difference between Asperger's and high functioning autism

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Oh, now I see. I know-10 (the European classification system for diseases) schizoid disorder of childhood is included with AS. But I thought you were meaning ot imply that schzoid PD is pretty much the same as AS except fo rits occurring in adulthood. I would agree if you meant that schizoid PD may be a form of AS, bu tnot if they were intrinsically the same thing (as in, every Aspie is also schizoid from childhood).

Nah, they're not the same thing. The same with AS and HFA (there's hard neurological evidence that says they aren't the same thing, even if there's a lot of symptom overlap; social impairment is as social impairment goes, in other words).

Saying what's the difference between Schizoid PD and AS is no different than saying what's the difference between AS and HFA. For example, more people with HFA are of the social and emotional aloof make (more withdrawn), whereas more people with AS are active participants in social and emotional events, it's just that they have a severe impairment in the ability to partake in it. You then have people with SPD who are withdrawn by choice, but can still interact when the time comes, whereas the person with HFA is withdrawn but can't interact when the time comes. People with AS interact, but it's very, very eccentric and odd.

I'm "officially" aspie, but I have some of the traits of HFA too.

I'm a "loner" who doesn't like social interaction, and my social skills are quite lacking, for instance.

That first one would be more of a Schizoid make, as it's not liking social interaction (you can have Schizoid PD and AS together), whereas the person with HFA just doesn't see social interaction. The social deficits in AS are just as severe as those in HFA, it's just that they're different in appearance; I'd expect you to lack social skills if you have AS. I mean, really, really and really lack them.

I think it's strange that you could be having both AS and schizoid PD, since you can't have both an ASD and schizotypal PD...for some stupid reason the PD gets precedence (so if you have schizotypal PD, you can't be diagnosed with an ASD).

'there is a largely artificial distinction drawn between them'

Sorry but disagree.S.Ozonoff conducted a study many years ago to look for clinical differances between HFA and AS and found AS has theory of mind but had problems perceiving emotion on the face whilst HFA did not have theory of mind but could perceive emotion on the face.
Im diagnosed with AS not HFA and am not happy at the idea of combining them into one diagnostic category.Its hard enough explaining what i can or cannot do without further confusion.I often wonder if those supporting the removal of AS from the diagnostic categories so that all are diagnosed and treated as HFA actually are diagnosed as AS or routinely have to care for someone with AS...

That's got to be a massive oversimplification given that a large percent of people labeled HFA can pass theory of mind tests fine.

But more than that -- it makes sense. The most common theory of mind test uses the most complex language structures in the English language. People with HFA have more language impairments than people with AS. Therefore people with HFA will flunk the test more often. Says nothing about theory of mind though. When given
a non-language-based theory of mind test autistic kids do as well or slightly better than nonautistic kids.

Want to know more?

http://psych.wisc.edu/lang/pdf/Gernsbac ... odules.pdf

See I'm confused because I was diagnosed with Asperger's but when I was 4-5 I did not speak well and mixed up my words and did not speak as intricately as other kids my age. I also had "elective mutism." Problem is I didn't consider all that as speech delay so when I was diagnosed, it may have been wrong? I'm not sure if what I stated counts as "Speech delay." But yeah I've heard that is the marker between HF Autism and Asperger's.

Yeah, technically you should've been diagnosed either autism or PDD-NOS. But it doesn't really matter--either label will get you what you need in most places, so there's no reason to worry about the specific category unless you are missing stuff you need because of the specific label.

The official distinction is about speech delay, not this stuff, but there are some interesting associations.

According to things like this, I am some weird hybrid of NT, Aspie and HFA

This one is true, though there is some debate over someone can have mild speech delays and be aspie.

I think I had a mild speech delay when I was little.



I think a lot of people only seek social interaction when it suits them, myself included. I'd like to share enjoyments, but I don't 'always seek' it by a long shot.



Not necessarily, but in my case the sensory issues are on the milder side.



IDK about these.



I highly doubt this is true. Keep in mind that internet forums like this tend to attract the ubersmartypants's

This is also tricky due to how uneven abilities tend to be for those on the spectrum, frm some perspectives I'm dumb as a post but from others I am quite bright.



Again, I'm not sure. I think I show a lot of affect but I'm not sure, and I don't know about personal space.


There is such a variety of weirdness among the weirdness that making all of those distinctions is doomed to fail. It's already hard enough to draw the line between LFA, MFA, HFA, Asperger's, BAP, and NT. We've all got our own set of perceptions and challenges.

No, "official" distinction is not about speech delay (this is the "unofficial" distinction made up by psychiatrists), and no, a diagnosis of autism does not require the presence of a speech delay - AS requires the absence of speech delay, but the opposite is not true: you can be autistic without a speech delay, if you have other type of impairment in communication, like "marked impairment in the ability to initiate or sustain a conversation with others".

I have some questions.

Do those with Asperger's not have language problems? Or tend not to? Are those with Asperger's good with language? And by that, I am meaning speech. (EDIT, actually now I'm curious about both speech and using language in writing).

Are those on the spectrum with language/speech problems more with the autism diagnoses (and by "autism" I am talking about the specific autism spectrum diagnoses, of "autism").

For all I know both can have speech and language issues and I guess it's all likely to change to ASD but I am just wondering.

I'll find out soon enough when I try to get my official diagnosis, although I suspect AS is most likely.

I do have speech issues, although I don't think they're obvious to most people who talk to me:

I was hyperlexic, and my mother describes at least some of my early speech as echolalia (although she doesn't realize that this is what it was). I started using sentences at 13 months, and I demonstrated that I had at some point been teaching myself how to read at three years. I had quite a history of mispronouncing and misusing words that I had learned through context (reading) rather than by other means.

For that matter, I still repeat things back to people. Although it's not so frequent now, it's not always voluntary.

I find that I sometimes talk on autopilot, like my brain and thoughts are not entirely engaged with my mouth when I talk to people. I mean, to the point on occasion that I may as well just not talk. Sometimes this gets really bad when I completely zone out of a conversation while continuing to talk, and even miss instructions or information while I agree I understand it (this happened at the end of December while doing some paperwork). I usually just keep using scripted phrases and responses in these situations.

There is one person who lives in the same house as me with whom I either won't talk at all, or I only speak to in the above fashion. It is very difficult for me to actually communicate what I am thinking to him, and I usually tell someone else and she passes it along. This is completely informal, however, and has been going on for the five and a half years I've lived here.

I also find I sometimes have difficulty putting my thoughts into words. Like I end up talking in circles or talking myself into knots trying to make a point but losing it at the same time. This can happen in writing, but not as frequently. It's bad enough that at least some people who have met me in person have noticed. It can happen right at the start of a conversation - and I end up having to start over after making no sense for a few sentences. This happens a lot when I'm trying to order fast food. It's like I start talking before my brain even catches on that I need to mentally assemble my order.

Palilalia - I sometimes get stuck repeating something I've said, like I can't move on to the next word or phrase. I don't even notice until after three or four repetitions, at which point I can usually stop.

My speech is pretty fluent (or at least fluent-sounding) but has plenty of odd issues. It's primarily this that first started tipping me off that I might be autistic (echolalia and palilalia) over a decade ago. Since it's much easier to avoid these issues in text, I spend most of my time socializing online and getting to know people that way before meeting them face to face (and having to deal with my own speech issues, socialization issues, and trying to make a good first impression). Also, meeting people the first time all of these issues are worse. And I mean I was doing the online socialization thing for years before I even had a hint of a thought I might be autistic - it was just easier to get to know people that way, and make a first impression without the immediate - often unavoidable - social issues that I typically had in person.

I didn't even all this suggested I had any kind of speech problems until I read another's (diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome) account of her own similar problems and similar coping mechanisms:

http://www.existenceiswonderful.com/200 ... erent.html
http://www.existenceiswonderful.com/200 ... -fine.html

And a lot of things clicked.

So I think I'll likely be diagnosed with AS, and I have language problems. Anne Corwin (the blogger linked above) is diagnosed with AS. I think others have talked about this here on Wrong Planet. I think that it's easier to hide these problems because of verbal fluency.

I also think that there are people diagnosed with autistic disorder or PDD-NOS who have described similar problems who also have had more obvious speech/language difficulties, but I can't point to any links right offhand.

I talked at normal age my mom told me but I also would ask questions over and over no matter what the answer given (perseveration maybe). I also have repetitive phrases I say out loud at home. Sometimes I say them when I'm excited or very nervous. I'll also say them for reasons I'm not even sure why. They do change though.

I ask this because the one person I've talked to the most in my life tells me I definitely have language problems but they might be mild. She says I can talk enough to communicate to get work done, not a ton of talking, but beyond that I have some issues or roadblocks with language itself. I'm not even sure to what it all is, mild or not. She's almost the only one I get feedback from. I don't know how to explain exactly.

I don't know if I had selective mutism but I started talking more these last few years. In a way I sort of didn't talk much in most situations, not much at all. I just know it gets brought to my attention that I used not really talk at work (still not a whole lot, I think, maybe).

I'm thinking about this more because of a couple posts I did on this thread. I explained some of my speech and language problems here.
http://www.wrongplanet.net/posts148759-start15.html

According to the italicized, that means the distinction is speech delay. If people with Asperger's cannot have a speech delay, but people with general autism may or may not, then that is a difference. I guess I meant to say that only half of (1.) was true. But what seperates AS from the rest of the autism spectrum in the DSM-IV is about having to lack (significant?) speech delay and the intellectual functioning having to be in the normal or advanced range.

DSM IV TR Autism Diagnostic criteria A.2.B

in individuals with adequate speech, marked impairment in the ability to initiate or sustain a conversation with others

Note the phrase "adequate speech". Speech delay is not required.



Autism A.1.B

failure to develop peer relationships appropriate to developmental level

Asperger's A.2

. failure to develop peer relationships appropriate to developmental level

Autism A.1.C

a lack of spontaneous seeking to share enjoyment, interests, or achievements with other people (e.g., by a lack of showing, bringing, or pointing out objects of interest)

Asperger's A.3

a lack of spontaneous seeking to share enjoyment, interests, or achievements with other people (e.g., by a lack of showing, bringing, or pointing out objects of interest to other people)





Sensory issues are not in the diagnostic criteria for either Autism or Asperger's.



There is nothing in the diagnostic criteria that would indicate learning differences in acquisition of social information.



There is nothing in the diagnostic criteria regarding concrete thinking.



Anecdotal evidence. Aspies only need to meet this criteria:

Aspergers E

There is no clinically significant delay in cognitive development or in the development of age-appropriate self-help skills, adaptive behavior (other than in social interaction), and curiosity about the environment in childhood.




Range of Affect is not in the diagnostic criteria for either autism or Asperger's



I don't think "personal space" is in the criteria for ANY disorder in the DSM IV.



Basically, you just parroted every single stereotype about people on the spectrum.

Well done! (Is sarcasm an aspie or HFA trait?)

Last edited by wavefreak58 on 14 Jan 2011, 11:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.