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QFT
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02 Jul 2019, 12:42 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
League_Girl wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
The people diagnosed with Aspergers were expected to understand this “hidden meaning”, not a strength of people with this diagnosis. Some Aspies did understand and others did not and became ableist towards “autistics”.



How so?

Occasionally on this site and elsewhere you do get Aspie supremacist sentiments that say don’t put me in the same category as those autistic people. I am not talking about those who fear negative consequences from others putting them in the same category as autistics but because they do see themselves as superior. I suspect at least some of the time those saying they fear others associating them with autistics do not themselves want to be associated with “inferior” autistics.


Once again it's all in context. I had two ex-s that referred to me as having autism instead of calling it Asperger: one in 2006 and the other one in 2009. In 2006 I thought "hmm it's interesting she thought that way" and didn't take it personally at all; in 2009 I took it very personally and made it a point of arguments. Did my views change between 2006 and 2009? Nope. Rather it's because the ex in 2009 looked down at me for it and the ex in 2006 didn't. So who was ablist here? Not me: the 2009 ex was. I might have "sounded" ablist when I tried to make it a point, in 2009, to separate Asperger from autism, but I was really responding to HER ablism, as evident from the fact that I didn't do it in 2006.

On a side note, back when I was in high school, I ran into a severely autistic+Downs kid who was non-verbal, rocking all day long, and making weird sounds. Yes he had both autism and Downs. But there are others who only have autism without anything else and are just like him, at least I assume they are. So it's pretty hard not to be ablism toweards those kinds of kids. Maybe when aspies don't want to be labeled as autistic they are concerned about being lumped together with the kind of kids I just described, while they have nothing against high functioning ones.



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02 Jul 2019, 1:04 pm

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It is suggested that Asperger's syndrome is a distinct syndrome from either schizoid or schizotypal personality disorder, but may be a risk factor for the development of schizoid personality disorder.


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3256377

Quote:
There may be substantial difficulty in distinguishing Asperger syndrome (AS), sometimes called "schizoid disorder of childhood," from SPD. But while AS is an autism-spectrum disorder, SPD is classified as a “schizophrenia-like” personality disorder. There is some overlap as some people with autism also qualify for a diagnosis of schizotypal or schizoid PD.

However, one of the distinguishing features of schizoid PD is a restricted affect and an impaired capacity for emotional experience and expression. Persons with AS are “hypo-mentalizers”, i.e., they fail to recognize social cues such as verbal hints, body language and gesticulation, but those with schizophrenia- like personality disorders tend to be “hyper-mentalizers,” overinterpreting such cues in a generally suspicious way (see imprinted brain theory). Although they may have been socially isolated from childhood onward, most people with schizoid personality disorder displayed well-adapted social behavior as children, along with apparently normal emotional function. SPD does also not involve impairments in nonverbal communication such as a lack of eye contact, unusual prosody or a pattern of restricted interests or repetitive behaviors. Compared to AS, SPD is characterized by prominent conduct disorder, better adult adjustment, less severely impaired social interaction and a slightly increased risk of schizophrenia.[49][50]



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizoid_ ... _diagnosis



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02 Jul 2019, 7:03 pm

Maybe a bigger problem occurs when people try to expand the description of dyspraxia to include key ASD symptoms, namely trouble with socialising, which creates confusion "where does the spectrum end". The simple solution would be to say that the two diagnoses are not mutually exclusive. For example, Natalie Williams was diagnosed with dyspraxia, but I am sure what she actually has is a combination of Asperger's and dyspraxia. And yes, therefore, she is, without a doubt, on the autism spectrum since "difficulty socialising" and "restricted/repeditive behaviour" are the two hallmarks, and if you read her blog, both of these are pretty darn apparent.

Nonetheless, although I can't find much support to knock Asperger's off the autism spectrum, that doesn't mean I can't find any. Through a quick search using DuckDuckGo; "how similar are autism and asperger's", I came up some differences between the two conditions:

The top difference between the two is Asperger's doesn't have a delay in language development, therefore doesn't get diagnosed usually until a later age. Asperger's is also supposed to be more likely to be accompanied by giftedness. People with Asperger's are more likely to at least try interacting with others.

Supposedly, those with Asperger's are more like to be depressed, because they're more aware of their difficulties socialising.

Finally, there are some brain differences between autism and asperger's, namely the latter usually have stronger connections in the left hemisphere, and have a larger and better developed language processing area.

What we really would need are more careful comparison studies. Until then all that we can do is state our opinions.


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03 Jul 2019, 2:38 am

I think the main thing is not to contradict someone when they are describing themselves. If someone has found

something they identify with, and someone else keeps describing them as something else, they are going to get

upset. That doesn't mean they are anti the other thing or think it's inferior. How people identify themselves is very

important to them, and it's undermining them to insist on identifying them against their own view of themselves. I

mean it's basically telling someone they are too stupid to know what they are.



magz
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03 Jul 2019, 2:58 am

firemonkey wrote:
Quote:
It is suggested that Asperger's syndrome is a distinct syndrome from either schizoid or schizotypal personality disorder, but may be a risk factor for the development of schizoid personality disorder.


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3256377

Quote:
There may be substantial difficulty in distinguishing Asperger syndrome (AS), sometimes called "schizoid disorder of childhood," from SPD. But while AS is an autism-spectrum disorder, SPD is classified as a “schizophrenia-like” personality disorder. There is some overlap as some people with autism also qualify for a diagnosis of schizotypal or schizoid PD.

However, one of the distinguishing features of schizoid PD is a restricted affect and an impaired capacity for emotional experience and expression. Persons with AS are “hypo-mentalizers”, i.e., they fail to recognize social cues such as verbal hints, body language and gesticulation, but those with schizophrenia- like personality disorders tend to be “hyper-mentalizers,” overinterpreting such cues in a generally suspicious way (see imprinted brain theory). Although they may have been socially isolated from childhood onward, most people with schizoid personality disorder displayed well-adapted social behavior as children, along with apparently normal emotional function. SPD does also not involve impairments in nonverbal communication such as a lack of eye contact, unusual prosody or a pattern of restricted interests or repetitive behaviors. Compared to AS, SPD is characterized by prominent conduct disorder, better adult adjustment, less severely impaired social interaction and a slightly increased risk of schizophrenia.[49][50]



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizoid_ ... _diagnosis

These sound reasonable, especially the first one - AS as a risk factor of developing schizoid but generally a separate phenomenon.


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magz
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03 Jul 2019, 3:11 am

TheOther wrote:
magz wrote:
My view:

There should be something like "social processing disorder", just like there is dyslexia and prosopagnosia. I believe it to be the core (or at least one of the cores) of Asperger's Syndrome and it is also typically present in all other forms of autism.
One can develop a schizoid personality with or without this trait on neurological level.

So, in my view, Asperger's and schizoid overlap a lot but they exist on different levels - Asperger's on neurological, schizoid on social-behavioral.


In the USA, the DSM V now has Social Communication Disorder as a diagnosis.

I have a sneaking suspicion that it just describes people with very mild autism, though.

Quote:
For example, while autism
spectrum disorder (ASD) does encompass communication problems, it also includes restricted, repeti-
tive patterns of behavior, interests or activities and gives equal weight to both communication issues
and repetitive behaviors. ASD must be ruled out for SCD to be diagnosed.
It's presented as something separate from the autism spectrum, while my idea was it was one of dimensions of the spectrum.


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03 Jul 2019, 9:34 am

fluffysaurus wrote:
I think the main thing is not to contradict someone when they are describing themselves. If someone has found

something they identify with, and someone else keeps describing them as something else, they are going to get

upset. That doesn't mean they are anti the other thing or think it's inferior. How people identify themselves is very

important to them, and it's undermining them to insist on identifying them against their own view of themselves. I

mean it's basically telling someone they are too stupid to know what they are.


That sort of reminds me of the university counselor three years ago. So I used to be diagnosed with Asperger from several years back. Then, three years ago, since they had DSM 5 rather then DSM 4, the counselor was going to diagnose me with "autism level 1". So I asked the counselor why that, instead of "social communication disorder". He said he never heard of the latter. So I had him look it up and, after he did, he said "okay I will change your diagnosis to that". It was quite surprising that he was willing to change the diagnosis right on the spot. So I questioned that too. So then he said "fine, I will just put Asperger with DSM 4 in brackets" so I asked him "since you are changing your mind so easily based on what I say, are you telling me it doesn't matter what the diagnosis is" and he said "that's right, it doesn't really matter, since you aren't on medications or anything, and aren't getting any services beyond counselling"



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04 Jul 2019, 1:12 am

Glflegolas wrote:
Maybe a bigger problem occurs when people try to expand the description of dyspraxia to include key ASD symptoms, namely trouble with socialising, which creates confusion "where does the spectrum end". The simple solution would be to say that the two diagnoses are not mutually exclusive. For example, Natalie Williams was diagnosed with dyspraxia, but I am sure what she actually has is a combination of Asperger's and dyspraxia. And yes, therefore, she is, without a doubt, on the autism spectrum since "difficulty socialising" and "restricted/repeditive behaviour" are the two hallmarks, and if you read her blog, both of these are pretty darn apparent.

Nonetheless, although I can't find much support to knock Asperger's off the autism spectrum, that doesn't mean I can't find any. Through a quick search using DuckDuckGo; "how similar are autism and asperger's", I came up some differences between the two conditions:

The top difference between the two is Asperger's doesn't have a delay in language development, therefore doesn't get diagnosed usually until a later age. Asperger's is also supposed to be more likely to be accompanied by giftedness. People with Asperger's are more likely to at least try interacting with others.

Supposedly, those with Asperger's are more like to be depressed, because they're more aware of their difficulties socialising.

Finally, there are some brain differences between autism and asperger's, namely the latter usually have stronger connections in the left hemisphere, and have a larger and better developed language processing area.

What we really would need are more careful comparison studies. Until then all that we can do is state our opinions.



Is she that person who has a little brother on the spectrum?


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20 Jul 2019, 4:30 pm

Bulletin!

I know this is a bit late, but...

My buddy, and I are back to hanging out together.

And I asked him what his diagnosis was again.

Turns out that I was even more confused than I thought I was. :oops: :lol:

It was neither schizoid personality, nor was it schizotypal.


He was labeled as "schizoaffective personality".

Something else again.

Schizoaffective.

Dang!

All of these schiz words! Jeeze!

Oh well.



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20 Jul 2019, 8:28 pm

magz wrote:
My view:

There should be something like "social processing disorder", just like there is dyslexia and prosopagnosia. I believe it to be the core (or at least one of the cores) of Asperger's Syndrome and it is also typically present in all other forms of autism.
One can develop a schizoid personality with or without this trait on neurological level.

So, in my view, Asperger's and schizoid overlap a lot but they exist on different levels - Asperger's on neurological, schizoid on social-behavioral.

That's how I see it too. I agree with Magz and Glflegolas here.


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21 Jul 2019, 3:56 am

Just to muddy the waters again...
Some are now proposing that the so-called "personality disorders" have such a strong heritability that they could be considered hard-wired vulnerabilities like autism. Environmental factors such as up-bringing can affect the level to which a person demonstrates traits (...creating a kind of spectrum of severity...)



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21 Jul 2019, 8:03 am

In my opinion the term autism is used for to much different mental problems which have only in common to influence the social interaction with other people.
Currently there doesn't exist a sharp separation of the different problems even that all of them require a quite different treatment, You need also to care whether the people are visual, verbal, emotional or abstract thinking because all of this causes hugh differences in the way that their brain works. All people are different and for this they require a different treatment to overcome their different social problems. But for helping them you need to sort the the people and their way of thinking and the different problems first.
The way that people are can be hard wired thing in their brain or the result of of social interaction and their own way of thinking and also influenced by hormons and subtances within foods or drugs. Beside of this you need to care that the brain is adaptive and able to learn in positive and negative ways by generating additional neurons and additional connections between them. For this it's able to overcome some of the initial hard wired limitations or at least to learn how to deal with them in a better way.
The problems within the autism spectrum disorders are anxiety problems, processing of sensoric signals, the generation and processing of emotions aso.
People who have Asperger's don't generate and process emotions the same way that average people do. For this they can't relate to average people very well and struggle with the expectation of others of being the same emotional way that average people are. But if it comes to me then I wouldn't call people who have no problems beside of this autistic.


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21 Jul 2019, 1:26 pm

I wish Asperger's wasn't lumped with autism, but it had to be because of many people saying that nobody's high-functioning on the spectrum. :roll:

But I don't believe that people with autism have low IQs. Some autistic adults can score higher than average IQ.


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21 Jul 2019, 6:15 pm

Joe90 wrote:
I wish Asperger's wasn't lumped with autism, but it had to be because of many people saying that nobody's high-functioning on the spectrum. :roll:

But I don't believe that people with autism have low IQs. Some autistic adults can score higher than average IQ.


About your first point: I cant figure out what your point is.

About your second point: Its not what you "believe". Its a fact that autistics come in every IQ level up to and including genius.



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22 Jul 2019, 12:27 am

naturalplastic wrote:
He was labeled as "schizoaffective personality".


I don't know about DSM 5, but, at least in DSM 4, there is "schizoaffective DISORDER", but there is no such thing as "schizoaffective PERSONALITY disorder". And yes, "schizoaffective disorder" includes psychotic features, thats what it is about. But I am surprised you mentioned the word "personality".



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22 Jul 2019, 3:06 am

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Its a fact that autistics come in every IQ level up to and including genius


That is exactly what I meant.


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