Why isn't it said that neurotypicals lack empathy?

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pandd
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16 Dec 2008, 2:25 pm

neshamaruach directed to me personally or not, your post (in my opinion) is one of a small minority in this thread worthy of taking the time to read (contributers who likewise posted constructive and insightful comments, you know who you are).

Naturella
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16 Dec 2008, 2:58 pm

My problem is that I can be rude to people that ask damb questions... Now, I am really working on this small aspie shortcoming and here , I am doing my best to be polite.
The author of this thread asks about empathy but by empathy (as he further describes it) he means SYMPATHY AND COMPASSION.
So, dear author!
NO ONE, EVER said that compassion or sympathy has anything to do with Asperger's.
Sympathy and compassion are individual characteristics of each particular individual. There is no existing generalization about that. There are both cruel and compassionate individuals within both group and there is no way to argue this.

Naturella
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16 Dec 2008, 3:11 pm

timeisdead wrote:

pandd wrote:

Perhaps you should have been clearer about your point. People with AS are not exactly known for their ability to read between lines and grasp points barely hinted at in some oblique way.

Perhaps you misunderstand the meaning of empathy. A requisite for exercising empathy is comprehending someone else's state of mind. How is someone impaired in comprehending non-verbal cues not going to be impaired in empathy, when a normal level of skill in this area, includes the ability to comprehend someone's state of mind, using nothing more than non-verbal cues?

Actually, people think I read into things too much. I always read between the lines by applying logic to the situation. My impressions of what people really want tend to be right. I am a natural skeptic.

Heh, you are making conclusions about aspies based on yourself and in your profile you say about Asperger's..."I am not sure if I have it or not". that's funny. I think you have to "read into things" a little bit more. Start with this ones:
1. the simple and straitforward definintion of the word "empathy" (don't bother to readinto it too deeply, just find out the basic definition).
2. Decide whether you have an Asperger's syndrom (at least spend some time reading literature) or not if you want to bring your experience as an example of aspie behaviour.

pluto
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16 Dec 2008, 6:10 pm

Naturella wrote:

timeisdead wrote:

pandd wrote:

Naturella,although I can understand your
assumption that people are simply confusing
empathy and sympathy,isn't it possible that
in order to feel sympathy you must have the
ability to empathise in the first place ?
A definition "The act of or capacity for
sharing or understanding the feelings of
another person" - that is from a dictionary
describing SYMPATHY. That suggests to me
the only differences between the two are
that empathy relates to a higher potential for
understanding the feelings of others as well
as an innate tendency to follow a 'herd'
mentality.Unfortunately,for a minority,the
gift of empathy manifests itself in being able to relate to their own peers regardless of whether those peers are decent people or bullies.

I would rather have someone who tries to
sympathise no matter how difficult they find it,over someone who has the more enlightened gift of empathy but chooses to relate mainly to those who are abusive.

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DwightF
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16 Dec 2008, 7:07 pm

pluto wrote:

Wow, I can't believe I bought into the hype about Aspergers/Autistics are paragons of logic. Either that or according to the Protocols the Elders of Autism need to be revoking your [self diagnosed] secret membership card.

Yes, appropriately aiming of sympathy would require accurate empathy [or dumb luck]. But a lack of sympathy doesn't provide anything like proof of a lack of empathy. Further to be "popular", a characterization that hearing used in this thread, doesn't it make sense that they need at least a decent level of understanding of how other people think and react? Especially to non-violent means of social manipulation.

http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/b ... awler=true

http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/b ... 3/art00008

There appear to be two kinds of bullies:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1218 ... d_RVDocSum

The second type could be more lacking in empathy but it makes little to no sense that the "popular", socially successful ones do. Certainly once you get into the realm of adults where there are some huge problems with relying on violence, the high social skill version is going to take over. To claim such sounds to me a lot like sour grapes. Being inaccurate also cripples you in addressing it.

P.S. Noting questionable empathy in children and youth is sort of like noting that a lot of them are shorter than 30-year-olds. :/

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ephemerella
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16 Dec 2008, 7:28 pm

DwightF wrote:

There appear to be two kinds of bullies:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1218 ... d_RVDocSum

The second type could be more lacking in empathy but it makes little to no sense that the "popular", socially successful ones do. Certainly once you get into the realm of adults where there are some huge problems with relying on violence, the high social skill version is going to take over. To claim such sounds to me a lot like sour grapes. Being inaccurate also cripples you in addressing it.

I wanted to add to your notes that there was a study a couple (few?) weeks ago that found that the brains of bullies lit up with pleasure when they observed others in pain or discomfort. This type of bully was getting pleasure shots from the pain of others. It is my guess that this would correspond to the higher-skilled type of bully in the paper you cited. That bully would be, perhaps, a sociopathic bully type. One who bullies not out of social ineptitude but for pleasure.

The sociopathic bully would of course not experience a lot of empathy.

DwightF
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16 Dec 2008, 8:44 pm

ephemerella wrote:

DwightF wrote:

"The new research showed these areas in the bullies' brains were even more active than in the nonbullies."

My underlining. Hyper-empathy? T'would make sense that the pleasure following from that could be a learned response that they were about to reap "rewards". Or they might have come with that link hardwired in, after the fact those two scenarios could look very similar. Either way it was like they were seeing something like [heightened] empathy with suppressed or overwhelmed compassion. EDIT: Yeah, that sounds damn spooky to me.

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timeisdead
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16 Dec 2008, 10:08 pm

Naturella wrote:

timeisdead wrote:

pandd wrote:

First of all, I define empathy as the ability to place yourself in another's shoes. Secondly, I have read the criteria in the DSM IV and have diagnosed myself with Asperger's Syndrome. I never said ALL Aspies are like this but I have the ability to see what people really want (as opposed to what they say to your face).

timeisdead
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16 Dec 2008, 10:12 pm

ephemerella wrote:

DwightF wrote:

This is exactly why I hate this BS about "Oh the bullies just have low self-esteem" and how we are expected to pity them instead of daring to strike out against them.

timeisdead
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16 Dec 2008, 10:13 pm

Crocodile wrote:

timeisdead wrote:

No this post is not bashing all neurotypicals, only those who fit this description.

Many neurotypicals are shallow to the point of thinking that those who are not attractive according to them deserve to be condemned with a life of loneliness. They are even angered when another person chooses to date someone they feel doesn't match their perfect standards.
.
Some neurotypicals also cannot restrain themselves from wanting to commit violence against the innocent. They are always speaking about how they wish to nuke nations such as Iran ect. and try to justify the past murders of innocent lives. According to them, if a horrific act is carried out by the police, government, or military, it's perfectly fine.

Some neurotypicals tend to bully and belittle of others unlike themselves and act as if they are being unjustly targeted when their victim strikes back. Their sense of morality is based on "might makes right"; innocents are not taken into consideration.

Many NTs are heartless, devoid of any empathy whatsoever. A child could be born deformed and live a horrible life but some neurotypicals would either laugh at it's misfortune, name call, or wish for its death.

I totally agree with you. Can't say it better. You explain exactly what I often notice, see and feel like.

Thanks! I'm glad I'm not the only one who noticed. Perhaps I should write a critique on the various segments of mainstream society.

DwightF
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16 Dec 2008, 10:45 pm

timeisdead wrote:

ephemerella wrote:

DwightF wrote:

This is exactly why I hate this BS about "Oh the bullies just have low self-esteem" and how we are expected to pity them instead of daring to strike out against them.

"Strike out" at them because they have brain chemistry different from the norm? That they do things that you don't like, that you don't agree with, that you feel uncomfortable with.

Curious proposition.

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timeisdead
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16 Dec 2008, 10:48 pm

DwightF wrote:

timeisdead wrote:

ephemerella wrote:

DwightF wrote:

This is exactly why I hate this BS about "Oh the bullies just have low self-esteem" and how we are expected to pity them instead of daring to strike out against them.

"Strike out" at them because they have brain chemistry different from the norm? That they do things that you don't like, that you don't agree with, that cause you to feel uncomfortable.

Curious proposition.

So what? That behavior deserves to be punished. You clearly underestimate the effects of operant conditioning. I guess we should all be passive little victims while the sociopaths of the world are given free reign.

DwightF
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16 Dec 2008, 10:58 pm

timeisdead wrote:

So what? That behavior deserves to be punished. You clearly underestimate the effects of operant conditioning. I guess we should all be passive little victims while the sociopaths of the world are given free reign.

As an exercise try substituting out the bolded word for "non-conformists", "weirdos", "people that think wrong", or maybe even "autistics".

Perhaps then you can see how the true petty, hypocritical colours of your ways are showing more and more.

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Last edited by DwightF on 16 Dec 2008, 11:00 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Abangyarudo
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16 Dec 2008, 10:58 pm

timeisdead wrote:

DwightF wrote:

timeisdead wrote:

ephemerella wrote:

DwightF wrote:

This is exactly why I hate this BS about "Oh the bullies just have low self-esteem" and how we are expected to pity them instead of daring to strike out against them.

This is not targeted at you but when you decide that you toe the line of becoming the same type of person you despise. In a similar fashion what separates a vigilante from a criminal especialy when vigilantes commit criminal acts to persecute the offender. I'd rather be above the act that I clam to depise then commit those acts and become the very thing I fight against.

Last edited by Abangyarudo on 16 Dec 2008, 11:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

chamoisee
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16 Dec 2008, 10:59 pm

They think we are the ones that lack empathy because they *pretend* so well and we do not.

timeisdead
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16 Dec 2008, 11:20 pm

DwightF wrote:

timeisdead wrote:

They deliberately harm others and even derive pleasure from their acts yet we should do nothing about it? I am such a hypocrite for differentiating between harmful and innocuous behavior. Yep! All behaviors that are decidedly out of the so-called "norm" fall under the broad category of abnormality, thus each should be treated equally regardless of the consequences or potential consequences the behavior can have on those around them.

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