuality long before I ever logged onto the internet or talked to anyone else about it. I think that having an online community has helped me give names to my feelings and understand myself better, in the same way that learning about Asperger's online has helped me understand that side of myself. It didn't suddenly appear because I heard about, it was there all along.

I know that one of the difficulties of being autistic is that is difficult to see things from other people's perspective. We do things and think in the way that seems logical to us and struggle to get our heads around why other people behave differently. But the truth is that just because we don't feel or understand something does not mean that it is not real for someone else. I think that the best way to understand the issues surrounding transgender people is not to look at statistics and reports, but to listen to the stories of transpeople themselves. Their voices are the ones that will help you learn the most.


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You are very likely neurodiverse (Aspie)


aspiesavant
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22 Jun 2018, 1:22 pm

Aavikkorotta wrote:
Yeah, that's dualism: match an NF (feminine) with an ST (masculine). My suitor and I are both STs, though. We get along well, but don't really compliment each other.


I'm INTP myself. As friends, I typically go for people who are also INTP or close to it (for example INTJ or INFP).

My girlfriend is an ESFJ.

Goth Fairy wrote:


I spotted this in one of these studies :

"The very high rates of subjective satisfaction and the surgical outcomes indicate that gender reassignment surgery is beneficial. These findings must be interpreted with caution, however, because fewer than half of the questionnaires were returned."

That alone is reason to question the results. What if the majority who didn't respond didn't do so because they weren't happy with their transition and they didn't want to share that with a total stranger?

Goth Fairy wrote:
Much as I agree that a lot of gender roles are social contructs, there is definately something deeper going on with the trans people I know both online and in real life. I am cis-female, I still like a lot of boyish things but although I do not fit a female stereotype I still very much feel that being female is part of my identity.


Just a couple of decades ago, few people ever thought about their gender or their sexuality as all. If you had a penis, you were a boy and you were into girls. If you had a vagina, you were a girl and you were into boys. And that's the way it's been for centuries. Sure, there were exceptions, but those were a tiny minority and the idea of changing one's sex or being attracted to someone of the same gender simply wasn't something most people would even contemplate.

This whole obsession with gender and sexual orientation among millennials is a very recent phenomenon, and it appears to be directly linked with both hardcore porn becoming mainstream and easily accessible, as well as with subversive neo-Marxist political movements that are trying to destroying the traditional family because it doesn't fit into their dystopian ideals. What better way to destroy the family than making kids confused about their gender and sexuality?

Goth Fairy wrote:
I think that the best way to understand the issues surrounding transgender people is not to look at statistics and reports, but to listen to the stories of transpeople themselves. Their voices are the ones that will help you learn the most.


I've communicated with several people who believed they "have a personal relationship with Jesus". I know for a fact that they genuinely believe that their God talks directly to them as an individual. But that doesn't mean I believe that is in fact what's happening.

The notion of "having a personal relationship with Jesus" is a delusion, specific to certain Christian denominations. And the fact that it is specific to certain Christian denominations tells me that this is a delusion that is developed and grown because of these the very specific cultural background these people have. Basically, I'm pretty confident that these people interpret a part of their subconsciousness as something that comes from outside, and due to their religious bias they interpret that as the voice of God.

I suspect transgenderism is a delusion similar to the delusion of "having a personal relationship with Jesus". And just like the latter, there appears to be a strong cultural influence in how the former delusion develops.



Misery
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22 Jun 2018, 4:43 pm

Hoboy, so, where do I begin with this one... hmm.

Well, my experiences with this are a bit confusing, in some ways. Do I technically have gender dysphoria? Heck if I know... only a professional could truly diagnose that one. But I'll say I've always had issues with it. I suppose the best way that I could put it is that I tend to lean towards androgyny.... the idea of being both or neither, really. Well, mostly, there's a tendancy to lean more towards the female side of that. But you get the idea.

Now, to be honest, I'm not exactly the masculine sort to begin with. Even without doing anything special or putting anything resembling effort into my appearance, I still generally look feminine (to the point where I'll be referred to as female by random people at times, when I'm out in public). Both my face, and even my body-shape goes towards that. Partly due to that, I also let my hair grow long (I dont really style it any particular way though, too lazy, and even without combing it everyone seems to think I DID comb/style it, so... yeah that makes sense, doesnt it...). So those physical traits may factor into this... heck if I know. But considering how I feel about this whole issue, I can appreciate that those traits are there.

Clothing style and whatnot also tends to go along with that. I tend to wear extremely neutral things that either gender could wear, because I bloody well can. Which oddly ends up making me stand out a bit more, but.... whatever. I have crossdressed before though (including things like mini-skirts and whatnot and even a backless one a few times), usually in a convention/cosplay setting because I know nobody will yell at me about it there (whereas in a normal public setting, people are... unpredictable, at best). I generally like doing it (when I get over my general nervousness), and it tends to look good, which just furthers all of this in my mind really. I tend to feel good when doing any of that. Much better than usual day-to-day where I'm expected to fit into the male role at least somewhat (even if I still end up ignoring half of that because screw it).

And no, none of this is me following trends or anything. I'm usually the LAST one to know anything about any trends; I dont follow social media, the news, or much of anything else, because screw it. It doesnt matter to me what "society" does or doesnt do. Frankly, society can take it's stupid "trends" and shove them where even the roaches wont go. And it's not like I really converse with anyone anyway... I tend to keep to myself alot, even if out in public, and rarely speak, as I tend to assume that most people are idiots or jerks. I also dont follow the political side of things. In fact, I *loathe* politics. I think politics is freaking disgusting and make a point of not knowing a bloody thing about it. I've no clue whatsoever what the current political issues are, or what the different "sides" mean, and if someone were to try to tell me about them, I'd fling objects at them until they left the area (and have in fact done this before). Dont know, dont want to know. Would prefer to NOT involve myself in that toxic nonsense. So as a rule, with that all in mind, I tend to not be influenced by popular whatever due to not even knowing that such-and-such thing is popular or well known (and also simply not giving a crap). No, when it comes to this whole issue, I've always felt this way. Even waaaaaayyyyyyyyyy back during my school days. Back then though, I didnt really DO anything about it and sure didnt admit it... I was bullied alot back then, and really didnt want that to get worse, so generally I had more paranoia. THESE days I'll do whatever I bloody well feel like, but... yeah, back then was different. Throughout my school years I had shorter hair and had to dress as more of a typical male. Hated it. And my parents dictated my appearance back then anyway.

As it is, my parents, well.... they MUST suspect something at this point. Have to. Would need to be astonishingly dense if they dont. But I know them well enough to know that they wouldnt bring up a topic with me if they think it'll make me uncomfortable or whatever, so... they dont. They mean well in that one but it can cause issues at times, as I'll tend to *never* bring up anything at all unless directly asked. No, I dont know why.... just how I am.

As for friends of mine, THEY all know. They've even seen me dressed up and everything (and not one of them was surprised when I did that the first time... still not sure what to think of that one). I've been lucky to be blessed with friends and family that are very accepting people, instead of being bigoted jerks.

Still, the idea of bringing it up with my parents (particularly my father, who is always very easy to talk to) has been on my mind more and more, as one way or another the whole issue has just been bothering me more and more. It's always been at least somewhat a source of stress/frustration, but... lately that's risen a bit. I'm aware I'm going to have to just go ahead and freaking do it, probably sooner than later, as I do know their support will end up being a good thing. Just... have to get past my own embarrassment about it.

So..... yeah. That's that. That's my experience with... whatever that is. It's all confusing and kinda frustrating, and frankly I've never understood why people make such a bloody big deal out of it anyway. But I am the way I am, it really is that simple.


There, that's my useless input on that, you're welcome.



Goth Fairy
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24 Jun 2018, 3:47 am

aspiesavant wrote:
I spotted this in one of these studies :

"The very high rates of subjective satisfaction and the surgical outcomes indicate that gender reassignment surgery is beneficial. These findings must be interpreted with caution, however, because fewer than half of the questionnaires were returned."

That alone is reason to question the results. What if the majority who didn't respond didn't do so because they weren't happy with their transition and they didn't want to share that with a total stranger?


Indeed, the statistics are not fully reliable, which is why you cannot use them to prove things one way or the other. The same can be said for studies showing both positive and negative findings. It depends very much on where they find the people they interview.

aspiesavant wrote:
Just a couple of decades ago, few people ever thought about their gender or their sexuality as all. If you had a penis, you were a boy and you were into girls. If you had a vagina, you were a girl and you were into boys. And that's the way it's been for centuries. Sure, there were exceptions, but those were a tiny minority and the idea of changing one's sex or being attracted to someone of the same gender simply wasn't something most people would even contemplate.

This whole obsession with gender and sexual orientation among millennials is a very recent phenomenon, and it appears to be directly linked with both hardcore porn becoming mainstream and easily accessible, as well as with subversive neo-Marxist political movements that are trying to destroying the traditional family because it doesn't fit into their dystopian ideals. What better way to destroy the family than making kids confused about their gender and sexuality?


That's totally not true. Homosexual relationships have been around for a long time. We know, for example, that it was common in anceint Greece- even the Plato wrote about it! I read a lesbian novel written in 1928, called the Well of Loneliness. The fact that verses in the Bible speak against "men lying with men" shows that it was happening at that time, otherwise they wouldn't need to tell people not to do it. If you want more examples, check https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_history

(I'm not a millennial, I'm 41 by the way, and I don't even watch porn!)

Falling in love with someone of the same gender does not destroy anyone's family, except perhaps when the parents refuse to accept their children as they are and kick them out the house.

aspiesavant wrote:
I've communicated with several people who believed they "have a personal relationship with Jesus". I know for a fact that they genuinely believe that their God talks directly to them as an individual. But that doesn't mean I believe that is in fact what's happening.

The notion of "having a personal relationship with Jesus" is a delusion, specific to certain Christian denominations. And the fact that it is specific to certain Christian denominations tells me that this is a delusion that is developed and grown because of these the very specific cultural background these people have. Basically, I'm pretty confident that these people interpret a part of their subconsciousness as something that comes from outside, and due to their religious bias they interpret that as the voice of God.

I suspect transgenderism is a delusion similar to the delusion of "having a personal relationship with Jesus". And just like the latter, there appears to be a strong cultural influence in how the former delusion develops.


This is a really offensive thing to say. Just because you do not experience or believe in something does not mean that it is not true or possible.


_________________
Your neurodiverse (Aspie) score: 149 of 200
Your neurotypical (non-autistic) score: 73 of 200
You are very likely neurodiverse (Aspie)


aspiesavant
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24 Jun 2018, 6:49 am

Goth Fairy wrote:
Indeed, the statistics are not fully reliable, which is why you cannot use them to prove things one way or the other. The same can be said for studies showing both positive and negative findings. It depends very much on where they find the people they interview.


Unfortunately, this allows a lot of people with an agenda to push an agenda driven pseudoscientific position on the matter and getting it passed off a science.

Ever since Alfred Kinsey's infamous "Kinsey Reports", the study of human sexuality and gender hasn't been the same.

Goth Fairy wrote:
That's totally not true. Homosexual relationships have been around for a long time. We know, for example, that it was common in anceint Greece- even the Plato wrote about it!


The Greeks had a phenomenon known as pederasty, which AFAIK is a sexualized form of the traditional male mentor-pupil relationship. It existed not as an alternative to a heterosexual relationship between a man and a woman but as a supplement to it. A Pederastic relationship between a mentor and his pupil was never intended to replace the marriage between a man and a woman, but to exist alongside it. This means that a man would typically be married to a woman and have a pederastic relationship with his pupil, and his retationship with his pupil wouldn't be considered as cheating on his wife or vice versa. Nor would a pederastic relationship every be eligible for marriage. At least, that's how I understand the phenomenon of pederasty.

With respect to the vikings, I've ready somewhere that it was tolerated of men to have sex with another man, but also that the man taking the "female" role in this relationship would be regarded as effeminate and that he has a lower social status because of it. I've also read that the vikings raped their enemy warriors when captured as a symbolic act of "emasculation". I'm not sure this is accurate, though, as I never saw any confirmation elsewhere.

While sexual acts between two men or between two men may have existed in other cultures in various time periods, I'm not familiar with any civilization where the sexual relationship between two men or between a two women was common and where such a sexual relationship was treated as equivalent to the relationship between a man and a woman. I can't think of any culture prior to ours a decade or two ago that allowed gay marriage.

Goth Fairy wrote:
I read a lesbian novel written in 1928, called the Well of Loneliness.


The 1920s were already very degenerate / decadent by 18th century standards.

Goth Fairy wrote:
The fact that verses in the Bible speak against "men lying with men" shows that it was happening at that time, otherwise they wouldn't need to tell people not to do it.


Sure, it happened. But that doesn't mean it was common.

Also, "men lying with men" was punishable by death.

Goth Fairy wrote:
I'm 41 by the way, and I don't even watch porn!


Good! Porn degrades and poisons human sexuality. The less you watch it, the better!

Goth Fairy wrote:
Falling in love with someone of the same gender does not destroy anyone's family, except perhaps when the parents refuse to accept their children as they are and kick them out the house.


The traditional nuclear family (one man, one woman & their children) is the foundation of Western civilization. And the marriage between a man and a woman is intended to provide a save, stable haven for offspring, which needs a capable father as a healthy male role model and a capable mother as a healthy female role model.

Ever since the 1960s, the family has been under attack from all sides, and traditional nuclear families have become rather the exception than the norm. And this is probably one of the main reasons why so many kids today are struggling with their identity and their sexuality.

Goth Fairy wrote:
This is a really offensive thing to say.


The word "offensive" is so overused today, and such a hindrance for intellectual discourse.

What truly matters, is not whether a statement offends someone. What truly matters, is whether that statement is true or not. No matter how much the truth may offend someone, an inconvenient truth is always more important than a comfortable lie!

It is NEVER EVER morally justified to silence an opinion just because someone might be offended by it!

Goth Fairy wrote:
Just because you do not experience or believe in something does not mean that it is not true or possible.


Just because you do experience or believe in something, that does not make it true.

No matter how many people may share the delusional belief that they're in a "personal relationship with Jesus" and no matter how staunchly they believe this delusion, that doesn't make it any less a delusion!

And yes, people tend to feel offended and react hostile when you try to break their delusions. And maybe people are happier if they stick in their delusional thinking. They say "ignorance is bliss", and I'm sure there's truth in that. But if I look at the bigger picture, I'm not convinced that feeding delusions really the best way to go.

Nothing feeds prejudice and bigotry as much as delusional thinking! None have killed as cheerfully as they have in the name of a delusion!