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Fnord
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16 Jun 2013, 2:32 pm

Materialism is is the only verifiable truth.

All else is speculation and fantasy.



qawer
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16 Jun 2013, 2:43 pm

Fnord wrote:
Materialism is is the only verifiable truth.

All else is speculation and fantasy.


True, there could be something else, but we'll never know for sure.

Seems like I get a lot more "into" the world when I only accept a physical reality. Things get more obvious, less confusing.



Popsicle
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16 Jun 2013, 4:07 pm

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If souls do not exist, then there is no need for us to fear for their eternal fates, and all we need to concern ourselves with is material existence.


Oh, this turned into a soul/spirituality discussion. Okay! :)

In my opinion, even if souls did not exist (and I believe they do; more on that in a moment), there are still other things besides one's own comfort and survival. For some it would become even more important to make every moment count or to make every moment as nice for others as possible. To be kind, to make life meaningful. At least I've heard atheists say so, and I'd like to think and or hope I would behave that way. Others I guess would respond as Jeffrey Dahmer did once he decided there is no afterlife - he literally did whatever he wanted to, including horribly mistreat other people for his own thrill. Perhaps it's more about what is inside the person to begin with? I don't know.

About souls existing, I have always felt and believed so. The only 'scientific' evidence is that apparently a body weighs very slightly less after death than before. This is aside from any spontaneous evacuation of liquids (I've said that as discreetly as possible.) Some think that could be the soul leaving the body.

Anecdotally you have near death experience stories and not all can be explained by brain hallucinations or lack of oxygen - some people see and hear things happening in a different location than their physical body, etc. (According to them. I've spoken to one such and believed her. She was a straight talking person and not prone to stories.)

In my opinion even our accepted 'proofs' for common things are accepted by our own mind - how do we really know our own mind is accurate or trustworthy? That's a more esoteric than literal question and it's hard to explain what I mean but, if we are not perfect and don't know most things about the universe how can we know either way and that would include "there is no soul." Good science 'leaves the door open' to anything I think. I do understand it more when people point out how many religions or 'mythologies' there are. That's true. But to me, I have trouble thinking the entire universe popped into being on its own with no creative genius or guidance behind it of some type. Some would call that "God."

There are paranormal and spiritual experiences some people have had, including in groups, but, I can understand why some would say those are some type of hallucination or wishful thinking, or even electrical fields playing havoc with the senses. I personally think such things exist but, one must exercise caution and judgment in my belief as not all forces are 'good.'

Eh I am babbling a bit but, to me, things matter even more when there is no selfish reason for things to matter. For instance the people continuing to teach children inside a Jewish ghetto under Nazi oppression despite their knowing everyone in the ghetto could well die. That story inspires people to this day because they did not give up and wanted every moment to count, that they could make so. Does life become more precious when things get harder or less so? I think more so in some ways.

A possible up side to the world wide economic crisis might be that people will turn to one another for comfort and help when material things fail them or are no longer readily available.



Fnord
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16 Jun 2013, 10:45 pm

Regarding a person's "Soul":

1. What is its volume?

2. What is its density?

3. What is it made of?

4. What sustains it?

5. Where is it located?



AgentPalpatine
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16 Jun 2013, 10:47 pm

PPR guys....PPR.


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16 Jun 2013, 10:47 pm

Jamesy wrote:
Why does society view us people with AS as wrong and lesser?


Lack of education...



cubedemon6073
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17 Jun 2013, 7:36 am

Fnord wrote:
Regarding a person's "Soul":

1. What is its volume?

2. What is its density?

3. What is it made of?

4. What sustains it?

5. Where is it located?


The thing is though Fnord is you're committing a fallacy in logic called argument from ignorance. You are automatically making the assumption that just because one hasn't proven proposition A that proposition A is automatically false. This is not so. Just because the soul hasn't been proven does not mean it does not exist. We simply have insufficient evidence of the soul and insufficient evidence to answer your questions.

It is the same thing with God. Just because we have insufficient evidence does not mean God does not exist. Fnord, there are things in our universe, reality, and existence we don't understand at this time. A true skeptic is not only skeptical of other people's beliefs but his own as well. We used to have a dog who eventually died. When my dog took its last breath my parents saw this small mist come out of the dog's nostrils. What was this? What was this mist made of? How did it form? Honestly, I don't know. One has to factor that it may have been the dog's soul.

I do agree though that one has to start with the most simplest of explanations and obvious and proceed to the most complex of explanations. James Randi does a lot of good with exposing frauds and with the teaching of critical thinking and the promotion of critical thinking. The thing is though I do have an issue with him. The issue is some of his arguments are from ignorance. He assumes that just because one hasn't proven proposition A that proposition A is automatically false.

All James Randi has proven are these things.
a. There are people who claim to have psychic or supernatural powers are really frauds.
b. There are people who claim to have psychic or supernatural powers who deceive themselves or fool themselves.
c. People can fool themselves
d. People can fool others.

So far, no one has passed his challenge. It does not mean that psychic or supernatural phenomenon does not exist. All it means is it hasn't been proven yet and what he has proven is that people can fool others and themselves and there are frauds out there. Again, he does a lot of good by exposing frauds and promoting critical thinking. This is what the USA needs. Fnord, you have the same issue which causes you to be biased.

I do believe there is something outside of materialism and I do believe there is a soul. For me, it is based upon intuition. I simply have that gut feeling about it that I can't explain. I have no proof I can offer you. I may be fooling myself and if it turns out that I am then I am and I will self-correct. It has gotten me through may days of depression and despair. It has given me hope and something to fight for. It allows me to see that things can be better. To me, it brings a lot of color and gives a point to things. It gives something to strive for. To me, it gives a universal law that binds all human beings which was mentioned in the Nuremberg trials. This is what Socrates saw and he wanted betterment for his society. He died for it because he saw something that was beyond all societies and materialism. He saw something better and so do I.



elsing
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17 Jun 2013, 2:16 pm

On topic:

Because people get scared of what's different and what they don't understand.


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glider18
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17 Jun 2013, 8:13 pm

Jamesy wrote:
Why does society view us people with AS as wrong and lesser?


The people where I live do not view us that way. The comments I here about AS (region where I live) is "very intelligent" and "socially awkward"---but nothing bad, wrong, or lesser---and I do keep my ears open for such comments.


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Pepe
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17 Jun 2013, 9:29 pm

glider18 wrote:
Jamesy wrote:
Why does society view us people with AS as wrong and lesser?


The people where I live do not view us that way. The comments I here about AS (region where I live) is "very intelligent" and "socially awkward"---but nothing bad, wrong, or lesser---and I do keep my ears open for such comments.


NTs are on a spectrum of their own...
Some are enlightened...
Some are ignorant...
Some are meerkats... :wink:

Compared to 40 years ago, society is more enlightened in regards to autism...
But there is still a great need for further enlightenment.

I am glad you found a pocket of sanity...



The_Perfect_Storm
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18 Jun 2013, 1:40 am

People with asd are lesser.

Even if only a little bit.



Pepe
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18 Jun 2013, 3:11 am

The_Perfect_Storm wrote:
People with asd are lesser.

Even if only a little bit.


What is your context here?
You can't support your blanket statements, if it is a gross generalisation, imo...
You can, however, apply your comment to aspects of AS...
What are they?



The_Perfect_Storm
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18 Jun 2013, 4:24 am

Pepe wrote:
The_Perfect_Storm wrote:
People with asd are lesser.

Even if only a little bit.


What is your context here?
You can't support your blanket statements, if it is a gross generalisation, imo...
You can, however, apply your comment to aspects of AS...
What are they?


social difficulties



MusicalWonders
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18 Jun 2013, 5:21 pm

because of how many of us that act like it or think of ourselves as losers.



Pepe
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18 Jun 2013, 5:51 pm

MusicalWonders wrote:
because of how many of us that act like it or think of ourselves as losers.


Yeah, snap out of it guys... ;)

We aren't the real problem...
The problem is trying to fit into a toxic NT dominated universe...

My suggestion is for aspies to research autism first to comprehensively understand themselves...
And then, if you feel inclined, learn to emulate NT behaviour, though personally, at my age, I don't see why you would want to...

Remember...
We aren't wrong...
We are different... ;)



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19 Jun 2013, 5:02 am

"you are not wrong, you are just rare" Yuko Hoshida. He wrote a book called "how to be yourself in a world thats different".