Calling Aspergers autism? why?
btbnnyr
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15 May 2012, 12:23 pm
To me, there is no fundamental difference between a child who is severely autistic, low-functioning, non-verbal, uncommunicative, socially aloof, and rigid-thinking, and an adult who is Asperger-like, high-functioning, communicative, socially awkward, and cognitively flexible. Both are me, and it was a learning process to go from one to the other.
As an eggsample of what I was like as a child and what I am like as an adult, consider what would have happened if I had gone to the library to find that the library had changed its layout. As a child, I would have freaked out either because eberrything looked different or because I could not find the books that I wanted in the places that I looked. As an adult, I would not have freaked out, because I would have re-mapped the library in a minute or two, and I would have had an idear of where to look for the books that I wanted. Thinking in pictures and obsessing over maps would have helped me re-map the library quickly and easily, so it would have been the development of my autistic cognition through my special interests that would have allowed me to be flexible and function well in this situation as an adult and not as a child.
My NT mother always freaks out a little eberrytime one of her favorite stores changes its layout, but I can re-map the store even faster than I can re-map the library, because I am eggstremely driven to locate what she wants to buy as quickly as possible, so I can leave the store as quickly as possible.
I do not have ADHD, and I do not see a lot of similarities between myself with ASD only and a person with ADHD only. I have not read in the scientific literature that ADHD was on the autism spectrum, and there were always measurable distinctions between people with ADHD and people with ASD in research studies. This is not the case in most research studies comparing AS and autism. It is only on WP that I have read that ADHD is on the autism spectrum.
Last edited by btbnnyr on 15 May 2012, 1:17 pm, edited 4 times in total.
15 May 2012, 12:48 pm
Well, I have some (annectodal) evidence that ADHD is near ASD. My best friend has a son with Asperger's. Also one with ADHD. He himself has NVLD or maybe PDD-NOS. Not only related, but a genetic component here???
Thoughts? (But let us not stray too far from the OP's question).
Sincerely,
Matthew
15 May 2012, 2:45 pm
btbnnyr wrote:
To me, there is no fundamental difference between a child who is severely autistic, low-functioning, non-verbal, uncommunicative, socially aloof, and rigid-thinking, and an adult who is Asperger-like, high-functioning, communicative, socially awkward, and cognitively flexible. Both are me, and it was a learning process to go from one to the other.
You've just described some pretty fundamental differences...
I work in a specialized school for children with classic Autism on Mondays, and in a general school with children who have AS on Wednesdays and Fridays. To me, the differences even at that age (8-10 yo.) are night and day. And that's to say nothing of the much sharper development curve and higher ceilings for adulthood.
Meanwhile, the differences compared to ADHD are more subtle - ie. Calling out tends to be less contextual; they are distracted in different ways; they have a wider variety of stims; etc... But both generally present with similar issues for the most part. The only major difference seems to be how they relate to their peers. (Which is also quite different in AS vs Autism.)
Sweetleaf
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15 May 2012, 2:53 pm
scubasteve wrote:
btbnnyr wrote:
To me, there is no fundamental difference between a child who is severely autistic, low-functioning, non-verbal, uncommunicative, socially aloof, and rigid-thinking, and an adult who is Asperger-like, high-functioning, communicative, socially awkward, and cognitively flexible. Both are me, and it was a learning process to go from one to the other.
You've just described some pretty fundamental differences...
I work in a specialized school for children with classic Autism on Mondays, and in a general school with children who have AS on Wednesdays and Fridays. To me, the differences even at that age (8-10 yo.) are night and day. And that's to say nothing of the much sharper development curve and higher ceilings for adulthood.
Meanwhile, the differences compared to ADHD are more subtle - ie. Calling out tends to be less contextual; they are distracted in different ways; they have a wider variety of stims; etc... But both generally present with similar issues for the most part. The only major difference seems to be how they relate to their peers. (Which is also quite different in AS vs Autism.)
What is the difference between how people with autism and AS relate to their peers? hmm I might have to do a poll now depending on the answer to this.
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15 May 2012, 3:14 pm
Sweetleaf wrote:
What is the difference between how people with autism and AS relate to their peers? hmm I might have to do a poll now depending on the answer to this.
Well, obviously there tend to be differences in language and social abilities affecting interactions, although this can be explained by differences in intellectual functioning...
Aside from that, I've noticed that children with AS do seem to have a desire for social interaction and friendships, though they may not pursue that desire due to fear of peer rejection, or a history of peer rejection.
In contrast, most children with classic Autism don't seem to have any desire to communicate with their peers whatsoever. They often try to communicate with us (by non-verbal means if necessary), but this is generally to express a feeling or desire, or to gain attention. Interaction itself does not seem to be a motivation.
For example: We had a new student come in to my Wednesday class. He had his own issues, and was also somewhat of an outcast among his peers. The boy with AS in that class began sitting next to him, trying to form a friendship with him. (It was a bit awkward, but you could see he was trying.) Now, with children with classic Autism, at best I've seen no reaction. (Some of them even seemed to become jealous of any attention given to the new student, increasing their own attention-seeking behaviors in response.)
Sweetleaf
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15 May 2012, 3:23 pm
scubasteve wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
What is the difference between how people with autism and AS relate to their peers? hmm I might have to do a poll now depending on the answer to this.
Well, the main thing I've noticed is that children with AS do seem to have a desire for social interaction and friendships, though they may not pursue that desire due to fear of peer rejection, or a history of peer rejection.
In contrast, most children with classic Autism don't seem to have any desire to communicate with their peers whatsoever. They often try to communicate (by non-verbal means if necessary), but this is generally to express a feeling or desire. The interaction itself does not seem to be a motivation.
For example: We had a new student come in to my Wednesday class. He had his own issues, and was also somewhat of an outcast among his peers. The boy with AS in that class began sitting next to him, trying to form a friendship with him. (It was a bit awkward, but you could see he was trying.) Now, with children with classic Autism, at best I've seen no reaction. (Some of them even seemed to become jealous of any attention given to the new student, increasing their own attention-seeking behaviors in response.)
Well I wonder if everyone with classic autism would all agree they don't have any desire at all to communicate with their peers....likewise I think I've seen a few with Aspergers mention that they don't have any real desire for social interaction. I personally don't fit neatly into either of those as I do want social interaction(with a few people I'm close to...or people that are intresting to talk about) but regardless of any fears I still have a lot of trouble socializing.......for instance I don't make eye contact or have difficulties coming up and talking to someone because I am afraid of rejection I think the issues I already had caused a lot of my rejections so now that just ads to it. But the initial lack of interaction I experienced as a kid had nothing to do with fear. But yeah apparently a lot of times I 'ignored' people but it was more I didn't notice them talking to me, didn't know how to respond or thought the interaction was over and maybe walked away too early. So I don't know if it's so clear cut
Also maybe if they are treated like their behavior is simply attention seeking but that they don't have any real thought process...and only express things if they want something.......they might have never gotten much opportunity to develop any better communication skills.
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15 May 2012, 3:27 pm
That's a good point, and I don't mean to suggest that everyone follows this pattern. Certainly there are an enormous amount of individual differences within both groups. I'm generalizing. Also, you make a good point that someone who does desire interaction may avoid it due to a lack of confidence in their social skills, and not necessarily out of fear. But aside from that, it does seem likely that the majority in each group would fit this description.
As for the attention seeking thing... It's true that a lot of what we'd usually consider "acting out" can be a way of communicating for these students, and as such we have to be careful not to jump to conclusions. But there are some students who deliberately try to take advantage of this and demand attention FAR more frequently than they could possibly have something to communicate. (Which reminds me of another major difference - Low-functioning students with classic Autism actually tend to be better manipulators than higher-functioning students with AS.)
In any case, after spending a few days with a child with autism, it's usually not too difficult to identify which behaviors are for attention and which are attempts to communicate.
15 May 2012, 4:42 pm
Callista wrote:
The thing is, despite having pretty typical Aspie traits (as an adult--as a youngster I had more autie traits), I have more in common with the people they call "LFA" than you might expect on first glance.
I'm just not capable of forming social connections. I just... don't. I like people or don't like them, but I can leave them without missing them. I can stay alone indefinitely without feeling lonely, even though I do feel stir-crazy if I don't leave the apartment. I zone out and ignore the world. I'm unaware of what many people around me think of me. If I get stressed enough, I forget the people around me altogether. I stare at shiny things, flap my hands, rock, flick my fingers.
You wouldn't think that someone with those traits is also a highly verbal gifted college student, but I am. A lot of the stereotypes that come with "Asperger's" don't apply to me. I care a great deal about others' well-being; I'm not anxious in social situations; I'm creative. I'm a visual/conceptual thinker, not word-focused. I don't lash out at others unless someone tries to restrain me during a meltdown.
That's not unusual. Most Aspies don't fit the Aspie stereotype exactly. The trouble is that people often assume we do, because we fit just enough on first glance that that assumption isn't immediately invalidated.
I've been diagnosed Aspie, autistic, and PDD-NOS. Asperger's is the most common judgment, but I don't agree with it. PDD-NOS is really the only valid diagnosis for my case, just like for most of the Spectrum.
When I say "autistic" rather than "Aspie", that is a more general statement. Because I don't fit the stereotype of someone who's a completely unresponsive savant calculating people's birthdates, saying "autistic" forces people to see me as an individual with an individual set of autistic traits.
I'm just not capable of forming social connections. I just... don't. I like people or don't like them, but I can leave them without missing them. I can stay alone indefinitely without feeling lonely, even though I do feel stir-crazy if I don't leave the apartment. I zone out and ignore the world. I'm unaware of what many people around me think of me. If I get stressed enough, I forget the people around me altogether. I stare at shiny things, flap my hands, rock, flick my fingers.
You wouldn't think that someone with those traits is also a highly verbal gifted college student, but I am. A lot of the stereotypes that come with "Asperger's" don't apply to me. I care a great deal about others' well-being; I'm not anxious in social situations; I'm creative. I'm a visual/conceptual thinker, not word-focused. I don't lash out at others unless someone tries to restrain me during a meltdown.
That's not unusual. Most Aspies don't fit the Aspie stereotype exactly. The trouble is that people often assume we do, because we fit just enough on first glance that that assumption isn't immediately invalidated.
I've been diagnosed Aspie, autistic, and PDD-NOS. Asperger's is the most common judgment, but I don't agree with it. PDD-NOS is really the only valid diagnosis for my case, just like for most of the Spectrum.
When I say "autistic" rather than "Aspie", that is a more general statement. Because I don't fit the stereotype of someone who's a completely unresponsive savant calculating people's birthdates, saying "autistic" forces people to see me as an individual with an individual set of autistic traits.
did someone copy paste me without me knowing? evil twin! imposter =D
in all seriousness though this sounds so incredibly like myself as well... even down to the psych degree :p
btbnnyr
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15 May 2012, 4:45 pm
scubasteve wrote:
btbnnyr wrote:
To me, there is no fundamental difference between a child who is severely autistic, low-functioning, non-verbal, uncommunicative, socially aloof, and rigid-thinking, and an adult who is Asperger-like, high-functioning, communicative, socially awkward, and cognitively flexible. Both are me, and it was a learning process to go from one to the other.
You've just described some pretty fundamental differences...
I work in a specialized school for children with classic Autism on Mondays, and in a general school with children who have AS on Wednesdays and Fridays. To me, the differences even at that age (8-10 yo.) are night and day. And that's to say nothing of the much sharper development curve and higher ceilings for adulthood.
Meanwhile, the differences compared to ADHD are more subtle - ie. Calling out tends to be less contextual; they are distracted in different ways; they have a wider variety of stims; etc... But both generally present with similar issues for the most part. The only major difference seems to be how they relate to their peers. (Which is also quite different in AS vs Autism.)
The fundamental differences of night and day that you described to distinguish autism and AS belonged to the same person, and that person is me. I learned to speak and communicate in the 8-10 age range, and I appeared at age eight eggstremely different than I appeared at age ten, but I was still the same child, and I am still the same person. That was why I said that there is no fundamental difference to me, but that learning, eggspecially of speech and communication, made a big difference in my development.
Last edited by btbnnyr on 15 May 2012, 4:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Sweetleaf
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15 May 2012, 4:46 pm
scubasteve wrote:
That's a good point, and I don't mean to suggest that everyone follows this pattern. Certainly there are an enormous amount of individual differences within both groups. I'm generalizing. Also, you make a good point that someone who does desire interaction may avoid it due to a lack of confidence in their social skills, and not necessarily out of fear. But aside from that, it does seem likely that the majority in each group would fit this description.
As for the attention seeking thing... It's true that a lot of what we'd usually consider "acting out" can be a way of communicating for these students, and as such we have to be careful not to jump to conclusions. But there are some students who deliberately try to take advantage of this and demand attention FAR more frequently than they could possibly have something to communicate. (Which reminds me of another major difference - Low-functioning students with classic Autism actually tend to be better manipulators than higher-functioning students with AS.)
In any case, after spending a few days with a child with autism, it's usually not too difficult to identify which behaviors are for attention and which are attempts to communicate.
As for the attention seeking thing... It's true that a lot of what we'd usually consider "acting out" can be a way of communicating for these students, and as such we have to be careful not to jump to conclusions. But there are some students who deliberately try to take advantage of this and demand attention FAR more frequently than they could possibly have something to communicate. (Which reminds me of another major difference - Low-functioning students with classic Autism actually tend to be better manipulators than higher-functioning students with AS.)
In any case, after spending a few days with a child with autism, it's usually not too difficult to identify which behaviors are for attention and which are attempts to communicate.
So wait your saying a child with severe autism....is actually deliberately trying to take advantage? Also how do you know how often they could possibly have something to communicate. I had a lot of people assume I was just doing things for attention as a kid but most of the time that was not the case.........If I was attention seeking I knew it and I certainly did it a few times but a lot of times just due to my issues with communicating normally that caused people to assume I was doing it for attention or taking advantage.
Honestly I even still get that sometimes.
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btbnnyr
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15 May 2012, 5:05 pm
Perhaps the children with moar severe autism "act out" moar, because they have moar severe sensory issues or moar severe fixations or moar severe frustrations due to their moar severe difficulties in communication caused by their moar severe autism. There are many possible eggsplanations that do not involve 8-10 year old autistic children being manipulative. It is easy for teachers to misinterpret the behaviors of autistic children to assign them motives that they do not have. It is hard for teachers to put themselves into the shoes of the children.
Sweetleaf
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15 May 2012, 5:10 pm
btbnnyr wrote:
Perhaps the children with moar severe autism "act out" moar, because they have moar severe sensory issues or moar severe fixations or moar severe frustrations due to their moar severe difficulties in communication caused by their moar severe autism. There are many possible eggsplanations that do not involve 8-10 year old autistic children being manipulative. It is easy for teachers to misinterpret the behaviors of autistic children to assign them motives that they do not have. It is hard for teachers to put themselves into the shoes of the children.
Yeah...I wasn't even diagnosed with anything as a kid and it seemed teachers a lot of times did assume motives I honestly probably wouldn't have even understood. That might explain why I found it very confusing when they called me out for supposed behavior and my supposed motives behind it........and it was usually the motives I couldn't even understand. But of course my inability to explain or even comprehend enough to form a response was taken as proof I must have had some sort of terrible intention.
Though I don't know that I am in the more severe catagory you're referring to.
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15 May 2012, 5:15 pm
Sweetleaf wrote:
scubasteve wrote:
That's a good point, and I don't mean to suggest that everyone follows this pattern. Certainly there are an enormous amount of individual differences within both groups. I'm generalizing. Also, you make a good point that someone who does desire interaction may avoid it due to a lack of confidence in their social skills, and not necessarily out of fear. But aside from that, it does seem likely that the majority in each group would fit this description.
As for the attention seeking thing... It's true that a lot of what we'd usually consider "acting out" can be a way of communicating for these students, and as such we have to be careful not to jump to conclusions. But there are some students who deliberately try to take advantage of this and demand attention FAR more frequently than they could possibly have something to communicate. (Which reminds me of another major difference - Low-functioning students with classic Autism actually tend to be better manipulators than higher-functioning students with AS.)
In any case, after spending a few days with a child with autism, it's usually not too difficult to identify which behaviors are for attention and which are attempts to communicate.
As for the attention seeking thing... It's true that a lot of what we'd usually consider "acting out" can be a way of communicating for these students, and as such we have to be careful not to jump to conclusions. But there are some students who deliberately try to take advantage of this and demand attention FAR more frequently than they could possibly have something to communicate. (Which reminds me of another major difference - Low-functioning students with classic Autism actually tend to be better manipulators than higher-functioning students with AS.)
In any case, after spending a few days with a child with autism, it's usually not too difficult to identify which behaviors are for attention and which are attempts to communicate.
So wait your saying a child with severe autism....is actually deliberately trying to take advantage? Also how do you know how often they could possibly have something to communicate. I had a lot of people assume I was just doing things for attention as a kid but most of the time that was not the case.........If I was attention seeking I knew it and I certainly did it a few times but a lot of times just due to my issues with communicating normally that caused people to assume I was doing it for attention or taking advantage.
Honestly I even still get that sometimes.
Not all... But yes, there absolutely are children with classic Autism who are very good at taking advantage of people and situations to get what they want. And this is something I've never encountered with individuals with AS. (Not to say that they can't, but it seems far more rare...)
As to the attention issue... The teachers at this school document every notable behavior the students exhibit, every time it happens, what the circumstances were and what it entailed. There is meticulous research involved and I don't mean to suggest that they are making snap judgements on this. Attention-seeking behaviors simply can be identified sooner through these methods than many other types of behaviors. Most importantly though, please understand that I am not suggesting everyone with classic Autism does this, or that people with AS are any less likely to. (This was not one of the areas I listed as a difference between the two.)
btbnnyr
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15 May 2012, 5:18 pm
Sweetleaf wrote:
btbnnyr wrote:
Perhaps the children with moar severe autism "act out" moar, because they have moar severe sensory issues or moar severe fixations or moar severe frustrations due to their moar severe difficulties in communication caused by their moar severe autism. There are many possible eggsplanations that do not involve 8-10 year old autistic children being manipulative. It is easy for teachers to misinterpret the behaviors of autistic children to assign them motives that they do not have. It is hard for teachers to put themselves into the shoes of the children.
Yeah...I wasn't even diagnosed with anything as a kid and it seemed teachers a lot of times did assume motives I honestly probably wouldn't have even understood. That might explain why I found it very confusing when they called me out for supposed behavior and my supposed motives behind it........and it was usually the motives I couldn't even understand. But of course my inability to explain or even comprehend enough to form a response was taken as proof I must have had some sort of terrible intention.
Though I don't know that I am in the more severe catagory you're referring to.
It does not even matter what category anyone is in. I am sure that most of us have been grossly misinterpreted by teachers and parents during our childhoods.
One of my teachers hated me and complained about me to my mother, because I did not respond to her when she spoke to me. She thought that I was ignoring her on purpose, because I thought that I was bester than her and did not deign to respond to her. The truth was that I was autistic, and I did not know that I was supposed to respond when people spoke to me, and the idear of responding did not occur to me. Also, I did not know how to speak to eggsplain this truth to her or anyone else, ooops.
Hmmm, now that I think about it, the gross misinterpretations of teachers are like a moar advanced and equally absurd type of facilitated communication, no fingers or keyboards required.
Last edited by btbnnyr on 15 May 2012, 5:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Sweetleaf
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15 May 2012, 5:23 pm
scubasteve wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
scubasteve wrote:
That's a good point, and I don't mean to suggest that everyone follows this pattern. Certainly there are an enormous amount of individual differences within both groups. I'm generalizing. Also, you make a good point that someone who does desire interaction may avoid it due to a lack of confidence in their social skills, and not necessarily out of fear. But aside from that, it does seem likely that the majority in each group would fit this description.
As for the attention seeking thing... It's true that a lot of what we'd usually consider "acting out" can be a way of communicating for these students, and as such we have to be careful not to jump to conclusions. But there are some students who deliberately try to take advantage of this and demand attention FAR more frequently than they could possibly have something to communicate. (Which reminds me of another major difference - Low-functioning students with classic Autism actually tend to be better manipulators than higher-functioning students with AS.)
In any case, after spending a few days with a child with autism, it's usually not too difficult to identify which behaviors are for attention and which are attempts to communicate.
As for the attention seeking thing... It's true that a lot of what we'd usually consider "acting out" can be a way of communicating for these students, and as such we have to be careful not to jump to conclusions. But there are some students who deliberately try to take advantage of this and demand attention FAR more frequently than they could possibly have something to communicate. (Which reminds me of another major difference - Low-functioning students with classic Autism actually tend to be better manipulators than higher-functioning students with AS.)
In any case, after spending a few days with a child with autism, it's usually not too difficult to identify which behaviors are for attention and which are attempts to communicate.
So wait your saying a child with severe autism....is actually deliberately trying to take advantage? Also how do you know how often they could possibly have something to communicate. I had a lot of people assume I was just doing things for attention as a kid but most of the time that was not the case.........If I was attention seeking I knew it and I certainly did it a few times but a lot of times just due to my issues with communicating normally that caused people to assume I was doing it for attention or taking advantage.
Honestly I even still get that sometimes.
Not all... But yes, there absolutely are children with classic Autism who are very good at taking advantage of people and situations to get what they want. And this is something I've never encountered with individuals with AS. (Not to say that they can't, but it seems far more rare...)
:? , considering autism is a disorder that interferes with ones ability to interact with others......it does not make sense to me that kids with severe classic autism would be very good at taking advantage of situations and people to get what they want. Sounds more like that ignorant sterotype that people with autism don't have emotions and are typically out to manipulate...even though that fits psychopathy a bit better. I mean I'm not even a severe case of classic autism and even I couldn't succeed at manipulating people
As to the attention issue... The teachers at this school document every notable behavior the students exhibit, every time it happens, what the circumstances were and what it entailed. There is meticulous research involved and I don't mean to suggest that they are making snap judgements on this. Attention-seeking behaviors simply can be identified sooner through these methods than many other types of behaviors. Most importantly though, please understand that I am not suggesting everyone with classic Autism does this, or that people with AS are any less likely to. (This was not one of the areas I listed as a difference between the two.)
well I certainly hope this research is quite in depth...because the worse thing to do to someone with difficulties in communication is alienate them further by attributing 'bad' intentions to their behavior brought on by symptoms.
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15 May 2012, 5:28 pm
btbnnyr wrote:
Perhaps the children with moar severe autism "act out" moar, because they have moar severe sensory issues or moar severe fixations or moar severe frustrations due to their moar severe difficulties in communication caused by their moar severe autism. There are many possible eggsplanations that do not involve 8-10 year old autistic children being manipulative. It is easy for teachers to misinterpret the behaviors of autistic children to assign them motives that they do not have. It is hard for teachers to put themselves into the shoes of the children.
Maybe it would be best if I gave an example... The teacher gives a boy a reward when he finishes his work. The boy has learned that he will get the reward when he has finished the work. He completes the work, then raises his hand and requests the reward. (Or points to a picture of it if he is non-verbal.)
Now, if the teacher leaves the room and leaves someone unfamiliar in charge, most of the time that child will not complete the assignment. He will pretend to have completed it, and request the reward, knowing that this other person is not familiar with the teacher's expectations.
That is the sort of behavior I mean, and it's certainly typical for NT children as well... But it does not seem to be typical of Aspies.
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