In what way do you feel this planet is the wrong planet?

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Dragoness
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22 Feb 2013, 11:18 am

Redstar2613 wrote:
Yuugiri wrote:
Zodai wrote:
While I'm not entirely sure about forcing everyone into it as opposed to choice (You were somewhat vague on that subject) it would certainly solve the population crisis a great deal ;P

It wouldn't be forcing them, lol. It's just how I wish humans were. I think it's pointless to set arbitrary limits for yourself based on gender, at least when it comes to love.

Of course, I only feel this way because I am this way (barring my unfortunate social prejudices), so that's a factor.


That is the only factor.
I hate it when people act like everyone has a choice! I'm straight myself but I don't think anyone would choose to grow up in a gay/bi hating house hold, or go to a school where they get bullied and beaten up all the time, just for being gay or bi.
No one sets arbitrary limits for themselves, because the gender we are attracted to is not a choice, just as it isn't a choice to have Asperger's. It's a part of who we are.
Saying what you have just makes it harder for the other gay and bisexual people, because some straight people already think it is a choice and you're just backing up their incorrect theory.
My sister is a lesbian. She didn't choose to be, she just is. She did have boyfriends growing up but clearly realized that males don't interest her in the same way that females do. She didn't think to herself "I'm sick of men, I'm going to get myself a girlfriend"


Agreed. You don't choose your sexuality. You're born with it. You might not realize you are a certain sexuality, and realize you are that sexuality later, but that doesn't mean you chose to be that sexuality. For example, I'm a bi. I didn't realize I was a bi at first, partly because I had no concept of bisexuality for a long time, but then I realized I was a bi. I didn't choose to be a bi. I just happen to be one.



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22 Feb 2013, 11:40 am

Dragoness wrote:
Lintar wrote:
qawer wrote:
In the neurotypical world life is in the end all about survival and competition. Acting truly un-selfish is a sign of mental illness. Not caring about other people for their own sake, but only caring about yourself, is a sign of mental health. It is good to care about others, but only if it is to your own benefit. True altruism is punished.

Kindness will be punished in the neurotypical world. You should think of yourself and act as if you were the most important creature that ever existed. The more stone-cold of a heart, the more rewarding the neurotypical world is.


No, I cannot agree, this is a gross oversimplification. Heroic and selfless deeds are admired and rewarded. Think of the examples of the firefighters who lose their lives in service to the communities they are a part of, or the soldiers who put their lives on the line in order to help their fellow-soldiers.
Then there are the volunteers, like those in the Salvation Army, who volunteer to give much of their time to serve others who are destitute, and for which the only reward is the difference they make to someone's life. What about those who willingly donate one of their kidneys to someone they care about?


I agree.


I also agree, but I think qawer is speaking from his personal experience of Neurotypicals, and their social customs. Yes, it is oversimplification of the situation, but try to remember that some Autistics have only had a purely negative experience of the Neurotypical world, and that they are posting only the evidence they have gathered over their lives.



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22 Feb 2013, 11:41 am

Kuribo wrote:
Dragoness wrote:
Lintar wrote:
qawer wrote:
In the neurotypical world life is in the end all about survival and competition. Acting truly un-selfish is a sign of mental illness. Not caring about other people for their own sake, but only caring about yourself, is a sign of mental health. It is good to care about others, but only if it is to your own benefit. True altruism is punished.

Kindness will be punished in the neurotypical world. You should think of yourself and act as if you were the most important creature that ever existed. The more stone-cold of a heart, the more rewarding the neurotypical world is.


No, I cannot agree, this is a gross oversimplification. Heroic and selfless deeds are admired and rewarded. Think of the examples of the firefighters who lose their lives in service to the communities they are a part of, or the soldiers who put their lives on the line in order to help their fellow-soldiers.
Then there are the volunteers, like those in the Salvation Army, who volunteer to give much of their time to serve others who are destitute, and for which the only reward is the difference they make to someone's life. What about those who willingly donate one of their kidneys to someone they care about?


I agree.


I also agree, but I think qawer is speaking from his personal experience of Neurotypicals, and their social customs. Yes, it is oversimplification of the situation, but try to remember that some Autistics have only had a purely negative experience of the Neurotypical world, and that they are posting only the evidence they have gathered over their lives.


You have a good point, and I agree with you.



Caz72
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22 Feb 2013, 12:52 pm

i think it is the wrong planet because everyone is very self-centered or just prefer people similar to them or they dont want to know you. i get a lot of this at work. i am not always on the same wavelength of other people this is why i don't have any friends but i don't care. the way i see it, theyre all weird. :)



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22 Feb 2013, 7:10 pm

This planets far too cold for me, its ridiculous how cold it is, and to think when it looked like it might be getting warmer, they made out it was a bad thing???

Bring back global warming!

Before I believed in God, I figured, there couldn't possibly be a God, because if there was a God, he wouldn't have made such a horrible cold place for us to live in, but that's before I heard about the pre-flood water canopy.



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22 Feb 2013, 10:07 pm

qawer wrote:
Okay, here is the complete answer to what I think is wrong with this planet/the universe in general.

First, let us summarize the MEANING OF LIFE (I believe that everyone who says there is a deeper meaning than this is only believing that because of their ego - it is a reaction we have because we want a deeper purpose with our lives in order to gain motivation. Besides, we are afraid of the naked fact of the matter.)

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THE MEANING OF LIFE AND THE SECRET OF HAPPINESS
FROM AN EVOLUTIONARY AND CYBERNETIC PERSPECTIVE
SUMMARY


The purpose of the animate beings is survival/existence therefore the successful individual beings of the species have to be selected. In the case of the most intelligent animate beings, the human beings, the selection is performed partly by the environment and partly by the species when the unconscious minds of the individual beings evaluate the successfulness of each other and themselves. The unconscious minds of the individuals endeavor to increase the probability of survival of the successful individuals and to decrease the probability of survival of the unsuccessful individuals, therefore they give energy (happiness) to successful individuals and take away energy from unsuccessful individuals (depression). Cooperation increases the success of the human individual beings, therefore groups of cooperating successful individuals have to be selected as well. If the evaluations made by the unconscious minds of the successful individuals are positively distorted (positive thinking) and the evaluations made by the unconscious minds of the unsuccessful individuals are negatively distorted (negative thinking) then the energy of the group increases and decreases in proportion of the successful and unsuccessful individuals (heaven and hell).

BEINGS
The essence of the universe (system) is existence. Its laws (algorithms) create the beings and their behavior.

The beings are either animate or inanimate. Animate (intelligent) beings react autonomously to the environment as opposed to inanimate beings which react only to external impacts. Animate beings accumulate energy to be able to react autonomously. Animate beings react dynamically, that is they constantly change and develop their reactions as opposed to inanimate beings whose reactions are static. Animation (intelligence) increases the probability of survival of the being.

The result of an intelligent reaction can be success or failure. An intelligent reaction can be successful uniquely or repetitively (program).

SPECIES AND IMMORTALITY
Species (animate being) are composed of several individual beings (specimens), so that a single inappropriate reaction to the environment does not result in the termination of the animate being (diversification). That is the actual animate being is the species itself and not the individual beings it is composed of. The species, like inanimate beings, is theoretically immortal. The degree of diversification is inversely proportional to the intelligence of the species, that is the more intelligent is the species, the less diversified it is. Theoretically, a perfectly intelligent species would be composed of one immortal being.

The animate being proliferates in order to diversify. In the course of proliferation the being mutates which increases the probability of survival of the individual beings newly generated. The efficiency of mutation increases if the new individuals (descendents) are generated sexually by the recombination of the codes of two successful individuals and not asexually by mutating the codes of one individual.

NEW SPECIES
If successful individuals are not recombined permanently with unsuccessful individuals a new species evolves. However, successful individuals are also able to create different species if they are isolated from each other and therefore cannot be recombined [3].

NATURAL SELECTION
The natural selection of the successful individuals is performed partly by the environment [2] (external selection) and partly by the species itself (internal selection).

In the course of external natural selection those individual beings of the species whose reactions are unsuccessful are terminated by the environment and as a result the successful individuals are selected for survival/existence.

In the course of internal natural selection the individual beings of the species select the successful individuals by subjectively evaluating their successfulness. The species allocates the energy to the internally selected successful individuals. The internal selection increases the efficiency of the selection and as a result the probability of survival of the species.

The probability of survival of the individuals of the species further increases if they cooperate, therefore they form groups. Within the groups the proportion of the successful and unsuccessful individuals varies. If the subjective evaluations of the successful individuals are positively distorted and the subjective evaluations of the unsuccessful individuals are negatively distorted then the energy of the group increases and decreases in proportion of the successful and unsuccessful individuals. As a result, the energy is allocated to the group of individuals which have a higher probability of survival (internal group selection).

AGING AND NATURAL DEATH
In order to terminate the recombined individuals (parents) their energy is decreased internally by the species. As a result, the environmental (external) energy is allocated to the newly generated, more successful individuals (descendents) [5,7], which have a higher probability of survival because they are the parents’ recombined mutations.

COLLECTIVE UNCONSCIOUS
The most intelligent beings known to date, the human beings, are composed of body (hardware) and the algorithms that operate the body (software). The brain (hardware) and the thoughts (programs) stored in the brain collect information about the environment and calculate the optimal reaction. The environment positively (success) and negatively (failure) impacts the brain and the thoughts. The information about the environment and the perception of the environmental impact constitute together the consciousness.

Parents transmit their recombined hardware and software code to the descendant. The hardware codes are transmitted via the parents’ genetic codes in the course of reproduction [6]. The software codes are transmitted via the parents’ genetic codes [6] and in addition via the parents’ mental codes in the course of upbringing. The self-evaluations of the parents’ are part of their mental codes.

The mind (brain and thoughts) has a programming and an operating part. The role of the programming (“conscious”) mind is to react uniquely and to create new programs in order to adapt to the changing environment. The operating (“unconscious”) mind uses the genetically transmitted programs (e.g., instincts, emotions), the programs transmitted in the course of upbringing (mental code), the programs created directly by the environmental impact and the programs created by the programming mind.

The operating minds of the individual beings have an individual and a collective part. The individual operating mind maximizes the energy/success (external and internal) of the individual being. The collective operating minds of the individual beings operate collectively and maximize the energy/success of the species by allocating the energy internally to the individual beings and groups of individuals with the highest probability of survival.

By evaluating the subjective success the collective operating minds can increase and decrease the energy level and the probability of survival of the individual beings and the groups of individuals. In addition, the collective operating minds are able to select and recombine the successful individuals more efficiently than the random combination of the externally selected existing, and therefore successful, individuals.

SUCCESS
Success can be objective (external energy) when the environment positively impacts the individual (e.g., adequate temperature, oxygen, nutrition), or the individual reacts successfully to the negative environmental impact (e.g., fight or flight).

Success can be subjective (internal energy) when the collective operating minds evaluate the successfulness of the reactions of the evaluated individual compared to his or her previous reactions and compared to the reactions of the other individuals. The collective operating minds also evaluate if the reactions of the evaluated individual increases or decreases the success of the other individuals. The members of a group of individuals evaluate the successfulness of the reactions of their group compared to the other groups of individuals.

COOPERATION AND COMPETITION
Individuals compete against each other to become successful, but they cooperate (group) as well if cooperation increases their successfulness. Individuals can cooperate to increase their objective and/or subjective success. Subjective success can compensate for the decrease of objective success and cooperation increases the objective success. The individual maximizes the sum of objective and subjective success and as subjective success increases both types of success the subjective success increases the cooperation of the individuals. Individuals endeavor to cooperate with successful individuals to increase the probability of their objective success. Successful individuals also increase the probability of the subjective success of the individual because their evaluations are positively distorted.

SELF-ESTEEM
The subjective success determines the self-evaluation (self-esteem) of the individual. Subjectively successful individuals have high self-evaluation subjectively unsuccessful individuals have low self-evaluation.

The collective operating mind of the subjectively unsuccessful individual modifies the behavior of the individual, his or her thinking becomes negatively distorted, that is, he or she focuses on factors which decrease the probability of success. Individuals with high self-evaluation think positively.

As a result, unsuccessful individuals with low self-evaluation distort negatively other individuals’ self-evaluation by focusing on their failures, whereas successful individuals with high self-evaluation distort positively other individuals’ self-evaluation. The individual distorts also his or her own self-evaluation when evaluating his or her own success or when perceiving other individuals’ evaluations.

Because of the positively and negatively distorted evaluations of the individuals, the individual members of the group increase and decrease each other’s self-evaluation in proportion of the successful and unsuccessful individuals.

FAMILY AND UPBRINGING
The development of the self-evaluation is influenced in the highest degree by the parents of the descendent [8]. Parents with low self-evaluation focus on the negative, unsuccessful traits of the descendent (hate), whereas parents with high self-evaluation focus on the positive traits (love). If the descendant receives mostly positive feedbacks than high self-evaluation (confidence/faith) is created. On the other hand if it receives mostly negative feedbacks than low self-evaluation (shame/guilt) is created. That is parents transmit their self-evaluations (psyche/soul) to the descendent.

HAPPINESS AND DEPRESSION
The collective operating minds of the individuals give energy (happiness) to the individuals with high self-evaluation and take away energy (sadness/depression) from the individuals with low self-evaluation. In the case of extreme unsuccessfulness, the collective operating mind of the individual can cause illnesses [1,4] or can terminate directly the existence of the individual being (suicide).

A typical manifestation of the energy allocating function of the collective operating mind is humor, which is a sudden energy impulse received by the individual when he or she instantly become aware of the unsuccessfulness of another individual.

Because of the positively (good) and negatively (evil) distorted evaluations (judgements) of the individuals, the energy of the group of individuals increases and decreases in proportion of the successful and unsuccessful individuals (heaven and hell).

MATING
Individuals with high energy level, high self-evaluation, successful hardware and software code become sexually attractive for the collective operating minds’ of the other individuals whereas unsuccessful individuals become sexually unattractive, that is the collective operating minds select and recombine the successful individuals.

DOMINANCE AND SUBORDINATION

The collective operating mind creates a hierarchy among the individuals based on the degree of successfulness by modifying the behavior. Individuals with lower degree of successfulness (subordination) surrender control to individuals with higher degree of successfulness (dominance) which increases the probability of survival of both the group and the more successful individuals.

BODY AND BEHAVIOR
The collective operating minds of the individuals store the successful and unsuccessful hardware (e.g., body shape, muscularity, etc.) and software (e.g., positive/negative thinking, confidence/shame, happiness/sadness, dominance/subordination, etc.) codes which codes originate from the traits of the successful and unsuccessful individuals.

The collective operating minds of the evaluating individuals use the successful and unsuccessful codes to forecast the probability of future success or failure of the evaluated individual. That is when the other individuals evaluate the success of the evaluated individual not only the actual, but also the probable success and failure is taken into account.

In addition, the collective operating minds of the evaluated individuals use the successful and unsuccessful software codes to improve (high self-evaluation) or deteriorate (low self-evaluation) the behavior of the evaluated individual in order to increase or decrease his or her probability of survival.

Because of the positively and negatively distorted evaluations of the individuals, the behavior of the groups of individuals improves and deteriorates in proportion of the successful and unsuccessful individuals.

VIRTUOUS AND VICIOUS CIRCLE AND THE PSYCHE (SOUL)
The collective operating minds of the evaluating other individuals meta-communicate the result of their evaluation to the collective operating mind of the evaluated individual. The self-evaluation of the evaluated individual is also meta-communicated to the collective operating minds of the evaluating other individuals.

When the other individuals evaluate the subjective success of the individual the self-evaluation is also taken into account and it has a major influence on the evaluated degree of successfulness. That is the evaluation influences the self-evaluation and the self-evaluation influences the evaluation in a self-reinforcing manner.

In addition, behavior is influenced by self-evaluation and the evaluation of behavior influences self-evaluation also in a self-reinforcing manner.

The self-evaluation or self-esteem can be considered as the psyche (soul) of the individual being as it is the main factor which influences the behavior of the individual.




It is very difficult to find individuals who have a problem with this basic purpose of life. It has really never occurred to most people that there should be a problem in the first place. I guess that is exactly what is "wrong" about having autism. In the survival game you do not have the natural innate understanding/accept of the meaning of life. It must be taught intellectually.


Well, I for one 'have a problem with this basic purpose of life'. Where shall I start?

First of all you are making too many basic assumptions and, from these mere assumptions, extrapolating 'facts' (ex. assumption 1 - 'I believe that everyone who says there is a deeper meaning than this is only believing that because of their ego'. Therefore it is because 'we want a deeper purpose with our lives in order to gain motivation. Besides, we are afraid of the naked fact of the matter'). Well, I don't agree with the underlying premise here, that life's only purpose is self-perpetuation, and it is not because of my 'ego'.

The title - 'The Meaning of Life and the Secret of Happiness' - has the underlying assumption built into it that there is ONLY one meaning, and one secret. I'm sure I'm correct when I say that, for each and every individual, 'the Secret of Happiness' will be different, depending on their specific circumstances.

'Cybernetic' perspective?! Contrary to what many believe today, we are not machines. Machines do not reproduce, they are not self-aware, sentient, can only do what we programme them to do, can be disassembled and reassembled at will and still work perfectly, they cannot create anything new unless we specifically use them - as a tool - to do such. I could go on and on here. The dissimilarities between lifeforms and machines are too numerous to list, so I fail to see how a 'cybernetic perspective' can offer anything of value to understanding who we are and why.

I've been going over this article, and it is (I have to be honest) completely over-the-top and ludicrous. Who wrote it? It contains so many baseless assumptions about the nature of humanity that, as a potential insight into it, it is completely worthless. I'm sorry for being so blunt, but it is really bad.



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22 Feb 2013, 10:27 pm

Dreycrux wrote:
A right planet to me that I would feel at home on would consist of the following qualities:

People would follow all rules, regulations. The world would be focused heavily on science and technology. There would be no movies or TV series or much fictional entertainment at all. Musical lyrics would be all about the wonders of the universe and existence and not about love or trivial interpersonal issues. People would rarely be violent towards each other or act on their emotions. People would only speak to each other when it is necessary and would not bother with small talk, unnecessary greetings, fake expressions or gestures. Just some of the things that would make me feel at home.


I'm not so sure about this. It all sounds a little bit too much like North Korea, lol. I don't like the system we now have on this planet at all, but it at least has one thing going for it; in most parts of the world people have the freedom to be whomever they want to be, and it looks like you would deprive them of history, fiction, television, culture, and the freedom to write songs about (whatever), and substitute bland conformity. No thanks.



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22 Feb 2013, 11:07 pm

Okay, I'll stop being negative (for once) and offer my vision for a better world.

First of all it would be a world where the differences that make each and every one of us unique would not be seen as being 'strange' or 'abnormal' if they could not be understood or categorised. Differences, in appearance, character and intelligence, would be seen for what they are examples of - healthy diversity - and the primitive tribalism that goes by the name of 'patriotism' would cease to be because there would be no more petty nation-states.

The absence of nation-states would instantly eliminate the 'need' for the waste of resources we call defence spending. The billions saved would go towards the solution of real problems, like crumbling infrastructure, and the only people who would be allowed to carry firearms would be the police. The 'second amendment' is an anachronism; it should be done away with.

Religious beliefs and practices would be purely personal, and there would be zero tolerance for the imposition of such beliefs on others. Religious bigotry (yes, that includes the intolerance shown by atheists such as Dennett and Dawkins towards believers) would not be tolerated either, and those who display it would be shown the errors of their ways by having the destructive consequences of their narrow-mindedness pointed out to them.

The use of torture by governments, the surveillance state, CCTV cameras, mobile-phone cameras, and the misapplication of the fruits of scientific research in general, would all be things of the past. The regional economies of the world would be geared along the lines of 'from each according to ability, to each according to need' (I'm quoting, not sure if the words are right, but the gist is). Money would be seen for what it truly is - a symbol of wealth, and nothing more. It would no longer command the respect that it now does.

Rap 'music' would no longer exist (it gives me headaches). Empty-headed celebrities, of the Paris Hilton variety, would be ignored by the press, the glorification of violence on TV and at the cinema would cease, and we would for once have quality shows (like documentaries) on television instead. The silly show 'Ancient Aliens' would disappear, all copies of it burned for promoting nonsense as fact, and the producers of it sent to jail for corrupting the minds of viewers. Shysters such as Deepak Chopra would be forced to give back the millions of dollars they conned their brainless followers into giving them, and then they would have to publicly renounce the pseudo-scientific nonsense they endorsed.

Politicians would not receive a salary, their work would be voluntary, thus weeding out the ambitious and selfish. Corporations would be transparent, their activities closely monitored by the state, and any that engaged in unethical behaviour (like endangering the public - ex. cigarettes) would be forcibly dissolved. Stock markets would disappear, as would all other forms of gambling.



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23 Feb 2013, 1:54 am

Caz72 wrote:
i think it is the wrong planet because everyone is very self-centered or just prefer people similar to them or they dont want to know you. i get a lot of this at work. i am not always on the same wavelength of other people this is why i don't have any friends but i don't care. the way i see it, theyre all weird. :)


Of course people prefer someone similar to them... it's only logical. No one wants to have a long conversation about something they have no interest in. So of course you'll try to surround yourself with people that will share similar interests. That's not being selfish, it's choosing to have a good time with someone, instead of being bored to death.

Nambo wrote:
This planets far too cold for me, its ridiculous how cold it is, and to think when it looked like it might be getting warmer, they made out it was a bad thing???

Bring back global warming!

Before I believed in God, I figured, there couldn't possibly be a God, because if there was a God, he wouldn't have made such a horrible cold place for us to live in, but that's before I heard about the pre-flood water canopy.


Where do you live? If it's too cold for you, then you clearly just need to move. I live in Australia and not that far from the equator. Summers have been known to reach 40 degrees celcius, that's really, really, really hot. Trust me, the planet is not "too cold". You just need to live somewhere else.
And you clearly have no idea what Global Warming actually is. Which is fine, except that when you talk about something and give your opinion on it, you really should have an actual understanding of what it is you're talking about, otherwise you just look.... foolish. Global Warming is not a good thing for the Planet and therefore, everything living on it.

Why would hearing about the supposed pre-flood water canopy make you believe in God? I just googled it and the first page that came up was a religious one, that says both The Bible and Science say it's false. Although trusting a religious site about Science, well... not something I'd normally do but I can't be bothered looking up a reliable source right now.



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23 Feb 2013, 2:14 am

i always felt that i wasnt suppose to be in the city or town or school, in a sense, i guess i always dreamed of moving to mars and feeling more at home there



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23 Feb 2013, 8:17 am

Lintar wrote:
qawer wrote:
In the neurotypical world life is in the end all about survival and competition. Acting truly un-selfish is a sign of mental illness. Not caring about other people for their own sake, but only caring about yourself, is a sign of mental health. It is good to care about others, but only if it is to your own benefit. True altruism is punished.

Kindness will be punished in the neurotypical world. You should think of yourself and act as if you were the most important creature that ever existed. The more stone-cold of a heart, the more rewarding the neurotypical world is.


No, I cannot agree, this is a gross oversimplification. Heroic and selfless deeds are admired and rewarded. Think of the examples of the firefighters who lose their lives in service to the communities they are a part of, or the soldiers who put their lives on the line in order to help their fellow-soldiers.


But wouldn't you say they are punished by nature? Maybe people admire their heoric deeds, but in the end, who gets to live on and enjoy life? Not the firefighters who lose their lives in service to the communities they are a part of, or the soldiers who put their lives on the line in order to help their fellow-soldiers....according to nature's laws it simply is kidding yourself...I respect and admire them so much. All I am saying is that life/this world is unfair, and that's what's wrong with it. Maybe they are admired, but they pay the highest price possible!



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23 Feb 2013, 8:33 am

Redstar2613 wrote:
Caz72 wrote:
i think it is the wrong planet because everyone is very self-centered or just prefer people similar to them or they dont want to know you. i get a lot of this at work. i am not always on the same wavelength of other people this is why i don't have any friends but i don't care. the way i see it, theyre all weird. :)


Of course people prefer someone similar to them... it's only logical. No one wants to have a long conversation about something they have no interest in. So of course you'll try to surround yourself with people that will share similar interests. That's not being selfish, it's choosing to have a good time with someone, instead of being bored to death.


Yes, it is logical because that's how nature is. It is being "selfish" in a broad sense to surround yourself with people similar to yourself. It only seems logical because nature states that one should act selfish to become happy. It is not logical in the same way as 1+1=2. It is only logical on the basis of the knowledge that you should be selfish in order to become happy.

If nature stated that you should be as helpful as possible in order to become happy, you should prefer people that needed your help the most. That's not how nature is! If you feel a need to help someone, nature states that it is only a rational feelingif the act of helping that person in the end does help yourself in some way or another - perhaps just by feeling better about yourself.

Without acting "selfish in a broad sense" you cannot be at proper mental health in this world. That's what's wrong.



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23 Feb 2013, 8:41 am

You're talking about true altruism, which it is in dispute about whether it exists

All interactions are transactions - I give you something and get something back in return, even if it's just feeling happier from having attention off another person

A certain amount of self-interest is healthy in my opinion, otherwise you'd end up giving everything you had away and end up homeless

Read this about George Price:-

http://www.darwinwars.com/wdhessay.html

"The deathbed of an altruist can be a terrible place: "A mattress on the floor, one chair, a table, and several ammunition boxes made the only furniture. Of all the books and furnishings that I remembered from our first meeting in his fairly luxurious flat near Oxford Circus there remained some cheap clothes, a two-volume copy of Proust, and his typewriter. A cheap suitcase and some cardboard boxes contained most of his papers, others were scattered about on ammunition chests."

These were the effects of George Price, an American science journalist. He had perfected an existing mathematical equation that shows how altruism can prosper among basically selfish animals - even humans. So shocked was he by his success in this, and the darker truths about human nature implied by the equation, that he embarked on a desperate career of service to the outcast, and finally killed himself with a pair of nail scissors in a London squat in January 1975."

A fascinating man but his life shows that if you try and take altruism to the ultimate extreme it won't have a happy ending



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23 Feb 2013, 8:59 am

Hi Lintar, welcome to the thread!

Lintar wrote:
First of all you are making too many basic assumptions and, from these mere assumptions, extrapolating 'facts' (ex. assumption 1 - 'I believe that everyone who says there is a deeper meaning than this is only believing that because of their ego'. Therefore it is because 'we want a deeper purpose with our lives in order to gain motivation. Besides, we are afraid of the naked fact of the matter'). Well, I don't agree with the underlying premise here, that life's only purpose is self-perpetuation, and it is not because of my 'ego'.


I'm curious how you could so easily rule that out? Your ego will do anything in order for you to survive. That including making yourself believe that you have a higher purpose than self-perpetuation. Think about it, do you do anything in your daily life that is not directly or indirectly related to your own self-perpetuation? Remember that self-actualization is also just a human need eventually aimed at self-perpetuation.




Lintar wrote:
The title - 'The Meaning of Life and the Secret of Happiness' - has the underlying assumption built into it that there is ONLY one meaning, and one secret. I'm sure I'm correct when I say that, for each and every individual, 'the Secret of Happiness' will be different, depending on their specific circumstances.


It is correct that for each and every individual, 'the Secret of Happiness' will be different, depending on their specific circumstances. That's because people are different. But behind those different "secrets of happiness" only remains self-perpetuation. We build our own purposes in life in order to survive, because we have a way greater probability of survival if we believe our lives truly have a larger purpose. But I agree with you in the sense that it's a hell of a great illusion ! I've begun to just accept it - that's only another survival technique :wink:



Lintar wrote:
'Cybernetic' perspective?! Contrary to what many believe today, we are not machines. Machines do not reproduce, they are not self-aware, sentient, can only do what we programme them to do, can be disassembled and reassembled at will and still work perfectly, they cannot create anything new unless we specifically use them - as a tool - to do such. I could go on and on here. The dissimilarities between lifeforms and machines are too numerous to list, so I fail to see how a 'cybernetic perspective' can offer anything of value to understanding who we are and why.



I interpret "Cybernetic' perspective" as just looking at life objectively without the interference of humans' subjective look on what their purposes are.


Lintar wrote:
I've been going over this article, and it is (I have to be honest) completely over-the-top and ludicrous. Who wrote it? It contains so many baseless assumptions about the nature of humanity that, as a potential insight into it, it is completely worthless. I'm sorry for being so blunt, but it is really bad.


Here it is,

http://taxwar.net/the-meaning-of-life-a ... SjGh6KN6uI



qawer
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23 Feb 2013, 9:07 am

nessa238 wrote:
You're talking about true altruism, which it is in dispute about whether it exists

....

A fascinating man but his life shows that if you try and take altruism to the ultimate extreme it won't have a happy ending


I'd just like that life also rewarded true altruism :thumright:



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23 Feb 2013, 9:11 am

nessa238 wrote:
A certain amount of self-interest is healthy in my opinion, otherwise you'd end up giving everything you had away and end up homeless


Exactly! I'd say that nature teaches us that self-interest in the end is the only thing that is healthy. That is the fact I find sad.



Last edited by qawer on 23 Feb 2013, 9:25 am, edited 2 times in total.