Dr. Thomas Szasz
Well I guess it's all hypothesis at the moment even if some evidence hints at physical process. I'm sure we all envision a future where we are able to identify the physical changes and characteristics of mental disorders so that you either have it or you don't.
Until that happens diagnostic criteria will remain largely ambiguous. It seems the brain is largely a mystery and I believe in relation to other sciences we have not advanced enough or at a fast enough pace. It's frustrating the one organ that defines our existence is still considered an enigma.
Dreycrux wrote:
Well I guess it's all hypothesis at the moment even if some evidence hints at physical process. I'm sure we all envision a future where we are able to identify the physical changes and characteristics of mental disorders so that you either have it or you don't.
Until that happens diagnostic criteria will remain largely ambiguous. It seems the brain is largely a mystery and I believe in relation to other sciences we have not advanced enough or at a fast enough pace. It's frustrating the one organ that defines our existence is still considered an enigma.
Until that happens diagnostic criteria will remain largely ambiguous. It seems the brain is largely a mystery and I believe in relation to other sciences we have not advanced enough or at a fast enough pace. It's frustrating the one organ that defines our existence is still considered an enigma.
The way to overcome any OCD is to just go with the feelings of anxiety/fear - they reach a peak then die down and you realise
the world didn't end
nessa238 wrote:
Dreycrux wrote:
Well I guess it's all hypothesis at the moment even if some evidence hints at physical process. I'm sure we all envision a future where we are able to identify the physical changes and characteristics of mental disorders so that you either have it or you don't.
Until that happens diagnostic criteria will remain largely ambiguous. It seems the brain is largely a mystery and I believe in relation to other sciences we have not advanced enough or at a fast enough pace. It's frustrating the one organ that defines our existence is still considered an enigma.
Until that happens diagnostic criteria will remain largely ambiguous. It seems the brain is largely a mystery and I believe in relation to other sciences we have not advanced enough or at a fast enough pace. It's frustrating the one organ that defines our existence is still considered an enigma.
The way to overcome any OCD is to just go with the feelings of anxiety/fear - they reach a peak then die down and you realise
the world didn't end
OCD can very often easily be treated with meds. It's also highly genetic and linked to Tourette.
My grandma is 94 years and still has OCD.
So, in theory a lot of things are "easy" to overcome and if it just would be stress it propably wouldn't have lasted an entire lifetime that constantly.
But I think, like a lot of disorders in psychiatry the reasons can differ.
I my opinion I developed Bipolar disorder/depression because of the stress in my life. I didn't have Bipolar/depression while growing up. I first developed it in puberty.
But Szasz is right, nowadays every behaviour that is outside of the norm is consideret a disorder and there are way too many so called "disorders" out there.
_________________
"I'm astounded by people who want to 'know' the universe when it's hard enough to find your way around Chinatown." - Woody Allen
Last edited by Raziel on 05 Feb 2013, 5:08 am, edited 2 times in total.
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nessa238 wrote:
Dreycrux wrote:
nessa238 wrote:
Dreycrux wrote:
nessa238 wrote:
He's saying that rather than keep creating new diagnoses for every permutation of human behaviour, it's far better to find out what it is specifically that is troubling that individual person and resolve that, instead of labelling them with a psychiatric diagnosis
A lot of these diagnoses are just pathologising the human condition
So you saying my OCD is just due to some underlying "trouble" and I can simply resolve that?
OCD is a form of anxiety displacement
ie something specific is causing your anxiety but rather than face it you displace this anxiety/fear into the OCD activity,
which gives you a feeling of control
Usually the more checking/hand washing etc that goes on, the more anxious the person is about something
Hmm i'm not sure where you were going with that but ocd It is said to have a physical component. And then there is the dopamine hypothesis for schizophrenia...Again I am not sure if your against mental disorders having a physical component or not. You seem to be... which I find bewildering.
Quote:
OCD has been linked to abnormalities with the neurotransmitter serotonin, although it could be either a cause or an effect of these abnormalities. Serotonin is thought to have a role in regulating anxiety. To send chemical messages from one neuron to another, serotonin must bind to the receptor sites located on the neighboring nerve cell. It is hypothesized that the serotonin receptors of OCD sufferers may be relatively understimulated. This suggestion is consistent with the observation that many OCD patients benefit from the use of selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs), a class of antidepressant medications that allow for more serotonin to be readily available to other nerve cells.[32]
A possible genetic mutation may contribute to OCD. A mutation has been found in the human serotonin transporter gene, hSERT, in unrelated families with OCD.[33] Moreover, data from identical twins supports the existence of a "heritable factor for neurotic anxiety".[34] Further, individuals with OCD are more likely to have first-degree family members exhibiting the same disorders than do matched controls. In cases where OCD develops during childhood, there is a much stronger familial link in the disorder than cases in which OCD develops later in adulthood. In general, genetic factors account for 45-65% of OCD symptoms in children diagnosed with the disorder.[35] Environmental factors also play a role in how these anxiety symptoms are expressed; various studies on this topic are in progress and the presence of a genetic link is not yet definitely established.
People with OCD evince increased grey matter volumes in bilateral lenticular nuclei, extending to the caudate nuclei, while decreased grey matter volumes in bilateral dorsal medial frontal/anterior cingulate gyri.[36][37] These findings contrast with those in people with other anxiety disorders, who evince decreased (rather than increased) grey matter volumes in bilateral lenticular / caudate nuclei, while also decreased grey matter volumes in bilateral dorsal medial frontal/anterior cingulate gyri.[37] Orbitofrontal cortex overactivity is attenuated in patients who have successfully responded to SSRI medication, a result believed to be caused by increased stimulation of serotonin receptors 5-HT2A and 5-HT2C.[38] The striatum, linked to planning and the initiation of appropriate actions, has also been implicated; mice genetically engineered with a striatal abnormality exhibit OCD-like behavior, grooming themselves three times as frequently as ordinary mice.[39] Recent evidence supports the possibility of a heritable predisposition for neurological development favoring OCD.[40]
Rapid onset of OCD in children and adolescents may be caused by a syndrome connected to Group A streptococcal infections (PANDAS)[41][42] or caused by immunologic reactions to other pathogens (PANS).[43]
A possible genetic mutation may contribute to OCD. A mutation has been found in the human serotonin transporter gene, hSERT, in unrelated families with OCD.[33] Moreover, data from identical twins supports the existence of a "heritable factor for neurotic anxiety".[34] Further, individuals with OCD are more likely to have first-degree family members exhibiting the same disorders than do matched controls. In cases where OCD develops during childhood, there is a much stronger familial link in the disorder than cases in which OCD develops later in adulthood. In general, genetic factors account for 45-65% of OCD symptoms in children diagnosed with the disorder.[35] Environmental factors also play a role in how these anxiety symptoms are expressed; various studies on this topic are in progress and the presence of a genetic link is not yet definitely established.
People with OCD evince increased grey matter volumes in bilateral lenticular nuclei, extending to the caudate nuclei, while decreased grey matter volumes in bilateral dorsal medial frontal/anterior cingulate gyri.[36][37] These findings contrast with those in people with other anxiety disorders, who evince decreased (rather than increased) grey matter volumes in bilateral lenticular / caudate nuclei, while also decreased grey matter volumes in bilateral dorsal medial frontal/anterior cingulate gyri.[37] Orbitofrontal cortex overactivity is attenuated in patients who have successfully responded to SSRI medication, a result believed to be caused by increased stimulation of serotonin receptors 5-HT2A and 5-HT2C.[38] The striatum, linked to planning and the initiation of appropriate actions, has also been implicated; mice genetically engineered with a striatal abnormality exhibit OCD-like behavior, grooming themselves three times as frequently as ordinary mice.[39] Recent evidence supports the possibility of a heritable predisposition for neurological development favoring OCD.[40]
Rapid onset of OCD in children and adolescents may be caused by a syndrome connected to Group A streptococcal infections (PANDAS)[41][42] or caused by immunologic reactions to other pathogens (PANS).[43]
- Wikipedia
Let me explain OCD like this...This is how I explain it to everyone. OCD is like a fire that you keep batting the flames down, but the fire (anxiety) never fully goes out and it can rage up at anytime (triggers) where you have to beat back the flames. The underlying problem of anxiety and rumination is still there, you can get over some things with exposure and response therapy but then underlying ocd just spread to other topics over your life time. It's a never ending fight against the spreading flames. SSRI's are almost like a fireplace to contain the fire so it doesn't spread...it's still there and you would have to feed it with triggers to get it going as it will just be hot coals ready to ignite at any time. It is a physical disorder in function.
People probably have a genetic disposition to OCD but I think it's mainly environmental things that trigger it, such as interpersonal relationships and how much stress a person suffers from other things on a daily basis, like work etc
I know people say the OCD in AS is different to ordinary OCD, but my daughter (awaiting assessment for AS) has shown OCD behaviours since the age of 4. She has them really bad now at age 11.
_________________
*Truth fears no trial*
DX AS & both daughters on the autistic spectrum
nessa238 wrote:
A lot of these diagnoses are just pathologising the human condition
Exactly! And when you have a diagnosis these days, what it means is that you have a shrinker that you see for 15 minutes every few weeks, and you are on some sort of medication. There is NO cure. But we can manage it... together.
_________________
Everything is falling.
nessa238 wrote:
Dreycrux wrote:
Well I guess it's all hypothesis at the moment even if some evidence hints at physical process. I'm sure we all envision a future where we are able to identify the physical changes and characteristics of mental disorders so that you either have it or you don't.
Until that happens diagnostic criteria will remain largely ambiguous. It seems the brain is largely a mystery and I believe in relation to other sciences we have not advanced enough or at a fast enough pace. It's frustrating the one organ that defines our existence is still considered an enigma.
Until that happens diagnostic criteria will remain largely ambiguous. It seems the brain is largely a mystery and I believe in relation to other sciences we have not advanced enough or at a fast enough pace. It's frustrating the one organ that defines our existence is still considered an enigma.
The way to overcome any OCD is to just go with the feelings of anxiety/fear - they reach a peak then die down and you realise
the world didn't end
Any OCD? there is only one OCD and that's obsessive compulsive disorder. I think your thinking of the people who throw around the term "Oh i am just having a little bit of OCD today" no...these people do not have OCD and are completely using the term improperly, it's an insult to the people who actually suffer from the disorder. Sure regular people can have anxiety that triggers a compulsion just like regular people can have hallucinations and delusions...It is when these things are chronic and severe is when it is a disorder. OCD consumes my being and is even the theme of many of my dreams. I showed ocd tendencies when I was young and in my early adult life it became full blown.
I am assuming you do not have ocd or do not know the horrors of having it. I don't want to be like this, it's not a habit or a character flaw or something I can think my way out of. no, no, no. if that was the case then it wouldn't be labeled as a chronic condition in literature, and the therapy would not just be exposure and response. It is separate part of me and mentally exhausting trying to control it. Medication has helped encapsulate the anxiety, but it is still there, in the background driving a lot of my thoughts towards compulsions.
tall-p wrote:
nessa238 wrote:
A lot of these diagnoses are just pathologising the human condition
Exactly! And when you have a diagnosis these days, what it means is that you have a shrinker that you see for 15 minutes every few weeks, and you are on some sort of medication. There is NO cure. But we can manage it... together.
Yes, that's also a good point and also one Szasz makes.
Nowadays everything is called a disorder and that's behavioural control and mind control.
When I rebell for example living in an unhealthy environment, why should it be a disorder?
And why should be even a second disorder if I "denial" it having one in the first place?
My experience especially with psychiatries is, if I don`t talk to them it`s because of a disorder, if I complain, it`s because of a disorder and even if I cooperate it`s because of a disorder. Suddenly EVERYTHING I do is because of a disorder and I'm no human being anymore, no I'm a disorder.
And a shrink once explained to me that I need therapy because I had therapy in the past!
Despite the fact if I need therapy or not, that's not am argument at all.
And seriously 300 disorders is way too many. So many are even don't get dx in most cases.
Szasz also makes the example of drapetomania. Drapetomania was considered a mental disorder in the past and ment that the slaves run away.
If I would run away from a mental hospital where they lock me up or even if I just wasn't willing to take the meds they are giving me, they would keep me even longer, because then I would have "proven" that I need to stay.
So, there is nothing I can do against that system and psychiatries have the ultimate power.
And Szasz is right when he says that this system is violating the freedom, because you even have the right to be "crazy" if you want to stay that way and also to decide over your life. Shrinks shouldn't be able to force ppl into so called "therapy" and I personally don't believe in the benefits of a forced(!) therapy.
_________________
"I'm astounded by people who want to 'know' the universe when it's hard enough to find your way around Chinatown." - Woody Allen
Raziel wrote:
And seriously 300 disorders is way too many. So many are even don't get dx in most cases.
And that is what psychiatry is all about now. And many of the people here are way into getting a "real" diagnosis. It is a defining moment in their lives. So it is the same for all people who get a diagnosis... lots of time and money spent on it. And then when the diagnosis comes in it has consequences, drugs, and a schedule of appointments. Insurance, and perhaps assistance.
Szasz mentions "hysteria." My x wife had that diagnosis in 1971. She had appointments and meds. Forty-two years later she still has appointments and meds. Her diagnosis has changed.
Raziel wrote:
And Szasz is right when he says that this system is violating the freedom, because you even have the right to be "crazy" if you want to stay that way and also to decide over your life. Shrinks shouldn't be able to force ppl into so called "therapy" and I personally don't believe in the benefits of a forced(!) therapy.
This gun thing could end up putting all these "helping professionals" on the spot. I think the NRA would be much happier if all psychiatrists and psychologists have to give up the names of all their "patients" that have certain diagnoses than if they have to register their weapons. Remember when Adam Lanza (the killer from Newtown) was fingered for having Asperger's?
_________________
Everything is falling.
Last edited by tall-p on 05 Feb 2013, 4:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
Raziel wrote:
Dillogic wrote:
Dr. Strawman
What do you mean?
He is using a variety of strawman arguments to denounce a whole scientific field.
Modern medicine is a fad because of bloodletting! Modern medicine is a fad because of {insert thousands of other medical errors here to use as an example for why medicine is wrong}.
Dillogic wrote:
Raziel wrote:
Dillogic wrote:
Dr. Strawman
What do you mean?
He is using a variety of strawman arguments to denounce a whole scientific field.
Modern medicine is a fad because of bloodletting! Modern medicine is a fad because of {insert thousands of other medical errors here to use as an example for why medicine is wrong}.
I am happy someone insightful has finally posted.
Thank you.
Raziel wrote:
tall-p wrote:
nessa238 wrote:
A lot of these diagnoses are just pathologising the human condition
Exactly! And when you have a diagnosis these days, what it means is that you have a shrinker that you see for 15 minutes every few weeks, and you are on some sort of medication. There is NO cure. But we can manage it... together.
Yes, that's also a good point and also one Szasz makes.
Nowadays everything is called a disorder and that's behavioural control and mind control.
When I rebell for example living in an unhealthy environment, why should it be a disorder?
And why should be even a second disorder if I "denial" it having one in the first place?
My experience especially with psychiatries is, if I don`t talk to them it`s because of a disorder, if I complain, it`s because of a disorder and even if I cooperate it`s because of a disorder. Suddenly EVERYTHING I do is because of a disorder and I'm no human being anymore, no I'm a disorder.
And a shrink once explained to me that I need therapy because I had therapy in the past!
Despite the fact if I need therapy or not, that's not am argument at all.
And seriously 300 disorders is way too many. So many are even don't get dx in most cases.
Szasz also makes the example of drapetomania. Drapetomania was considered a mental disorder in the past and ment that the slaves run away.
If I would run away from a mental hospital where they lock me up or even if I just wasn't willing to take the meds they are giving me, they would keep me even longer, because then I would have "proven" that I need to stay.
So, there is nothing I can do against that system and psychiatries have the ultimate power.
And Szasz is right when he says that this system is violating the freedom, because you even have the right to be "crazy" if you want to stay that way and also to decide over your life. Shrinks shouldn't be able to force ppl into so called "therapy" and I personally don't believe in the benefits of a forced(!) therapy.
Yes he hit the nail on the head as far as it being all about control
Too many people have an investment in either being mentally ill themselves or in needing people to be ill so they can treat them, for example drug companies and all the people who train to be psychiatrists and therapists
The mental health industry thrives on keeping people unwell basically
It's all about keeping non-conformers in their place
These are radical ideas so most people tend to reject them. That does not negate the truth of them though, you just need to accept that you will always be up against a wall of denial as people prefer to maintain the status quo than question and change it.
Dillogic wrote:
Raziel wrote:
Dillogic wrote:
Dr. Strawman
What do you mean?
He is using a variety of strawman arguments to denounce a whole scientific field.
Modern medicine is a fad because of bloodletting! Modern medicine is a fad because of {insert thousands of other medical errors here to use as an example for why medicine is wrong}.
Where does he say that?
I think you are paraphrasing him and missing the essential points he makes
You are entitled to your own opinion but it's not a good idea to trash the opinions of other people - it makes you seem
arrogant and unpleasant
Dreycrux wrote:
Dillogic wrote:
Raziel wrote:
Dillogic wrote:
Dr. Strawman
What do you mean?
He is using a variety of strawman arguments to denounce a whole scientific field.
Modern medicine is a fad because of bloodletting! Modern medicine is a fad because of {insert thousands of other medical errors here to use as an example for why medicine is wrong}.
I am happy someone insightful has finally posted.
Thank you.
There's been a lot of insight on this thread and the above comment is just rude in my opinion
I've noticed that the less open minded a person is, the more likely they will resort to insults to make their point, which
always betrays a weak argument
Make your point by all means but try and do it without putting others down
He is talking about the mental health industry, not medicine
I fear an NT-style slanging match is about to occur - I'm glad to be going out