First time in history!! !! The NT/AS open hotline ! !! !! !

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Hi Lepidoptera, I'm sorry there are so many people who lie in the world, and that you have run into so many of them. Though this might be hard to believe, not all NTs lie. I know this doesn't help, and it certainly doesn't help to figure out which ones are trustworthy. But I assure you, there are plenty of honest NTs in the world.

There are many types of lies, and in many cultures lying is allowed and is "normal." Not saying I like it, that's just the way it is. In general, lies that hurt others are immoral. Lies that save others from getting hurt can be considered moral. I'll try to elaborate below.

This type of deceit is so that the lier can profit by the lie. Its never ok in my opinion. Deceit for personal gain is immoral, especially when it hurts others.



While this kind of lie doesn't hurt anyone per se, if it inconveniences you it is, therefore, immoral in my opinion.



Right. They're using anger to derail the converation and avoid having to admit they've lied and are therefore immoral. When you back someone into a corner and confront them with a lie, most of time they will react with anger or tell another lie to avoid having to admit that they lied.



These lies may have been told in an effort to not hurt your feelings, but its hard to say without more specifics.



Some of these were probably considered acceptable behavior by society. Again, I'm not for it, just trying to explain the behavior.

Be true to yourself! I hope you continue to look for, find, and appreciate honest people

Lepidoptera, this is my explanation:

The hypocritically so-called white lie is like fake jewelry: yes, most everyone adorns themselves with it thinking it makes them look prettier, and those at their same level even agree, but the true conoisseurs find them ugly and cheap.

This eye-contact question seems to come up again and again, in different flavors.

I’m not AS (though not exactly NT). I think I can speak for many (NT) people about the different ways eye contact can be interpreted.

When I was a child, my aunt Virginia geve me a stern talking to one day about some misbehavior. She said “Look me in the eye when I’m talking to you!” I obeyed, and found her scrutiny added to the effect of her admonishion. It kind of screwed everything she was saying right into my head. Otherwise – how would I have retained this memory so long!?

Eye contact is provocative. It is challenging. It makes everything interpersonal SO much more personal. It’s closer than close, if you really see into each others eyes.

If you’re in an intimate setting, it’s a prelude to sexuality. It is the threshold for fighting, in a different atmosphere.

Animals mostly reserve eye contact for situations of aggression. Deep down, I think we all know that. Thus the “staredown” -- eyeball wrestling. “See who blinks first.”

So what you see when you look into another person’s eyes is deeply about interpersonal relating, on a primal level, and its entirely context-dependent.

Now that I think about all this, I can’t say I blame anyone with the sensitivity to the powerfully intimate, intimidating signals of eye contact, for wanting to reserve it for those primally-appropriate moments of personal challenge or intimate welcome.

Maybe the big “NT mystery” here turns out to be an ability to blunt the above considerations on account of one other association: people seem to think that looking someone in the eye equates to sincerity. “I couldn’t possibly tell a lie if I’m looking you in the eye.” People seem to have learned ways to decieve by implication, and the “honest” gaze may be one of them. (The best liar lies with the most innocent of expressions.)

I never really analyzed this before.

From what I’ve been reading (somewhat obsessively) lately, I get the drift of expressions of EXTREME AS honesty contrasting with a perception or feeling of convenient hypocricy on the part of the “normal” societal world. (Is “politeness” sometimes sleazy?) Seeing things in new ways…

Anyone who knows the story of King Lear remembers Cordelia’s realistic description of her love for her father, contrasted with the flowery hypocrisy of her sisters. Gosh, I guess Cordelia was a Shakespearean Aspie.

Sorry – back to eye contact. . . . no unfortunately its not a teleprompter of the soul.

More of a challenge familiar to baboons and lots of other species.

It’s amazing the NT world has desentitized itself so much to the dangerously primal nature of this communication.

I know what you're saying is true but it's hard to find them. To be honest myself I do have a couple of friends that I believe have always been honest with me and I do whatever I can to keep them as friends as I need at least a couple of people I can trust.



I don't know any more details myself. These people contacted me and asked to visit and then when I agreed they ignored the opportunity. Why would you ask and then not follow through? Seems bizarre to me.

Maybe it's another undiscovered social rule. Yeah that's probably it. Asking to visit is supposed to be as good as actually doing it. And I thought taking people literally didn't apply to me. Guess I was wrong. I just have my own version of it.

So many questions here seem to lump everyone into two groups and figure that the one they belong to gets unfairly picked on by the other, lager group. So the questions tend to be things like:

“To an NT; why do so many NTs tell horrible lies, mistreat good people, return bad behavior for good, and act really horrible in general?”

There’s more than one axis for human personalities. If people are basically opportunistic and amoral, they will make use of their capabilities for telling lies to achieve their ends. Its not “an NT thing.”

There is an important difference in INTENT that you might want to remember -- a difference between social lies that are told for benign purposes, in order to avoid hurt feelings, and the exact opposite kind. I know its confusing (and not as simple as those two extremes) but the distinction should still be kept in mind. Otherwise you’re lumping sadists and psychopaths in with people who are just too kind to tell the truth when they sense that it would be hurtful to hear.

There are kind NTs and nasty NTs.

Another really important axis to recall is IQ. There are smart NTs and stupid NTs.

The fact is that most people are not terribly bright - by my standards, anyway – nor are they all that analytical. They bumble along without analyzing their own behavior very much, because they don’t have to. So some things they do are maddeningly stupid and callous, and they just aren’t thinking about what they’re doing.

While all this analysis goes on here over behavior tht took place, in some cases, in a breif encounter, the NT people involved probably gave it very little thought at the time or thereafter. The mean people just go “har har har” and move on. Particularly the mean STUPID people.

Never forget that you’re in a world of insensitive, relatively non-analytical and largely stupid people. Its not an NT thing to be that way, but it is a percentages thing to be in an “average” IQ range that bright people find alien in and of itself.

Let me put this another way: My IQ scores put me far away from the middle of the bell curve lump. It’s lonely here. There aren’t that many interesting people to talk to. This is despite the fact that I seem to have fully functional ToM and “empathy” components.

One reason I’m putting in a lot of time HERE is that there are people here who are using their minds actively to understand themselves and others.

There is a big oupouring of thought, emotional support, and analytical problem solving. Some of the posts are amazing in all respcts. I’m really impressed with the caliber of people here.

Just please try to recall all the shades of gray on the scale of personalities. Don’t lump “NT” people in with psychopathic people, please!! !! !

I can understand that it may seem like that. I hope that's not the case. I would not consider any of the people in my examples to be psychopaths. The people I described are nice most of the time, but on occasion make up stories to excuse less than great behavior. I'm not great at detecting these sorts of lies, and when I finally do, I feel a sense of betrayal. Maybe I'm too sensitive but for me the relationship is permanently altered. I can forgive but I can't forget. For example, I still talk to the people who flaked out on their promised visits, but I no longer broach that subject, and if they bring it up, I don't pursue it.

I met someone a couple years ago who in retrospect I think was a psychopath. This woman took advantage of her mother after her father's death by moving her family into her mother's home (next door to me) and took over. Sometime after my one conversation with her, I realized that she would say or do anything to get what she wanted. She was a practiced lier. Within nine months the situation escalated to physical abuse at which time the police came and kicked out the family. Everyone was relieved to see them go. They were just trouble. No one I know comes close to this.

I consider myself to be pretty fully equipped with empathy and ToM stuff, and -- guess what -- I can't tell when I'm being lied to either, a lot of the time. It sounds to me like you took a very reasonable course of thought and action. I get the same sense of betrayal and damage, and the rest of your train of reactions sounds like mine. You've worked out the nicer end of the scale for what I'd think of a possible reactions, actually.

You're describing responses calibrated to the behavior on a "shades of gray" scale, just like any other astutely reasoning being. Not everyone here is equally good at those distinctions.

I should probably mention that I am getting a LOT of understanding out of this thread, myself, addressing things I've been ignorant and confused about. Since so many of the people I interact with are in the overly-bright range, I think I'd better understand them as best I can. I'm grateful this thread is here!

In fact, there are ways in which Aspie "lack of affect" appears just as chilling to NTs as the aloof, uncaring disdain of an abusive narcissist. We see exterior behavior and have trouble -- a LOT of trouble sometimes -- discerning the underlying emotional state that produces it.

So some "normals" read about a "lack of empathy" and think Asperger's must be in there with psychopathic "lack of empathy." (The terminology is horribly sloppy.) It's taken this site for me to begin to untangle that confusion! Part of the way that has been accomplished is, as clunky as it may be, the "so are all you NTs really some kind of psychopaths or what?" question.

Hits my reset button real hard and forces me to recalibrate!




Oh yuk yuk yuk ik ik ik. Psychopaths are perfectly capable of discerning your emotions and manipulating them, but don't CARE about your feelings. Psychopaths are the OPPOSITE of AS in some respects, but that does not make them NTs at all. They are seriously defective people.

There are so many flavors of nasty mean evil people. They aren't "normal" -- thank goodness!

I will never forget helping save a child from her PsychoMom. I watched that woman LIE in court to a judge to slander her ex, sexual-abuse-innuendo lies that gave me pit-of-the-stomach queasiness. She was diagnosed with Borderline Personality Disorder.

We live in a complex world.

Based on my professional work, she most likely was a victim of excessive trauma.

Biologically, eyes move in certain patterns indicating brain function generalities: remembering, feeling emotion, imaging (meaning creative or picturing visually). Once I learned these I found it gave me more information about the speaker in addition to the words. These eye patterns are well researched and used by many professions.

Example, if someone said "Yes, I'll do that." and the eyes shifted to the emotion place, I know that a positive or negative emotion is being felt (either the person truly does or does not want to do it) and I can ask clarifying questions if I feel the need depending on my relationship with the person). If the person smiled genuinely at the same time, I might feel comfortable that the person was feeling positive about doing that task. If the person did not smile and responded slowly, I might wonder if he really wanted to. I might then ask a clarifying question or say, "I think I'll take care of it this time." If the person then says, "Oh, that's great!" I have new information to act on. All of this information helps me establish better relationships with people in various situations. It can make a difference if this occurs at a workplace, with a friend, or with a new acquaintance.

Eyes also sometimes widen or narrow in certain circumstances. If someone's eyes get wide and stay wide, they might be scared. Example: Scientists did research and believe that if someone's eyes get wider for a split second when they see you that the person is happy to see you.

Sometimes people's eyes glisten with happiness. Sometimes you can see that they are about to cry before the tears start (they find you more empathetic if you hand them tissue before the tears flow). It has a lot to do with the muscles around the eyes.

Please remember that these are examples and to not be taken literally for every situation and are written to demonstrate an answer to the above question.

One thing I am sure of, after learning these and having time to observe and reflect on various facial reactions, I have been pleasantly surprised at the useful information I have received. Just this summer, a new colleague said to me, "It's like you completely understand and you don't even know me!" (Most of my conversational responses to her had been based on her non verbal cues / body language).

Question for NTs: With respect to obsessions, why is it considered more appropriate to obsess about sports and cars among NTs, but when a aspie/autist is obsessed with their interest, theyre considered and oddity?

Oh, I hear you on that one alright. Especially after dealing with men obsessed with football... who have to watch every game no matter what...

I watched an 8 year old boy today say many statistics and detailed information about a football team; yet, he is not considered autistic. This gets at my answer:

I *think* the 'appropriate' piece is in part a general sub-culture of bonding; i.e., items that have become widely accepted as a mutual topic of discussion (and money makers in this capitalist world) are promoted and accepted. Also taken into consideration with defining "unhealthy obsessions" (OCD) is the use of the person's time and whether or not there is a healthy balance of other life activities. Checking 127 times to make sure the stove is turned off is not an effective use of time. If it was off the first time, there's no reason to look again.

However, I do think you've asked a very deep cultural and sociological question here.

Quite frankly, I'm personally incredibly grateful to scientists who are "obsessed" (extreme focus? dedication? driven?) with their work. They've brought our world many improvements! I just heard on the news today about the rota virus vaccine.

I also have to say... I think the definition of 'obsessed' varies... and some people throw words like that around with indifference to a person's feelings. Also look how widely laws vary by state in the USA!

I would like him to understand that I'm not "overthinking" things and I'm not "obsessing on" or "worrying about" what might happen in various social situations. These are compensations for social deficits. When I ask him, "what is X most likely to say/do if I say/do Y?" it is not because I want to obsess about things that haven't happened yet; it is because I *need* to look at the possibilities and plan my actions according to desirable outcomes. And I *need* to be prepared for the most likely possible responses I will get so that I am not caught confused, not knowing what to do or say next.

Without this "overthinking," social interactions would be a complete mess and a nightmare, as opposed to the general anxiety and stumbling about they currently represent.

My husband seems to believe that "everything would be okay" if I could "just let go" and "just let things happen without trying to think about them so much." This just shows me that eleven years of being married to me and eight years of knowing about Asperger's Syndrome has not managed to help him fully understand the fundamental functioning of my brain.

(It's a good thing I love him.) <- this was said in a joking tone of voice. But the part about loving him is very true.

Yes! I have told my husband so many times that his stress stresses me out. He knows it, but I think he's gotten so used to grumbling about everything in his life that it's a hard habit for him to quit.

He used to say, "I'm not yelling at you. I'm yelling at the car/computer/my shoes/whatever" and I would respond that it didn't matter who/what he was yelling at, it was the emotional upset itself that was so stressful for me so now he usually doesn't bother telling me that it's not about me anymore unless he thinks it might not be clear, like when I accidentally used the wrong debit card to buy groceries and we had to rush to the bank to keep it from bouncing. He made sure I knew he wasn't upset about how much I had spent (because we have had that discussion before, about me spending too much on groceries) and he wasn't angry for me about which card I used because he wasn't clear which I should use so I used the one he had been having me use for everything at that time.

But really, it's like I'm some kind of emotional sponge. People I've dated in the past have accused me of being very moody and high strung and don't believe me when I tell them that I'm just fine when I'm alone. And they think I'm trying to shunt the blame off when I tell them that I'm moody and high strung because *they're* moody and high strung. But really, I'm just a mirror that way. Sure, I can get anxious or stressed out about my own stuff, but I get *really* anxious and stressed out when the person I'm close to is being very visibly agitated.

To NTs:

What is the meaning to losing one's virginity by an early age, and why does not having done so earn ridicule?

On one hand, it depends on who you talk to.

On the other hand, you ask a deep sociological question.

There are so many ways to respond...

I'm sure you're aware of the rise of mass media in the last 60 years... I believe the answer to your question would have been different early last century? Now privileged life styles lead to endless hours of socialization, especially around "the great American past time". Part of the difference is how common is the interest? People like to have conversations. There are more humans who can fake it through an auto or sport conversation than there are people who can have an intelligent conversation about insects. I was very interested this week to learn of the rotavirus vaccine. That, however, is generally not common conversation. Of course, sports arenas are frequently filled with inebriated souls... obsessed or an excuse to drink? Or, isn't it "odd" that so many people do not care enough to raise an intelligent child and, instead, use a t.v. as a babysitter and the child ends up in speech therapy as a result? You see, sometimes it's a matter of perspective.

An unhealthy obsession (OCD) is checking 73 times to see if the stove is off; when once was sufficient.

Personally, I appreciate scientists with "obsessions" (dedication; focus) that have led to many wonderful discoveries.

Oh, and not all "NTs" obsess about sports or cars. I know many who don't have a t.v.; are not sports regulars; who choose to train or bicycle (to help the environment and get exercise); etc.

Its as if you haven't been through some rite of passage whereby you prove you're capable of "doing it."

It seems to be important enough to some people that they will even "help" their afflicted friend overcome the lack of sexual experience by taking him to a professional to make him not a virgin any more. I knew some people who thought they were being helpful but probably badly traumatized the person involved.

I believe they also got him drunk first, or at least tried to.

In fact, there is a similar feeling about drinking. People will feel it enhances their status to be able to drink a lot of alcohol, and joke about how they feel the morning after. Its like some kid of macho thing to get really drunk.

(Of course, this is all supposed to apply to males (at least that's the way I remember it).)

If people really like you, they try to find you a "nice girl" for you to date. They often find you THEIR idea of a nice girl, of course, and so nervousness and impasse result.

I don't know if there's any way to explain to people that there ways of experiencing things are not necessarily your ways.

If this just isn't something you want to have to talk about, can you make it a non-topic?