Cultural Aspergers Hypothesis
13 Mar 2012, 4:07 pm
fraac wrote:
So how many identical twins have one autistic and one not? I'm still amazed there are any. (Yes, for real!?!?!?)
From the study:
Quote:
Ultimately, this group was winnowed to 192 twin pairs -- 54 identical and 138 fraternal -- for genetic analysis. Since autism disproportionately affects males, males outnumbered females by four to five times, with 80 of the pairs including both sexes.
Concordance for ASD was 77 percent among identical male pairs, and 31 percent among fraternal male pairs. In females, concordance for ASD was more closely spaced -- 50% for identical and 36% for fraternal pairs. By contrast, previous studies had found concordance rates for fraternal twins that were much lower, ranging only in the single digits.
Concordance for ASD was 77 percent among identical male pairs, and 31 percent among fraternal male pairs. In females, concordance for ASD was more closely spaced -- 50% for identical and 36% for fraternal pairs. By contrast, previous studies had found concordance rates for fraternal twins that were much lower, ranging only in the single digits.
23% of identical male pairs have one ASD twin and one non-ASD twin.
50% of identical female pairs have one ASD twin and one non-ASD twin.
69% of fraternal male pairs have one ASD twin and one non-ASD twin.
64% of fraternal female pairs have one ASD twin and one non-ASD twin.
13 Mar 2012, 5:33 pm
Ganondox wrote:
Poke wrote:
If we took all of the broken clocks and isolated them from the ones that worked properly, would they no longer be broken?
If we thought about it would we realize that this metaphor is completely irrelevant?
Not really. Effective social/communication functional abilities among the members of any society are necessary for the society to function.
While the environment has been suggested to play a role in the development of the actual diagnosed disorders, those environmental factors are suspected as developmental ones as well as cultural ones.
The developmental ones would not necessarily be eliminated in a culture specific to individuals with the traits of Aspergers.
Many individuals with Aspergers improve their deficiencies in social/communication skills with the exposure to those that do not have significant impairments in social communication.
In a society where everyone had problems with social communication, the result would be reduced effective social communication for all.
While we certainly don't want to see ourselves as broken, per DSMIV guidelines, those with actual diagnoses of aspergers, are assessed as having a social communication/RRB disorder, that is a source of considerable disability, because the problems significantly impair one in a important area of life functioning.
If one has been part of an aspergers support group, and been in an actual room full of individuals with aspergers, it is clear that it is not an avenue for a well-oiled society.
Society has benefitted from the skills that traits from aspergers brings to the table, but those effective social/communication skills that others bring to the table, are a core requirement for any society to function. This has been objectively and solidly evidenced in the historical and prehistoric records of human beings.
And, for those individuals with Autism Disorder, that lack the ability to communicate, many are dependent on those in society without communication disabilities, to survive.
The hypothesis is easy to test. Just get 12 to 15 unrelated individuals with Aspergers in a room, and see if you can come up with a group activity outside of that room that 4 of those individuals can agree upon to participate in, or are even interested in.
Then imagine the scale of that issue as it can be applied to the functionality of the group efforts/common interests that are required in the full scale of actual societies.
Or one can review the many threads here, where most everyone has different ideas and rules of how their Asperger's society would have to work, to meet their standards.
Individuals with Aspergers need the social butterflies for a society to work, every bit as much as the social butterflies need the skills and abilities that neurodiversity brings to a society.
That said there are niches in societies and different societies that are probably easier for an individual with Aspergers to thrive in, but it's not likely that any of them, are originated from an Aspergers only effort.
And beyond this, one must remember that a voluntary internet site, like this selects interest from individuals with Aspergers from the entire population of those with internet access. There are about 1500 people viewing the site at any given time, most of which probably do not have an ASD. But, there are only 20 to 40 individuals actually communicating with each other at any given time.
Cultural activities are announced, for autism across many internet sites for the "autistic community" but rarely do more than 100 people out of entire countries participate.
So, basically the hypothesis has already been indirectly tested in several different ways, with overwhelming evidence that an Aspergers Society, in the real world, would have little to no chance of success.
The social/communication/RRB problems associated with functionality would likely still exist and potentially be worse without assistance from others, without these specific difficulties.
The good news is that society needs diversity among it's people's to solve the problems that arise for the survival of the society has a whole. When the people in a society can no longer cooperate because of their perceived differences it falls apart. It is why it is more important to focus on what connects us with others rather than what disconnects us.
People with Aspergers have to work harder at this than most, but it is part of what leads to the valuable contributions to society that are made, because of that perseverance.
13 Mar 2012, 5:46 pm
No, it would not be that easy to test. The main focus of this hypothesis is not, as everyone seems to believe, if aspies can get a long fine together, but on developmental windows, and the neuroplascity of the brain. If you take 25 random people with Aspergers they will have already have been influenced by society.
The reason the clock metaphor is completely irrelevan is:
1. People are not clocks.
2. Clocks do not interact with each other.
3. Clocks do not adapt over time.
_________________
Cinnamon and sugary
Softly Spoken lies
You never know just how you look
Through other people's eyes
Autism FAQs http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt186115.html
13 Mar 2012, 7:30 pm
Ganondox wrote:
The reason the clock metaphor is completely irrelevan is:
1. People are not clocks.
1. People are not clocks.
So the metaphor is irrelevant because it's a metaphor. Not a strong start.
Quote:
2. Clocks do not interact with each other.
3. Clocks do not adapt over time.
3. Clocks do not adapt over time.
The whole concept of "metaphor" seems to be alien to you.
13 Mar 2012, 8:08 pm
Poke wrote:
Ganondox wrote:
The reason the clock metaphor is completely irrelevan is:
1. People are not clocks.
1. People are not clocks.
So the metaphor is irrelevant because it's a metaphor. Not a strong start.
Quote:
2. Clocks do not interact with each other.
3. Clocks do not adapt over time.
3. Clocks do not adapt over time.
The whole concept of "metaphor" seems to be alien to you.
I mean people are too different from clocks for the metaphor to be relevant. I might as well say "if you draw a stickmen it can't draw other stickmen" to prove that self replication of man made things is impossible.
_________________
Cinnamon and sugary
Softly Spoken lies
You never know just how you look
Through other people's eyes
Autism FAQs http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt186115.html
13 Mar 2012, 9:38 pm
Ganondox wrote:
I mean people are too different from clocks for the metaphor to be relevant.
Again, you seem to have real difficulty with the concept of metaphor. Actually, it might be more appropriate to call it an analogy. In any case, it's validity has nothing to do with how similar people are to clocks. The commonality between the Aspie/autistic scenario and the clock scenario is that things that are "broken" will not cease to be broken just because you segregate them from properly-working things. The point is that there is something really objectively "broken" or wrong with autistic individuals that doesn't disappear when you segregate them from normally functioning people.
Of course, there was more to your set of assumptions than that, but the analogy wasn't supposed to be absolute or serve as a response to everything you proposed or work on every conceivable level.
I might add that it feels downright weird having to explain this to someone.
Quote:
I might as well say "if you draw a stickmen it can't draw other stickmen" to prove that self replication of man made things is impossible.
This is in no way comparable to my clock analogy. You really do sound confused.
14 Mar 2012, 12:20 am
Ganondox wrote:
No, it would not be that easy to test. The main focus of this hypothesis is not, as everyone seems to believe, if aspies can get a long fine together, but on developmental windows, and the neuroplascity of the brain. If you take 25 random people with Aspergers they will have already have been influenced by society.
The reason the clock metaphor is completely irrelevan is:
1. People are not clocks.
2. Clocks do not interact with each other.
3. Clocks do not adapt over time.
The reason the clock metaphor is completely irrelevan is:
1. People are not clocks.
2. Clocks do not interact with each other.
3. Clocks do not adapt over time.
Neuroplasticity is impacted by the diversity of the environment. It's less likely that people with the same type of inherent communication problems will adapt as it is for those people with inherent communication problems to adapt if they are surrounded by people without the inherent communication problems. Some adapt quite well, some don't. But, without the necessity of adaptation, it is less likely to happen, and the inherent communication problems are more likely to continue as is.
.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metaphor
Quote:
A metaphor is a literary figure of speech that uses an image, story or tangible object to represent a less tangible object or some intangible quality or idea.
Just to point out objective evidence that a metaphor can be an object used to describe a construct that is less tangible.
Difficulties in understanding abstract/figurative language (metaphors, idioms, etc.) is a clinical feature of Aspergers, that is commonly observed.
This is an example of dysfunction in Aspergers, that is obviously an inherent one. However it is also an area that many improve in as they experience more of it in their life experience in dealing with others.
However, if you can imagine a society that existed with Aspergers that had difficulty using or understand metaphor; it would be much harder to gain greater skills in understanding and using metaphor without interaction with those that use it.
It's a pretty good example of why communication difficulties could be increased, if individuals with these communication difficulties were separated from those that didn't have them.
There is actually an academy for individuals with Aspergers that prepares them for college. The folks that work at this school focus on the issues of individuals with Aspergers and help them to gain social skills to be successful in college. 97% of their graduates go on to college or advanced skills training, so they appear to be successful in this endeavor.
The following comments from the Director of the School describes some of the inherent issues with communication quite well I think, that are common but not necessarily shared by everyone with a diagnosis. Aspergers and NLD has been the focus of her life's work, in helping individuals with their social communication difficulties.
This is her attempt to provide insight to others on how to communicate with individuals with Aspergers and NLD, from her school that are going to work at the Oakland Zoo.
Unfortunately we don't have PHD's to explain our communication differences to others, when we enter school or the workplace.
The individuals in this school environment have that advantage. The point is, though, that these are inherent communication differences, that are not a result of interaction with society at large.
They exist as a result of neurocognitive differences; plasticity is a result of new experiences not the same experiences.
http://www.orionacademy.org/resources/aspergers-syndrome-and-nonverbal-learning-disorder/
Quote:
Asperger’s Syndrome and Nonverbal Learning Disorder
A Brief Overview
By: Kathryn Stewart, PhD
Orion Academy 2005-2006
Volunteer Training Program with the Oakland Zoo
Asperger’s Syndrome (AS) is a developmental disorder that is a continuous and lifelong condition. It is possible for an individual to learn how to manage the symptoms and become capable of gainful employment and development of relationships. It is diagnosed much more frequently in males than females. Nonverbal Learning Disorder (NLD) is a learning disability that is manifest by difficulties in information processing, social skills and sensory integration, but is also characterized by high IQ and excellent verbal skills (not necessarily communication skills). NLD is said to be equally diagnosed in males and females. The overlap between NLD and AS is significant and many children and teens fall into a category that is somewhere on the spectrum between NLD and AS.
Children with Asperger’s and NLD struggle in reading subtle social cues and have trouble fitting in with their peers. They often have highly developed vocabulary but have difficulty using language to interact. They understand the content of the words but often miss the emotional implications language can have. Language is used to tell others things or speak in a monologue instead. They talk at people, not with them. Another challenge for these children is monitoring their speech prosody (tone, volume and the speed of their delivery). Metaphor, analogy, nuance, sarcasm, and humor are hard for them to comprehend.
It is common for these individuals to have sensitivity to sound, touch, and visual stimuli. They have difficulties with executive functioning (planning, organizing, and integration of thinking). Dysgraphia (inability to produce written words) and problems taking action and following through with problem solving is also common. They have trouble understanding cause and effect and therefore cannot predict consequences.
It is a common mis-belief that individuals with AS are autistic – they are not. AS is a separate disorder and NOT just a form of higher functioning autism (as you will often hear). The deficit in social relationships in AS differ significantly from autism, as does the basis of the language disorder.
Associated Features and Disorders
•Often early diagnosis is Attention-Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder
•Frequent association with Depressive Disorders. It is suspected that Asperger’s is often linked with Anxiety Disorders as well.
In developing a program for NLD and AS teens to work at the Oakland Zoo, the following list may be helpful in understanding some GENERAL issues, common to AS and NLD teens. As with all kids, not ALL of these issues apply to every student from Orion Academy.
Adolescents with Asperger’s Syndrome and/or Nonverbal Learning Disorder often:
•Want very much to be appreciated and respected, just like any “neurotypical” teenager
•Are very concrete thinkers, viewing everything dualistically—black and white, all or nothing, good or bad; keep in mind that everything you say to them will be taken literally
•Have difficulty interpreting nonverbal social cues and facial expressions; if you want them to “get the message,” tell them what the message is
•Often cannot understand the perspectives of other people unless they are stated
•Are not always aware of others’ emotions, even if it seems obvious to you
•Might express anxiety by either acting out (becoming upset) or withdrawing
•Have trouble regulating their arousal states (can become either overly anxious/hyper or under-stimulated, seem sleepy or distracted)
•Have trouble regulating their tone, rhythm, volume of voice (speech prosody)
•Have strong rote learning skills and are good at memorizing facts and rules
•Have poor gross motor skills- clumsiness is often an issue until the specific motor skills are practiced
•Have poor body posture
•Process information slowly at times; they might not understand what is said to them as quickly as one might expect
•Lack the ability to integrate and organize new information; identifying the main idea of a conversation or the main point of an assignment – make it concrete and clear
•Struggle with handwriting, but often (especially Orion students) do very well with a computer
•Do not always understand humor, analogy, metaphor, and other abstract ideas
•Do not always enjoy being around groups of people, particularly new people
•Are awkward in conversations—lack grace when beginning or ending conversation, do not make eye contact
•Can be verbose, engaging in monologues at others as opposed to mutual interactions with others.
•Do not handle change very well, preferring to stick to strict routines
•Can become preoccupied with specific interests or objects to the point of obsession
•Sometimes engage in repetitive motor mannerisms such as hand flapping or rocking. (This is NOT something to be encouraged and gentle reminders about the behavior are appreciated)
•May have sensitivity to light, sound, or touch
•All symptoms become more pronounced during times of stress
Kathryn Stewart, PhD, Executive Director, Orion Academy
This document was prepared with the help of Ashley Mullins and John Brown; both are PhD students from the Wright Institute in Berkeley and have interned at Orion.
A Brief Overview
By: Kathryn Stewart, PhD
Orion Academy 2005-2006
Volunteer Training Program with the Oakland Zoo
Asperger’s Syndrome (AS) is a developmental disorder that is a continuous and lifelong condition. It is possible for an individual to learn how to manage the symptoms and become capable of gainful employment and development of relationships. It is diagnosed much more frequently in males than females. Nonverbal Learning Disorder (NLD) is a learning disability that is manifest by difficulties in information processing, social skills and sensory integration, but is also characterized by high IQ and excellent verbal skills (not necessarily communication skills). NLD is said to be equally diagnosed in males and females. The overlap between NLD and AS is significant and many children and teens fall into a category that is somewhere on the spectrum between NLD and AS.
Children with Asperger’s and NLD struggle in reading subtle social cues and have trouble fitting in with their peers. They often have highly developed vocabulary but have difficulty using language to interact. They understand the content of the words but often miss the emotional implications language can have. Language is used to tell others things or speak in a monologue instead. They talk at people, not with them. Another challenge for these children is monitoring their speech prosody (tone, volume and the speed of their delivery). Metaphor, analogy, nuance, sarcasm, and humor are hard for them to comprehend.
It is common for these individuals to have sensitivity to sound, touch, and visual stimuli. They have difficulties with executive functioning (planning, organizing, and integration of thinking). Dysgraphia (inability to produce written words) and problems taking action and following through with problem solving is also common. They have trouble understanding cause and effect and therefore cannot predict consequences.
It is a common mis-belief that individuals with AS are autistic – they are not. AS is a separate disorder and NOT just a form of higher functioning autism (as you will often hear). The deficit in social relationships in AS differ significantly from autism, as does the basis of the language disorder.
Associated Features and Disorders
•Often early diagnosis is Attention-Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder
•Frequent association with Depressive Disorders. It is suspected that Asperger’s is often linked with Anxiety Disorders as well.
In developing a program for NLD and AS teens to work at the Oakland Zoo, the following list may be helpful in understanding some GENERAL issues, common to AS and NLD teens. As with all kids, not ALL of these issues apply to every student from Orion Academy.
Adolescents with Asperger’s Syndrome and/or Nonverbal Learning Disorder often:
•Want very much to be appreciated and respected, just like any “neurotypical” teenager
•Are very concrete thinkers, viewing everything dualistically—black and white, all or nothing, good or bad; keep in mind that everything you say to them will be taken literally
•Have difficulty interpreting nonverbal social cues and facial expressions; if you want them to “get the message,” tell them what the message is
•Often cannot understand the perspectives of other people unless they are stated
•Are not always aware of others’ emotions, even if it seems obvious to you
•Might express anxiety by either acting out (becoming upset) or withdrawing
•Have trouble regulating their arousal states (can become either overly anxious/hyper or under-stimulated, seem sleepy or distracted)
•Have trouble regulating their tone, rhythm, volume of voice (speech prosody)
•Have strong rote learning skills and are good at memorizing facts and rules
•Have poor gross motor skills- clumsiness is often an issue until the specific motor skills are practiced
•Have poor body posture
•Process information slowly at times; they might not understand what is said to them as quickly as one might expect
•Lack the ability to integrate and organize new information; identifying the main idea of a conversation or the main point of an assignment – make it concrete and clear
•Struggle with handwriting, but often (especially Orion students) do very well with a computer
•Do not always understand humor, analogy, metaphor, and other abstract ideas
•Do not always enjoy being around groups of people, particularly new people
•Are awkward in conversations—lack grace when beginning or ending conversation, do not make eye contact
•Can be verbose, engaging in monologues at others as opposed to mutual interactions with others.
•Do not handle change very well, preferring to stick to strict routines
•Can become preoccupied with specific interests or objects to the point of obsession
•Sometimes engage in repetitive motor mannerisms such as hand flapping or rocking. (This is NOT something to be encouraged and gentle reminders about the behavior are appreciated)
•May have sensitivity to light, sound, or touch
•All symptoms become more pronounced during times of stress
Kathryn Stewart, PhD, Executive Director, Orion Academy
This document was prepared with the help of Ashley Mullins and John Brown; both are PhD students from the Wright Institute in Berkeley and have interned at Orion.
The following link takes one to her presentation on Non-verbal learning disorder, that is quite interesting in that it affects as many females as it does males. And it is more representative of the full range of symptoms reported in online communities for Aspergers.
In her view Aspergers and Autism are related but separate disorders, and NLD is closely related to Aspergers. The communication difficulties do appear to be significantly different as well as cognitive strengths; she explains those differences well. However it is not within the current mainstream view of classification.
http://www.orionacademy.org/NLD.html
14 Mar 2012, 8:36 am
aghogday wrote:
Difficulties in understanding abstract/figurative language (metaphors, idioms, etc.) is a clinical feature of Aspergers, that is commonly observed.
Autism comes with several built-in mechanisms that prevent the understanding of autism.
No wonder this board is so full of misunderstanding.
14 Mar 2012, 10:39 am
"Difficulties in understanding abstract/figurative language (metaphors, idioms, etc.) is a clinical feature of Aspergers, that is commonly observed."
I don't have this. Just the between-the-lines stuff where you need the same motives for it to make sense.
Identical twins concordance is only ~70%. Surely that's where you stop asking questions. They're identical twins! Same genetics, same pre-natal environment, same post-natal environment. Game over.
14 Mar 2012, 2:33 pm
Goddammit, I know perfectly well what metaphors and analogies are! What I'm saying is the whole click metaphor doesn't work because a broken clock is completely different from a "broken" human, and they way they are different is where the analogy looses relavance. And yes, the analogy I gave was crap, but to go meta on you my analogy was just as relevant to your analogy as your analogy was relevant to my hypothesis. Maybe I should just STFU as its apparent that there is some serious communication issues going on here!
_________________
Cinnamon and sugary
Softly Spoken lies
You never know just how you look
Through other people's eyes
Autism FAQs http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt186115.html
14 Mar 2012, 4:03 pm
fraac wrote:
"Difficulties in understanding abstract/figurative language (metaphors, idioms, etc.) is a clinical feature of Aspergers, that is commonly observed."
I don't have this. Just the between-the-lines stuff where you need the same motives for it to make sense.
Identical twins concordance is only ~70%. Surely that's where you stop asking questions. They're identical twins! Same genetics, same pre-natal environment, same post-natal environment. Game over.
I don't have this. Just the between-the-lines stuff where you need the same motives for it to make sense.
Identical twins concordance is only ~70%. Surely that's where you stop asking questions. They're identical twins! Same genetics, same pre-natal environment, same post-natal environment. Game over.
http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cognitive_Psychology_and_Cognitive_Neuroscience/Motivation_and_Emotion
Quote:
(2)Social communication Autists have problems with verbal and non-verbal communication, for example, they do not fully understand the meaning of common gestures, facial expressions or the voice tones. They often show reduced or even no eye-contact as well, avoid body contact like shaking hands and have difficulties to understand metaphores and "to read between the lines".
The ability to read between the lines is part of the clinical feature in aspergers in problems in understanding metaphor in language. People use indirect language to express their motivations, and part of this communication can be displayed in their non-verbal language, in face to face communication. Having the same motivations is not a normal requirement for this ability.
The ability to determine and understand different motivations in others through "reading between" the lines, is determined by one's ability to understand figurative verbal language and determine subtle changes in emotions through non-verbal language.
A big part of understanding other people's motivations, is being able to understand the subtle non-verbal clues they give off, to provide this information. This is a problem that many individuals with non-verbal learning disorders have, including individuals with Aspergers.
People without non-verbal communication difficulties vary in their ability to decode non-verbal language; some people study it and are brought in as experts do determine the most subtle aspects of non-verbal language, in determining what emotions/motivations underly communication.
People with Aspergers don't share the same motivations/emtions with each other any more than people without aspergers. The problem can be that they do not always provide the non-verbal clues, or figurative language that allow others to understand their differences in motives/emotions.
In communication, to effectively deal with people it's important to provide the non-verbal information as well as the ability to understand it, to avoid miscommunication. The inability to read between the lines, can be quite disabling in everyday communication, regardless if one is speaking to an individual with Aspergers or without aspergers.
Perhaps the largest part of this communication problem is, in how hard it is for someone to understand they actually have a problem with communication, when they don't understand what typical communication abilities consist of.
They are not to blame, because in many cases they don't have the inherent ability to understand the non-verbal/figurative language required for typical understanding of interpersonal communication. On the other hand, if they don't understand it, the people communicating with them, are certainly not at fault for not seeing inherent difficulties with communication.
This can be a huge barrier because both parties can come to the logical decision that they are being ignored, disrespected, and/or taken advantage of by the other party. But again, the communication barrier can be even more difficult between two individuals with Aspergers, because there may be no clue to either party that anything is wrong in communicating ones emotions/motivations through non-verbal and figurative language.
In other words, the same emotions and motivations may be assumed, but they may be entirely different, because of these difficulties in expressing them through communication.
The 67% concordance rates among identical twins, is pretty good evidence that environment plays a role, but it is only a starting point for additional research to replicate the results and to find out what the environmental factors are that makes the difference. If the environmental factors can be isolated there is the potential of preventing or mitigating the disorder.
There is also the issue of the fairly new emphasis on epigenetics and how identical genes in twins may be influenced differently by varying environmental factors. For instance, in a difficult birth with twins, one twin may be deprived of oxygen and the other twin may not, which could potentially impact genetic expression of the genes. However, this isn't going to be something that is easily evidenced.
The same issues could also apply to fraternal twins.
So, in other words while the concordance rates of environment and genetic influence may differ, it doesn't mean that genetics and environment don't play some type of role together in every instance of ASD. This study doesn't provide evidence that environment or genetics plays no role or is the only role, in any of these cases studied.
14 Mar 2012, 4:25 pm
Anyway, back to what I was trying to say.
So the main thing I really want to bring up is feral children. See, feral children often appear very similar to those with severe autism. Now, some theorize that this may be because only autistic children could survive on their own like that, but that's not the arguement I want to use. Rather, they loose the ability to socialize and learn socially do to social isolation. My first point is thar autism's severity is both influenced by neurological factors, and docial factors. The more severe the combines social disconnection is in early childhood, the more severely it will manifest later on in life, even if the social environment is changed. Part of this assumes that people will connect better with people with similar neurologies, just as people connect better with people of similar cultures. The other point of the hypothesis is more of this: if everyone is broken, no one is. Disability is relative to the conditions that the majority of the population have; if most people had the same savant skill, then those without it would be considered to be disabled. In a society where the general neurology and culture was more autistic, you would have to be more severely affected to be considered disabled. This second point is different from the first point. The first point is neuroplascity and early development, the second point is relative disabity. Is my hypothesis clear now?
_________________
Cinnamon and sugary
Softly Spoken lies
You never know just how you look
Through other people's eyes
Autism FAQs http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt186115.html
14 Mar 2012, 4:28 pm
Ganondox wrote:
Goddammit, I know perfectly well what metaphors and analogies are! What I'm saying is the whole click metaphor doesn't work because a broken clock is completely different from a "broken" human, and they way they are different is where the analogy looses relavance. And yes, the analogy I gave was crap, but to go meta on you my analogy was just as relevant to your analogy as your analogy was relevant to my hypothesis. Maybe I should just STFU as its apparent that there is some serious communication issues going on here!
This is evidence of how hard communication can be between different individuals with Aspergers, when there is no intention to miscommunicate. Every person diagnosed with an ASD on this site has serious problems with communication, otherwise they would not have been diagnosed with an ASD. That requires a great deal of patience in gaining a proper understanding of communication.
However, it is good evidence that the communication difficulties in a society composed of individuals with ASD's, would likey be more problematic than the difficulties of communication in the society as it exists now. There is a great deal more evidence of this, if one peruses the threads on this site.
The STFU comment would probably be the end result of an Aspergers community for many. People would probably eventually give up on communicating with each other. It happens here all the time. Evidence that it can definitely be a disorder that can disable one in communication.
However it doesn't have to be that way, if we maintain patience and try to bridge the gaps of misunderstanding; although in some cases it may be entirely impossible to bridge gaps of communication, because of inherent neurocognitive differences, which are understood to disable all of us diagnosed, to some degree, whether we are aware of it or not.
I can tell you what a metaphor, idiom, and analogy means, however that hasn't made it any easier in my life to understand them in the real world, as they are commonly used; that required years of real life experience, and I'm still not very good at it.
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14 Mar 2012, 5:32 pm
@aghogday: I couldn't really understand the specifics of what you wrote about non-verbal communication and reading between the lines, but it seems that you are describing the non-verbal processing problems associated with NVLD. Can you describe what it is like not to be able to read non-verbal cues and between the lines for yourself?
14 Mar 2012, 5:46 pm
aghogday, for me between-the-lines communication in realtime requires shared motives. I'm good at nonverbal communication and slick with figures of speech, but I don't share the same motives with most NTs so communication can be difficult. I can always work out what people meant later when I work out their motives. It's the only information I lack in realtime. Example from when I was working in a shop: I was making a cup of tea in the kitchen and the manager came in and asked me to go on the till because another guy had failed to turn up. She repeated the bit about wanting him to go on the till but him not showing up, though to me it seemed redundant. Then I asked if she wanted a coffee and she declined with a slightly odd reaction. I realised later that she thought my often going on the till was a power play (rather than a comfort choice) and she wanted 'her guy' to replace me to usurp the power she thought I was getting, and my offering coffee stung her as she intended an attack. When I saw things from her NT perspective, the between-the-lines stuff made perfect sense, though it had no connection to reality as I knew it.
Surely you're familiar with this type of thing, where you work out what someone meant later? How could you do that with missing information?
Ganondox wrote:
Anyway, back to what I was trying to say.
So the main thing I really want to bring up is feral children. See, feral children often appear very similar to those with severe autism. Now, some theorize that this may be because only autistic children could survive on their own like that, but that's not the arguement I want to use. Rather, they loose the ability to socialize and learn socially do to social isolation. My first point is thar autism's severity is both influenced by neurological factors, and social factors. The more severe the combines social disconnection is in early childhood, the more severely it will manifest later on in life, even if the social environment is changed. Part of this assumes that people will connect better with people with similar neurologies, just as people connect better with people of similar cultures. The other point of the hypothesis is more of this: if everyone is broken, no one is. Disability is relative to the conditions that the majority of the population have; if most people had the same savant skill, then those without it would be considered to be disabled. In a society where the general neurology and culture was more autistic, you would have to be more severely affected to be considered disabled. This second point is different from the first point. The first point is neuroplascity and early development, the second point is relative disabity. Is my hypothesis clear now?
So the main thing I really want to bring up is feral children. See, feral children often appear very similar to those with severe autism. Now, some theorize that this may be because only autistic children could survive on their own like that, but that's not the arguement I want to use. Rather, they loose the ability to socialize and learn socially do to social isolation. My first point is thar autism's severity is both influenced by neurological factors, and social factors. The more severe the combines social disconnection is in early childhood, the more severely it will manifest later on in life, even if the social environment is changed. Part of this assumes that people will connect better with people with similar neurologies, just as people connect better with people of similar cultures. The other point of the hypothesis is more of this: if everyone is broken, no one is. Disability is relative to the conditions that the majority of the population have; if most people had the same savant skill, then those without it would be considered to be disabled. In a society where the general neurology and culture was more autistic, you would have to be more severely affected to be considered disabled. This second point is different from the first point. The first point is neuroplascity and early development, the second point is relative disabity. Is my hypothesis clear now?
I pretty much agree with this, though I would consider the first part speculative.
