Neanderthal theory has been updated

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beneficii
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08 Jun 2013, 11:45 am

rdos wrote:

They are assessing LFA (they claim about half of them are mentally disabled). That is as far from neurodiversity we can get, and thus has no relevance for neurodiversity at all

Huh?

rdos
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08 Jun 2013, 12:02 pm

beneficii wrote:

rdos wrote:

And self-awareness is a requirement in order to get an accurate diagnoses as well, because the diagnostic process also mostly relies on this.

Really? So the kid who is diagnosed at 3 is self-aware of being different? When I was diagnosed with PDD-NOS, an ASD, at age 6, I had no farkin' clue. I thought I was just ADHD. (Though I was aware of being diagnosed with Asperger's at age 13.)

I only deal with adults. This is the context the claim should be seen in.

beneficii wrote:

As for the rest of your post, I have trouble seeing how it's even relevant to what I'm talking about. I don't know what you mean by ASD verses neurodiversity. As I understand, neurotypical simply means not ASD. Neurodiversity simply means inclusion regardless of ASD status. Non-verbal autistic people fit into neurodiversity and under the ASD label. They are just a much a part of our group as we are. I don't see your basis for splitting apart ASD people.

Since we are discussing the Neanderthal theory, not child ASD diagnoses, I think I'm the one defining the concepts. Neurodiverse is not a synonym for ASD, but the first factor of factor analysis of human diversity. Similarily, neurotypical is not undiagnosed ASD, but the second factor. ASD only enter the theory because the highest correlation with (my) neurodiversity definition is with the AQ test (which should measure ASD/BAP).

IOW, that ASD has a large causative component in Neanderthal heritage is an empirical finding, and not part of the definition. Thus claims about mentally disabled children with ASD diagnoses are not relevant.

rdos
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08 Jun 2013, 12:10 pm

naturalplastic wrote:

Pure doubletalk

"its not autism that matters, its BAP that matters" is tantamount to saying its not autism that matters it autism that matters.

It is impossible to use ASD diagnoses to get anywhere with ASD research. The Neanderthal theory doesn't deal with DSM diagnosis, it deals with human diversity. Some people have perverted the neurodiversity (and Aspie) terms to be a synonym to DSM ASD diagnoses, but that is not the context they are used in the Neanderthal theory.

beneficii
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08 Jun 2013, 12:13 pm

rdos wrote:

beneficii wrote:

rdos wrote:

And self-awareness is a requirement in order to get an accurate diagnoses as well, because the diagnostic process also mostly relies on this.

I only deal with adults. This is the context the claim should be seen in.

beneficii wrote:

So even though I am an adult, I am excluded from consideration because I was diagnosed with an ASD as a child?

You apparently have your own definition of neurodiversity, which I honestly don't find that interesting. I only caution you to not ignore cultural factors, however. Many race-based theories regarding how people think have been found to be based on racism and to be untenable. There are many factors, such as cultural factors, implicit racial biases causing people to have certain beliefs about themselves, etc., that must be taken into account, and your theory will fail to gain much traction if you do not do your due diligence on that, and rightfully so.

rdos
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08 Jun 2013, 2:27 pm

beneficii wrote:

So even though I am an adult, I am excluded from consideration because I was diagnosed with an ASD as a child?

No, as an adult you have a pretty good idea that you are different because of what you went through as a child. As a 3 year old child you have no idea.

beneficii wrote:

You apparently have your own definition of neurodiversity, which I honestly don't find that interesting.

It's not interesting from a diagnostic perspective, but it is from a causative perspective because it singles out personality / neurodiversity from environment and mental retardation.

beneficii wrote:

I only caution you to not ignore cultural factors, however. Many race-based theories regarding how people think have been found to be based on racism and to be untenable. There are many factors, such as cultural factors, implicit racial biases causing people to have certain beliefs about themselves, etc., that must be taken into account, and your theory will fail to gain much traction if you do not do your due diligence on that, and rightfully so.

FYI, the definition of neurodiversity started with a list of 100 questions from ASD-related tests. Then every trait that could be part of human diversity was tested, and resulted in a test for neurodiversity. Of course, no racially biased traits were involved in the evolution of the test. Environment / culture was selected out by looking at correlation to environmental problems (depression, being bullied an alike) and not accepting traits with high correlations to such traits.

beneficii
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08 Jun 2013, 3:14 pm

rdos wrote:

beneficii wrote:

So even though I am an adult, I am excluded from consideration because I was diagnosed with an ASD as a child?

No, as an adult you have a pretty good idea that you are different because of what you went through as a child. As a 3 year old child you have no idea.

beneficii wrote:

You apparently have your own definition of neurodiversity, which I honestly don't find that interesting.

It's not interesting from a diagnostic perspective, but it is from a causative perspective because it singles out personality / neurodiversity from environment and mental retardation.

beneficii wrote:

Again, you go off in directions where I can't even follow you. I thought you were talking about participation rate, not scores on the test.

rdos
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08 Jun 2013, 3:16 pm

beneficii wrote:

Again, you go off in directions where I can't even follow you. I thought you were talking about participation rate, not scores on the test.

The participation rates were measured when the test was in the stable phase.

naturalplastic
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09 Jun 2013, 2:45 pm

rdos wrote:

naturalplastic wrote:

Pure doubletalk

"its not autism that matters, its BAP that matters" is tantamount to saying its not autism that matters it autism that matters.

So...

we cant use neurodiversity research to do neurodiversity research because people have perverted neurodiversity research into thinking that it is synonymous with neurodiversity research.

Have I got it right?

rdos
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09 Jun 2013, 3:21 pm

naturalplastic wrote:

No.

Verdandi
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09 Jun 2013, 3:40 pm

rdos wrote:

1. They are assessing LFA (they claim about half of them are mentally disabled). That is as far from neurodiversity we can get, and thus has no relevance for neurodiversity at all

This by itself appears to undercut everything you have to say about autism and neurodiversity.

paxfilosoof
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09 Jun 2013, 3:43 pm

It's always so funny how people rant so much on the neanderthaler theory, when in fact, other theories of autism have much more problems in predictions.
We'll see in the future if it turns out to be correct, we need some autistic researchers for proposing such theories in peer-reviewed journals and maybe we'll have eventually evidence for neanderthaler theory. The theory exist for like 12 years now, and still not disproved.

I'm really curious for peer-reviewed research in this theory. I really hope someday someone is going to test it, and if this is not the case, I'll test it and try to become a researcher in the fields needed. Other theories of autism (intense world theory not) are in my opinion to simple and not all encompassing.

rdos
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09 Jun 2013, 3:59 pm

paxfilosoof wrote:

Currently, mentioning this possibility in peer-reviewed research will mean your article will be rejected.

Another problem has to do with how neurodiversity is partitioned onto a zillion different DSM labels, and mixed up with environmental problems. That's a framework that will never lead anywhere. That's another obstacle for publishing something. It's simply not possible to argue around DSM diagnoses and prove those are partially related to Neanderthal ancestry, because we have a heap of problems, and no positive traits, and such a thing could not be adaptive anywhere, not even in a different species.

That's why the first step is to publish a neurodiversity-test that can stand on it's own that contains traits with a possible evolutionary background. Once this is done, I think it will be possible to publish the neanderthal theory as well in some form.

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