So I posted in the infamous AS partners forum for NT's...

Page 32 of 35 [ 546 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35  Next

Jono
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 10 Jul 2008
Age: 44
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,659
Location: Johannesburg, South Africa

28 Feb 2015, 9:35 am

League_Girl wrote:
YippySkippy wrote:
I think if a person knows they have issues and does nothing about them, then any consequences of their inaction could be labelled abuse. If they don't know they have issues, or they know but they're doing the best they can, then no. That doesn't mean the other person should just accept the situation, though. I think some people feel the need to use the word "abuse" in order to justify leaving a relationship, and that's unfortunate.



I think she did nothing about it and I don't know if she was in denial or wasn't aware. She was aware she had depression. But everyone around me tells me she was an as*hole and a jerk and my parents label as her abusive. I think the reason why she was so worried what people will think of her is because she has had negative feedback about her and IMO if more than one person has negative perceptions about you, then it's time you relook at yourself and reevaluate and work at what you need to change than going "Oh poor me people think I am a control freak, an ass, and an abusive jerk. I don't like you talking on the phone to your parents" The older I get, the more I realize. Now my opinion is if you have to talk to your friends or your parents about your relationship, then things are not working out and you should perhaps think about if it's working or not and leave. I couldn't even talk to my partner without her getting upset or taking what I say the wrong way and even if it was about general stuff, she still didn't like me talking to my parents and had to know everything I was saying to them and listen in so I had to wait until she was at work or go outside and talk. I had no idea this was a form of "abuse" until I read about it in a magazine. I think it was the Seventeen. Of course she never stopped me from talking to them whenever I would. She just made it feel like I couldn't talk to them. But then my justification for her behavior was "he was too worried about what people would think of him and cared too much what people thought." Then I kept reading how victims find excuses for their partner's abusive behavior. Go figure.


I think that the issue here is that just because low self-esteem may be a reason for your ex-partners behaviour, that doesn't necessarily make it an excuse nor does it mean that her behaviour was unintended. By what you've described, she still had the intention to have control over you and that's what makes it abusive.



Jono
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 10 Jul 2008
Age: 44
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,659
Location: Johannesburg, South Africa

28 Feb 2015, 10:21 am

By the way, I've recently found out something. The person who deleted that thread in the ASPartners forum, as well as that post about Wrongplanet was not bstn. If you go to ASPartners and click a link at the bottom of the left sidebar called "Visitors", you'll see that someone with the name "gunter" had been in the forum at the time they were deleted. He's from the main Delphi staff who maintain the whole Delphi site and are generally the people that you go to when you believe their are TOS violations and when the host or staff of a particular Delphi forum are of no help, so I think that he was the one who deleted that sociopath thread as well as the post mentioning WP. I also noticed that after the deletion, it seemed as that bstn all of a sudden stopped posting for a while, though is posting again now. So I'm not sure if her Delphi account was suspended for time but I don't know.

I do admit that back December I enquired about whether hate speech on a Delphi forum could be reported to them because after reading the their Terms of Service, there was a section there that I thought suggested that certain kinds of could be but didn't mention that specifically. When I posted a thread in the "Member Services" forum, asking whether hate speech could be reported, it was gunter who replied to me and he repeated that same section of the TOS but also said that I should e-mail them because we aren't allowed to talk about TOS violations in official forums. So, I did e-mail them and was that thread in particular that I reported. A different guy, Walt, responded to my e-mail at the time and he seemed to agree with me that the post and thread could amount to possible hate speech against ASD individuals but at the time was reluctant to do anything about it, saying that they aren't experts and that normally in cases like these they hope that the host and staff of the particular forum in question should be the ones moderate it. I also PMed both League_Girl and Cubedemon right here on WP about my intention to do this.

I guess that the recent events of that thread being bumped by someone complaining about it as well as bstn making a post about WP is what got them involved. I suppose this means that that bunch will be more careful about what they post about AS people in the future but I won't count on it.



ToughDiamond
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Sep 2008
Age: 72
Gender: Male
Posts: 12,140

28 Feb 2015, 11:02 am

Jono wrote:
By the way, I've recently found out something............I suppose this means that that bunch will be more careful about what they post about AS people in the future but I won't count on it.

Let's hope so. It's starting to look like we can make a positive difference.

This question of whether abuse is still abuse if it's not deliberate is interesting. I've always been inclined to think that if somebody is harming me repeatedly, it doesn't matter a damn what's going on between their ears, but I guess the definition of abuse is what it is. If you know that the one who harms you really means to harm you, it does give the situation a bigger emotional charge, so I guess "abuse" must be a moral term, as morality seems to have the same emotional dimension.



cubedemon6073
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 7 Nov 2008
Age: 45
Gender: Male
Posts: 4,958

28 Feb 2015, 11:42 am

Jono wrote:
By the way, I've recently found out something. The person who deleted that thread in the ASPartners forum, as well as that post about Wrongplanet was not bstn. If you go to ASPartners and click a link at the bottom of the left sidebar called "Visitors", you'll see that someone with the name "gunter" had been in the forum at the time they were deleted. He's from the main Delphi staff who maintain the whole Delphi site and are generally the people that you go to when you believe their are TOS violations and when the host or staff of a particular Delphi forum are of no help, so I think that he was the one who deleted that sociopath thread as well as the post mentioning WP. I also noticed that after the deletion, it seemed as that bstn all of a sudden stopped posting for a while, though is posting again now. So I'm not sure if her Delphi account was suspended for time but I don't know.

I do admit that back December I enquired about whether hate speech on a Delphi forum could be reported to them because after reading the their Terms of Service, there was a section there that I thought suggested that certain kinds of could be but didn't mention that specifically. When I posted a thread in the "Member Services" forum, asking whether hate speech could be reported, it was gunter who replied to me and he repeated that same section of the TOS but also said that I should e-mail them because we aren't allowed to talk about TOS violations in official forums. So, I did e-mail them and was that thread in particular that I reported. A different guy, Walt, responded to my e-mail at the time and he seemed to agree with me that the post and thread could amount to possible hate speech against ASD individuals but at the time was reluctant to do anything about it, saying that they aren't experts and that normally in cases like these they hope that the host and staff of the particular forum in question should be the ones moderate it. I also PMed both League_Girl and Cubedemon right here on WP about my intention to do this.

I guess that the recent events of that thread being bumped by someone complaining about it as well as bstn making a post about WP is what got them involved. I suppose this means that that bunch will be more careful about what they post about AS people in the future but I won't count on it.


Truth is I tried and am still trying to be very reasonable and open-minded with these women. One of them and I have been exchanging PMs for the past few months. What they are in is a lot of emotional pain and this pain can lead to hatred and blind one to logic. I know a number of you can't see it and it is difficult to explain but if they were able to quit hating I think they would have a lot to bring to the table. I see a lot of potential with them.

On the other hand, hatred and demonization of a group can't be tolerated. So Jono, you did good for reporting them on their hated-filled BS.



cubedemon6073
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 7 Nov 2008
Age: 45
Gender: Male
Posts: 4,958

28 Feb 2015, 11:48 am

androbot01
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 17 Sep 2014
Age: 54
Gender: Female
Posts: 6,746
Location: Kingston, Ontario, Canada

28 Feb 2015, 11:52 am

cubedemon6073 wrote:
http://forums.delphiforums.com/aspartners/messages/13528/1

Check out what NotAlone said.

That's a very encouraging post.



cubedemon6073
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 7 Nov 2008
Age: 45
Gender: Male
Posts: 4,958

28 Feb 2015, 12:05 pm

androbot01 wrote:
cubedemon6073 wrote:
http://forums.delphiforums.com/aspartners/messages/13528/1

Check out what NotAlone said.

That's a very encouraging post.


Ya!



League_Girl
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 4 Feb 2010
Gender: Female
Posts: 27,280
Location: Pacific Northwest

28 Feb 2015, 12:28 pm

Quote:
We all need to stop assuming things about each other.


That's true for everyone including NT/NT relationships.


_________________
Son: Diagnosed w/anxiety and ADHD. Also academic delayed and ASD lv 1.

Daughter: NT, no diagnoses. Possibly OCD. Is very private about herself.


Jono
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 10 Jul 2008
Age: 44
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,659
Location: Johannesburg, South Africa

28 Feb 2015, 2:40 pm

ToughDiamond wrote:
Jono wrote:
By the way, I've recently found out something............I suppose this means that that bunch will be more careful about what they post about AS people in the future but I won't count on it.

Let's hope so. It's starting to look like we can make a positive difference.

This question of whether abuse is still abuse if it's not deliberate is interesting. I've always been inclined to think that if somebody is harming me repeatedly, it doesn't matter a damn what's going on between their ears, but I guess the definition of abuse is what it is. If you know that the one who harms you really means to harm you, it does give the situation a bigger emotional charge, so I guess "abuse" must be a moral term, as morality seems to have the same emotional dimension.


Asking whether abuse is intentional or not may be the wrong way to look at it actually since most domestic violence support groups seem to define it in terms of one person using a pattern of behaviours to have power and control over the other person:

Quote:
Abuse is a repetitive pattern of behaviors to maintain power and control over an intimate partner.


http://www.thehotline.org/is-this-abuse/abuse-defined/

So then, according to that definition, it would seem that abuse is always intentional since if one person is trying to control the the other as well as preventing them from leaving. I don't think that some of the complaints that the ASPartners people have, like the AS partner not wanting to socialise with them as a couple or not wanting to sleep in the same bed as the partner, fall under this definition though because neither of those things are an attempt to control. In the case of not wanting to socialise as a couple, it's simply because they dislike a lot of socialisation and they aren't stopping them from socialising without them. In the case of the AS partner not wanting to sleep in the same bed as their spouse, it's probably simply because they are hypersensitive to touch and want to have a good night's sleep rather than to be forced to be uncomfortable the whole night but certainly not trying to "withhold affection" as some of them like to claim.

In other news, actual research into marital satisfaction of AS/NT couples in peer-reviewed journals, unlike Aston's research who has never published a single article in a peer-reviewed journal, is beginning to be done. Here's an abstract of one such article that I've found:

Quote:
Asperger syndrome (AS) is a disorder resembling autism in its problems with social interaction and cognitive flexibility. Today, a number of adults with AS marry and rear children. Yet there has been little research into the quality of their marital and parental relationships. This study explored romantic attachment style, marital satisfaction and parenthood satisfaction in 157 Australian men and women. There was a focal group 22 married adults with a clinically-confirmed AS diagnosis whose child also had AS and three neuro-typical adult control groups: (a) those whose spouse and child had AS, (b) those whose child had AS but spouse did not, and (c) those with no AS family members. Marital satisfaction was high in all four groups. Respondents who had AS themselves were predominantly insecurely avoidant in romantic attachment, in contrast to predominantly securely attachment in all other groups. Having a child with AS reduced parental (though not marital) satisfaction but there was no additional independent contribution of own or spouse's AS. Methodological and practical implications of the findings were considered.


http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1750946710000887

The bold part is my emphasis. Oh well, if someone is in a relationship with someone who has let them know that they have an AS diagnosis and they are worried that the AS will make them abusive, I guess this means that they can stop worrying. If this is correct then this proves that not only does ASD not make people abusive partners but if they've already been diagnosed and have acknowledged and accepted the diagnosis already, then they are not even in the subgroup of AS/NT relationships that experience low satisfaction. The ones that do are probably only when they are undiagnosed and when the underlying issues that AS causes are unknown.



Jono
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 10 Jul 2008
Age: 44
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,659
Location: Johannesburg, South Africa

28 Feb 2015, 2:55 pm

cubedemon6073 wrote:
http://forums.delphiforums.com/aspartners/messages/13528/1

Check out what NotAlone said.


I notice that she's posting all over that forum in different threads. Unfortunately, and perhaps predictably, she's being told to stop "preaching". Take a look at what she says and the replies to her in this thread:

http://forums.delphiforums.com/aspartners/messages/?msg=13532.1

NotAlone's responses are post numbers 10, 12 and 16. Bstn responds to her in posts 13, 14 and 17, telling her to stop "preaching". I guess that all those autism experts like Tony Attwood, who write books to help people on the spectrum and the people who love them are all part of a grand conspiracy to lie and not tell the truth about how we "really are" *sarcasm*.

Oh, I also notice that post 15 has been deleted for some reason.



androbot01
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 17 Sep 2014
Age: 54
Gender: Female
Posts: 6,746
Location: Kingston, Ontario, Canada

28 Feb 2015, 3:03 pm

Jono wrote:
http://forums.delphiforums.com/aspartners/messages/?msg=13532.1

NotAlone's responses are post numbers 10, 12 and 16. Bstn responds to her in posts 13, 14 and 17, telling her to stop "preaching". I guess that all those autism experts like Tony Attwood, who write books to help people on the spectrum and the people who love them are all part of a grand conspiracy to lie and not tell the truth about how we "really are" *sarcasm*.

Oh, I also notice that post 15 has been deleted for some reason.



That turned ugly fast!

Quote:
In fact I warn people to not try to help calm an adult aspi. I say get out of the way, you may get hurt or killed.



League_Girl
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 4 Feb 2010
Gender: Female
Posts: 27,280
Location: Pacific Northwest

28 Feb 2015, 3:46 pm

This bothered me:

Quote:
When they have meltdowns, they're not in control and often break treasured possessions or hurt people that they love.


Often? So lot of us are dangerous and if someone is truly has another human in their brain that makes them do those things during a meltdown, then maybe they should be in a hospital so they will never hurt anyone.


_________________
Son: Diagnosed w/anxiety and ADHD. Also academic delayed and ASD lv 1.

Daughter: NT, no diagnoses. Possibly OCD. Is very private about herself.


The_Walrus
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator

User avatar

Joined: 27 Jan 2010
Age: 29
Gender: Male
Posts: 8,857
Location: London

28 Feb 2015, 5:15 pm

I don't think we should link to positive posts in there. We know the Grand Dragon bans people if we link to their posts.
If she's deleting positive posts, perhaps we should try taking screenshots when we see something positive, and uploading them if they are deleted.



dianthus
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 25 Nov 2011
Gender: Female
Posts: 4,138

28 Feb 2015, 5:45 pm

I don't think abuse is always intentional...at least, it's not always deliberately intended in the moment it happens. A pattern of intentionally negligent or careless behavior can certainly lead to unintentional abuse.

Consider for instance, a diabetic who has severe mood swings and is prone to losing control of themselves when their blood sugar fluctuates. They could do something abusive, but if they are doing everything they can to prevent that, they can't help it if it happens anyway. However if a diabetic is intentionally neglectful of their health, and then does something that is damaging or hurtful to others because of it, they would be at fault for that.

I think the same would be true of anyone who knows they could be prone to violent or abusive behaviors, and has the ability to manage it or prevent it, but chooses not to. If they lose control of themselves, it's not intentional in the moment it happens, but it's part of a pattern of intentional behaviors. That would be abuse via negligence.

Where this becomes very tricky though, is in assigning culpability to a person who has an undiagnosed disorder or illness, and may not have a good understanding of how to manage their behavior, or may not even recognize the need to do so. Many of the partners discussed on AS Partners are undiagnosed.

What is even more problematic, is that denial is part and parcel of many disorders and illnesses. For instance, people with ADHD under the age of 25-30 tend to lack insight into their own condition. Addicts are prone to denial, and so are people with bipolar disorder or borderline personality disorder.

Narcissists and psychopaths use denial quite deliberately as a manipulation tactic. The underlying intentions are different. But, are they not disordered as well? Are there any efficacious treatments for those disorders? How much ability do they have to change the way they are, or manage or control their behavior?

I think it's important to have the right diagnosis, and to accurately distinguish the traits of different disorders. It's grossly irresponsible to label traits of psychopathy or narcissism as autistic traits.

But, should people with certain disorders should be held any more/less culpable for their actions than people with other types of disorders?

Abusive behavior is not a symptom of autism. But, autistic people are still capable of being abusive. Autism doesn't cause abuse, but it doesn't excuse it either.

It's one thing if a poster on AS Partners says that they have been abused by ONE autistic person. That may or may not be accurate - I mean either label, "abuse" may not be accurate, and "autistic" may not be accurate either. And if it's not accurate, it's irresponsible to portray it that way.

But they take things too far when they begin to equate autism with being dangerous or abusive.

I also think, if they want to write about their experiences on a public website, they need to understand that they are putting it up to public scrutiny and criticism. It's fair that we question the veracity of what they are saying and we have every right to discuss it. If they want to be left alone, maybe they should discuss things more privately (like in a therapist's office? not on a website.)



dianthus
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 25 Nov 2011
Gender: Female
Posts: 4,138

28 Feb 2015, 6:47 pm

Jono wrote:
I don't think that some of the complaints that the ASPartners people have, like the AS partner not wanting to socialise with them as a couple or not wanting to sleep in the same bed as the partner, fall under this definition though because neither of those things are an attempt to control.


I think what it probably comes down to is simply whether or not there is another explanation for the partner's behavior, other than abuse.

If a person is getting beat up by their spouse 2-3 times a week, I can't see any other way to interpret it. That's just abuse and it's a situation the person needs to get out of. It would be sick to wait around looking for another explanation.

I have seen some things mentioned over there that sounded to me like abuse, pure and simple. And it's hard to accept that a person you love and trust would do something to deliberately hurt you. They would rather believe it's something the other person can't control. They would also rather find something external to blame it on, rather than internalize it and think they did something wrong to cause it.

But a lot of what they talk about there is more open to interpretation. Things like feeling emotionally neglected or ignored. There could be many possible explanations for what is happening, other than it being deliberate abuse. They probably WANT another explanation. They want to know why it happened.

But they aren't looking for the kind of information that would help them see things from the other person's perspective. I think most of them just aren't in a space to do that. They are too hurt and angry and disappointed.

It's kind of a weird catch-22, when a person feels hurt by someone, they don't want to believe that the other person did it on purpose. But maybe the last thing they want to hear is that the other person didn't intend to hurt them, because then the feelings don't make sense and they don't know what to attribute it to. It's like getting stuck in a loop.



B19
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 11 Jan 2013
Gender: Female
Posts: 9,993
Location: New Zealand

01 Mar 2015, 4:00 am

Here is a link to a thoughtful discussion on relationships between NTs and AS partners:

http://www.quora.com/What-is-it-like-to ... -Aspergers

I'm posting it for comparison: the discussion is relatively nuanced, intelligent, thoughtful and there is an absence of the malice, rage and spite. For me the context of comparison shows just how toxic the forum under discussion in this thread actually is.