Asperger's and schizophrenia.

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John Nash only has a diagnosis of schiziophrenia.

I have found this discussion quite interesting. My son was diagnosed with AS at seven years old, though he had presented symptoms since he was a toddler. I remember a co-worker saying, "I'd think he was autistic if he didn't talk and communicate so well." He did communicate, but always on his terms about topics he was obsessed with, the "little professor." He tried to play at times with other kids, but he hugged too hard (after which they were scared of him and ran away), played too rough (in Sunday School used plastic toys as a slingshot to act out the Old Testament story of David and Goliath with him being David with a slingshot), and misinterpreted and had fight/flight reactions to classmates (knocked a child down who got to close in line behind him in kindergarten, while quoting from the Chronicles of Narnia (with a British to boot), "Get away from me you silly ass!" (He read words spontaneously around 2 years old and was reading chapter books at 3. Read all the Chronicles of Narnia before kindergarten.

He played imaginative games, often thinking he was a dinosaur or other creature. He stayed in character so much that his preschool class picture shows him with two claws up (his T-rex days). He would communicate and talk to me, his dad, his psychiatrist, and others about things other than his "game world" though. His psychiatrist was hesitant to say he had schizophrenia, as symptoms can sometimes coexist between the two worlds.

At 12 we had a rather turblent time in our family life and shortly thereafter my son began to hear a voice in the bathroom at school. Then the voice came in the shower at home. The voice continued on and off (mostly on). In high school, he began to think that the waitstaff at restaurants put drugs in his drink or food. After he was graduated from high school and was spending a lot of time at home, he began to hear two distinct voices of people he believed were in our neighborhood who were telling him that they had poisoned his lunch and were going to kill him and me. His behavior became highly erratic and he began to sit up all night in order to protect us, etc. When I came home and found he had taped a steak knife to the end of a walking stick to protect himself from these "bully voices" (who had become visual hallucinations by then, too), I knew we were dealing with something besides AS. After a few weeks in a highly reputable psychiatric hospital, he was evaluated thoroughly and his AS diagnosis was reconfirmed, and he was also diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia. The psychiatrist at the hospital explained it to us this way: schizophrenia is usually not diagnosed as a separate entity until someone begins to ACT on and "with" the delusions, and/or auditory/visual hallucinations, even when people they trust tell them they are not there. They can become violent when in this state, when in their usual personality they would not be.

He is on an antipsychotic medication now that has been a great thing for him. As he says, "I only hear the voices I should be hearing." He is back to his regular AS personality which is a great relief!

This is strictly our family's experience and in no way is meant to say it holds scientific truth.

*sigh of relief* Guess what? I have the same symptoms!

Here is a (rather long) quote from a UK medical journal-type site I found -
An experimental investigation of the phenomenology of delusional beliefs in people with Asperger syndrome

Frances Abell
Bradford Teaching Hospitals NHS Trust, UK

Dougal Julian Hare

University of Manchester, UK

There is evidence that Asperger syndrome is associated with delusional beliefs. Cognitive theories of delusions in psychosis literature propose a central role for impaired theory of mind ability in the development of delusions. The present study investigates the phenomenology of delusional ideation in Asperger syndrome. Forty-six individuals with Asperger syndrome participated and were found to have relatively high levels of delusional ideation, primarily grandiose or persecutory. Factors associated with delusional belief were anxiety, social anxiety and self-consciousness, but not theory of mind ability or autobiographical memory. The findings indicate that delusional belief is a prominent feature in Asperger syndrome, but do not support a mentalization based account. A preliminary cognitive model of delusions in Asperger syndrome is proposed and the theoretical and clinical implications of the findings are discussed.

Key Words: anxiety • Asperger syndrome • delusions • paranoia

You're son actually sounds pretty cool to me as a 40 yr old Aspie. Especially the lovely British quote from Chronicles of Narnia. Oh how I would love to hear someone say that out loud!

One question how do you *know* you're son is cured from hearing voices from the medication? I mean he may have learned to say he doesn't hear voices to keep from being drugged up even more. I've always found it interesting debate how the same behavior/experience can get labeled differently depending on who does the labeling or diagnosing. Are they schizophrenic, or psychic or live in a haunted house? How do you know your son wasn't hearing spirits since kids are often said to be more sensitive to ghosts than adults are? And please don't get me wrong I'm not placing judgement on you in any means. I'm asking a serious question because I've often thought sometimes people get misdiagnosed who are completely sane.

That would be John Nash. He is still looney but he has learned to cope in and around the normals. He is no danger to himself or those around him, these days. I ran into him a year and half ago in a coffee shop near Princeton Junction, the railroad station in West Windson N.J.

ruveyn

What schizophrenics and autistics do have in common.

stimming. (biting hands, twirling hair, finger flicking)

either can be asexual.

withdraw

monotone voice can be autism or schizophrenia. not sure if sing song pitch occurs with schizophrenia.

people with autism can become paranoid mostly after bad things happen involving people. For example, you start to trust someone and then they do something vicious. Someone with autism may not be very trusting and feels strongly against that kind of injustice. Reactions vary and longevity.

Schizophrenics like to walk in circles, people with autism may do that or spin (most common in childhood with autism)

I wonder if actually being persecuted throughout your whole life or ostracized counts as "delusional"?

How do psychiatrists know if an internal defense mechanism switch that flips on when similar event triggers it is not just a reaction to bad things that have occured and is actually PTSD?

I know if people are being manipulative, outcast and try to bully me, I sure do feel persecuted. Does the mere feeling itself make it a delusion?

A good psychologist should be able to tell PTSD for what it is and not confuse it with being delusional or Schizo. PTSD actually is a internal defence mechanism that is innate just like Dissociation is according to my psychologist. She has also stated trauma from Aspergers can create PTSD if its severe enough. She even stated Dissociation was a very beautiful defense mechanism that some minds are capable of in order to protect a young person that is being abused or neglected. Sounds like some of you have some bad therapists.

They do that for different reasons, don't they?

Autistics based on experience, and schizophrenics because they read too much into people.

Schizophrenia is probably one of the most well know mental illness, yet probably the most misunderstood as well. Everyone has their 2p to say about it. Most of these are assumptions. Schizophrenia s also not one condition but a range of conditions.

There is absolutely no reason why it wouldn't coincide with ASD. Saying you can't have Schizophrenia and ASD is like saying you can't have a migraine and a head cold at the same time. Just because it is less common doesn't mean it isn't possible.

When something is stated in a diagnostic manual you have to get the bottom of why they have these requirements (something I do often a professional cynic). It is true that many diagnostic requirements are indeed totally arbitrary, and based on the most cursory sketchy observations at best. But it is mostly what they leave out which is the real problem. That is why I call them 'cookie cutter' requirements.

In this instance it is for the reason of avoiding confusion (by diagnosticians not the patient). What it is essentially saying is if a person shares the traits of both then one should precede the other and they should treat as if they only have the one condition. However this is very inflexible and not viable for every patient if they were to follow the manual to the letter. Doing so would be ill advised because a manual like the DSM is usually at least 10 years behind current thinking. Diagnosticians who are just passengers and don't contribute anything, and believe anything it says in a manual without question, aren't worth the paper their degree certificate is written on.

Schizophrenia carries an even greater stigma that most head matters, so it is not surprising that people don’t want to be associated with it. However this is the reality.

Last edited by 0_equals_true on 09 Jan 2009, 9:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

^Totally agree.

Schizophrenia is one of the most misunderstood disorders out there, especially with the different types and all.

Oh, I don't feel offended in the least by your question. I think discourse gives us a chance to challenge our ideas and readjust if necessary. Life is all about learning and thinking. Yep, I think my son is pretty cool, too. He has a sense of humor that makes me laugh like no one else can and I couldn't ask for a better son. I don't think someone ever truly gets "cured" from hearing voices, but learns to deal with them in a way that they don't inhibit ones everyday life. Though he'd been hearing voices for 7 years prior to his delutional state, he talked with his psychiatrist about them and was able to live with them being a part of his life without them interferring too much with his regular routine. Any outward "aggression" was more of the "fight/flight" impulsive type, like reacting to sudden noises or an unexpected touch.

It was when he could no longer go on with his regular life and the voices began to take over his personality, that we felt there was something different going on. It was as though his whole life revolved around getting away from the voices. Rather than seeing voices as a part of his own thinking, his own world as he had earlier in life, he was seeing them as a different entity who intended harm. His reactions were not so much impulsive, but elaborately planned--like the knife incident. When he is taking his new meds he can concentrate on the fun aspects of life like his reading, writing, and role playing games without interference. He is happy again. On the rare occasion that he does hear voices he talks with us about them. We have assured him that communicating with us about the voices all along is the key to us all working together to keep them "in check" so that they don't take over the everyday life he enjoys. His doctor also listens to him concerning what he is and isn't willing to accept with a medicine. For example, one which has a side effect of weight gain vs. one that may make him more drowsy. He recently told me that he knows there are some things he just has to do in life like take meds that other people have to do like take shots for diabetes.

I think another difference we saw in him that would indicate the difference in AS and paranoid schizophrenia is that when he is just presenting AS characteristics it is safe for others to be around him. Even if he is role playing in a game, he can come out of character to respond to the dog's need to go out or the telephone, even if he doesn't really want to. However, when he was presenting delutional behavior, he could not "come out of it," instead insisting that everyone take cover, and so forth. If we tried to dissuade him or talk to him, he was just as prone to hurt us as he was the hallucinations or see us as the enemy. Typical AS people are not violent in that sense.

Again, this is only my family's experience and my own thoughts. I welcome any further discussion, as I'm still learning ...

Hi. New to the forums. This is my area of interest. I have a schizophrenic sister who has very strong autistic-like symptoms. She has a flat affect, much of the time, wants to be alone, actively dislikes people, and finds nothing in common with others. She doesn't like being around other people with schizophrenia because they are "crazy". She is able to maintain eye contact easily. She stares in your direction, without actually beholding you, is the impression I get. To me staring at someone unblinking, in this way, is a first cousin to not looking at them at all.

Autism strikes me as schizophrenia, minus the hallucinations and extreme paranoia. Think some forms of schizophrenia are actually closely related to autism.

I don't think I'm schitzophrenic, but I have had hallucinations. I was waiting outside class one day and I started having a conversation with a friend who wasn't in that day. He was holding a knife for some reason . But it was because I accidentally went into a perfect trance-like state, not because of some mental problem. I agree that Schitzophrenia and Asperger's have some definite similarities, as they share a lot of symptoms. I'm not a neurologist, but maybe a new term should be coined for those with AS and Schitzophrenia, Aspiephrenia?

This is interesting because a couple of years before I was diagnosed with A.S., I did a research paper for a science class on Schizophrenia cause I wanted to do research on it to see if I had it.

Personally speaking, I've developed some schizophrenic like qualities that I think would not have happened without having A.S. to begin with...I think having severe depression could also trigger this sort of thing too.

What kind of schizophrenic qualities you ask? Well let's say I'm seeing things or hearing voices but I am constantly cursing and talking to people who aren't there (mainly while I'm driving by myself or in my bedroom alone) but are technically supposed to exist, and that God is against me for not committing certain evil deeds that I'm convinced he wanted me to do but didn't, and that I'm afraid to go out in public because I'm scared that I'll run into familiar faces who wanna attack me. Nuff said.

there already is a term for those inbetween the autistic spectrum and and Schizophrenic spectrum

its called McDD or Multiple-complex Developmental Disorder

Multiple-complex Developmental Disorder (McDD) represents a distinct group within the autism spectrum based on symptomatology.

Ever since autism was first recognized, its continuity with schizophrenia has been a matter of debate. In fact, until the late 1970s, children with autism were often labeled as having "childhood schizophrenia." In the last thirty years, however, the term "childhood schizophrenia" has been displaced. Diagnostic criteria for autism have been established that rely solely on social, communicative and sensorimotor symptoms, without reference to the thought disorders typical of schizophrenia.

Nevertheless, there are some children who display the severe, early-appearing social and communicative deficits characteristic of autism who ALSO display some of the emotional instability and disordered thought processes that resemble schizophrenic symptoms. Cohen, et al. (1986), coined the term Multiplex Developmental Disorder (MDD) to describe these children, although they are often given a diagnosis of PDD-NOS by clinicians who may be unfamiliar with this terminology. Unlike schizophrenia, MDD symptoms emerge in childhood, sometimes in the first years of life, and persist throughout development.

Multiplex developmental disorder is diagnosed in people who are on both the autism and schizophrenia spectrums. Their intelligence and emotional range run the gamut. There is a high rate of co-morbidity with learning disorders, AD/HD, obsessive-compulsive disorder, depression, bipolar disorder, social anxiety disorder, Tourette's syndrome, personality disorders, epilepsy, and phobias.

McDD is a developmental disorder with symptoms that can be divided into three groups.

A. Regulation of emotion. (Affective symptoms) – two or more of the following.
1. Depressive symptoms such as consistent depressed mood, feelings of sadness or emptiness, thoughts of death, little interest or pleasure in activities, chronic fatigue, feelings of worthlessness or guilt.
2. Manic symptoms such as racing thoughts, irritability, distractibility, psychomotor agitation, impulsivity, sleep disturbances, feelings of grandiosity or extreme self worth, risky behavior.
3. Anxious symptoms such as recurrent panic, intense inappropriate anxiety, dissociation, diffuse tension, paranoia, unusual fears and phobias that are peculiar in content or in intensity.
4. Severely impaired regulation of feelings with significant and wide emotional variability.
B. Consistent impairments in social behavior and development (Autistic symptoms) - at least two from (A) and one from (B) or (C).
(A) Qualitative impairment in social interaction.
1. Marked impairments in the use of multiple nonverbal behaviors such as eye-to-eye gaze, facial expression, body posture, and gestures to regulate social interaction
2. Failure to develop peer relationships appropriate to developmental level
3. A lack of spontaneous seeking to share enjoyment, interests, or achievements with other people
4. Lack of social or emotional reciprocity
(B) Qualitative impairments in communication.
1. Delay in, or total lack of, the development of spoken language (not accompanied by an attempt to compensate through alternative modes of communication such as gesture or mime)
2. In individuals with adequate speech, marked impairment in the ability to initiate or sustain a conversation with others
3. Stereotyped and repetitive use of language or idiosyncratic language
4. Lack of varied, spontaneous make-believe play or social imitative play appropriate to developmental level
(C) Restricted repetitive and stereotyped patterns of behavior, interests and activities.
1. Encompassing preoccupation with one or more stereotyped and restricted patterns of interest that is abnormal either in intensity or focus
2. Apparently inflexible adherence to specific, nonfunctional routines or rituals
3. Stereotyped and repetitive motor mannerisms
4. Persistent preoccupation with parts of objects

C. Impaired cognitive processing (psychotic symptoms) – two or more of the following.
1. Delusions, including fantasies of personal omnipotence, thought insertion, paranoid preoccupations, overengagement with fantasy figures, grandiose fantasies of special powers, referential ideation, and confusion between fantasy and real life.
2. Hallucinations and/or unusual perceptual experiences.
3. Negative symptoms (anhedonia, affective flattening, alogia, or avolition)
4. Disorganized or catatonic behavior such as thought disorder symptoms, easy confusability, inappropriate emotions/facial expressions, uncontrollable laughter, etc.
5. Disorganized speech.


copyed an pasted from wikipedia