Frustrated with NTs, need aspie opinion on ethical issue

Post Reply New Topic

Ok I need to adress this one first!

No no this is not "all it takes"

First off what about the disabled who can't and are unable to work do to our disabilities? Should we be poor? Should we go hungry? Should we be homeless or have to wonder if we can afford meds, medical equipment or hay to even wash our laundry?

Secondly minimum wage is not a living wage. With out a college degree you really can't get out of minimum wage jobs. How ever college is hard, and it's expensive and there is zero garenteed you will get a job after attending . So if you you risk going even further into debt and into poverty and even if you manage to get a job you are now thousands in debt you have to pay off!!

As for not having kids, here is the thing many poor don't have resources to help them there if they don't want kids! Birth control costs money, abortions cost money condo is cost money


Don't even say they shouldn't have had sex because many of these were and are teen moms, who frankly as a teenGer is biological incapable of actually grasping the long term affect of having sex or possible consequences!

Additionally some who are now poor didn't used to be until they lost thier jobs! So what they should never have had kids? Here is the thing

Anyone can suddenly become disable or poor at any point in thier like fe


Who are you to judge the lives and work ethic of these people? Of the poor? You don't know them! You don't know thier stories! Poverty in America is a trap you can't just work hard and climb out! How dare anyone shame people for being poor? For being less fortunate?

Many of these poor you see as having no work ethic work 2-3 jobs, they may have kids but they never see them children growing up with out parents. Some are being abused . Many can't afford the child care they need to even go to work some have become devastating ply poor after battling a medical condition like cancer or getting into an accident! Now they are poor they can't afford thier treatment or medicine don't get sick in America even with insurance it could send you in debt and into poverty!

Here is the thing don't judge the poor or people you don't know, what you see when you see them is a fraction of thier lives , you don't know them or thier story well enough to judge them

You won't like my answer to be honest, yes as much as I love my dogs and my cats, and while -I- would never eat dog or cat that I could think of, if the dogs are raised cared for and die pain free then while I might disagree with it I'm ok with people eatting dog. The issue for me is how it is cared for, treated and how it dies. You can kill animals pain free. I believed it is a core in kosher laws.

Here is the issue, you have your driven goal and you refuse to listen to reason.you want to turn everyone vegan and you have your mind set yours is the right way and the only way this isn't going to work. You need to recognize that others aren't you they have thoughts, feeling and even sensory an diet issues you don't


I can't cut meat out of my diet ever! I would literally starve and likely die. Me
Y sensory issues make most vegan foods a non option for me no matter how hungry I am!

I meant eventually. The current generation is screwed. But if the generation that is currently poor do not have children without financial well being, there will be very little poverty, something which social programs can easily handle.

The disabled get disability benefits. That is society?s responsibility not mine! That is why I pay taxes.

One can get by fine on minimum wage. In some places rent is $300/month. Food is 200. Another $100 for other stuff. So around $600 per month is needed to live a basic life. With minimum wage one can probably get 2 to 3 times that depending on where one lives.

Even if birth control is hard, people who cannot afford to feed children should not have children. They can abstain, have some other form of sex which does not produce offspring. Oral, anal? Hehehehe. The alternative is for poor people to have a child every year or so and then let them starve! Suppose we then work off our ass to feed their 20 children. They will still be poor and then when they grow up they will each have 20 children and we have magnified the problem 10 times with our own population dwindling, or remaining constant, or making modest gains. Among animals famine is a population control. As intelligent animals we can plan ahead and have artificial controls rather than famine. However if certain cultures do not embrace these artificial population controls then natural population controls are the only way. It is sad but that is nature. I think any human who does not think ahead and would create children that will starve is being immoral. If they are young they should be taught.

People who are poor should not have kids and if they do they are being immoral. Children deserve financial security. It cannot be guaranteed but when it is done with full knowledge that they do not have financial security the parents are being immoral. The poor are subject to morality just like anyone else. Poverty is not a license to be immoral. I will judge the poor just like everyone else. Anyone who cannot afford to have kids but has them anyway is immoral. There is no shame in being poor. There is shame in being poor and immoral. There are general rules everyone should follow. Not having kids when you can?t afford to care for them is one of those rules. If someone intentionally breaks that rule they are being immoral. And who was the victim here? Millions of starving children who were created by such people. There can be no compromise on this!

Last edited by hyena on 04 Jun 2014, 3:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Reason? What reason? The I put taste before the lives and well being of others reason, or the I can't survive as vegan despite great scientific evidence to the contrary reason?

Vitamin B12

It doesn't show up fast because of how you store (you tend to not start showing the signs of being low on B12 for a few years); I suspect you've only became vegan recently if you do not know the issues surround veganism and B12. Either that or you have only surrounded yourself with people who want to believe that a non-supplemented vegan diet contains everything.

However B12 is lacking from a vegan diet and it is extremely important to supplement it, because if you don't then you will eventually lead to nervous system damage. In fact about 50% of vegetarians also need to supplement B12 because of not getting enough from their food.

It is however, possible to get vegan supplements as it is produced by a bacteria in the gut of animals. Humans, due to our eating of animal products, have lost the ability to produce usable B12 ourselves, and instead get it from our food. So, you can use the bacteria without it actually being in an animal to get a vegan one. (mine are vegetarian but not vegan, as lactose is used somewhere in the production process)

I've on and off supplemented B12 as a vegetarian just to be safe.

I have been vegan for 6 years and have been fully aware of the B12 issue. Cyanocobalamin is fully vegan, therefore B12 is not missing from a vegan diet! So what's your point!? That B12 is available on a vegan diet? That is what I said. You seem to be disagreeing with me and yet confirming what I am saying!

It is quite a stretch of the word "diet" to include vitamin supplements. The fact is, it can't be obtained from vegan food (the usual sense of the word diet) and must be supplemented.

I am not and never will be a vegan. It is unhealthy. There are plenty of doctors who will call it healthy and I have no doubt you can find reams of links. However, these doctors are always comparing it to the straw man of a processed food diet centered around factory-farmed animals (which you correctly identify as living a horrible life of torture). But it is disingenuous to frame that as the only possible way to eat meat. That has only come into being in the past century or less. The rest of human history is full of healthy animal products, including those consumed by vegetarian societies such as subsets of India (they get healthy saturated fat from ghee- eating from the cow without killing it). There is a giant health gulf between vegetarian and vegan diets. I could advocate a vegetarian diet as potentially healthy- if it includes eggs or yogurt or butter or ghee or some sort of animal product and doesn't slide into vegan. We evolved eating these creatures and eating from them and our bodies haven't changed since then (except for some to have lactase into adulthood- making dairy even more important).

I don't buy factory farmed meat or animal products. I buy my animal products from the local farmers market and from a small farm about 20 miles from my house. The cows and chickens don't live a life of torture. I've seen them. Then they are killed and I eat them. This is normal, natural and healthy.

All animal products used to come exclusively from small farms such as this. It's a hand-to-mouth existence and a labor of love for these farmers. I am grateful they still exist and am more than happy to give them my money in exchange for eggs from truly free range chickens and the chickens themselves.

And a shout out to Temple Grandin of course- for trying to make the death of farm animals as non-painful and non-scary as possible. She has made it her goal to create ways for the animals to not even realize they are in danger before their quick-as-possible death.

Could I kill to eat? I already have via fishing. I caught some fish, a friend cleaned them, and we ate them- as people have for the last 100,000 years.

It is not a stretch of the word ?diet?! Our diet includes vitamin supplements. Even regular products are often fortified with vitamin supplements. If it was a stretch then the dieticians would not regard a vegan diet as ?as appropriate for all stages of the life-cycle? because B12 would be missing. If you wish to give new definitions to words you can but don?t expect others to follow suit.

Animal products including eggs ,dairy and red meat are considered unhealthy by professionals. That is why they recommend limiting their use. It is possible to minimize the harm by not eating too much of it.

You say that we evolved eating those creatures and therefore need them or something along those lines, but then say a vegetarian diet is potentially healthy. We evolved with meat, not with eggs and dairy. This seems contradictory.

Evolution need not accurately dictate our needs today. Whereas in the past, a life of 40 years with 10 offspring would be considered successful today it isn?t. It was not necessary in the past to live 80 years in order to pass on your genes. Today we want to live long healthy lives not spread our genes as much as possible. You can easily spread your genes in 50 years, often making the other 30 wasteful (especially for females.) Most people can easily reach an age of 50 even with very unhealthy diets. So healthy diets were not a necessity in the past. Calories and nutrient dense food was far more important than healthy food. Today we want to live 80 years, which was not a priority in the past. Today we have a variety of foods which would never have been possible in the past.

People have also committed genocide, infanticide, and many other crimes in the past 100,000 years.

That's bs! Your brain functions on glucose! We don't, I repeat, We don't need animals to survive! The facts: 100% of vegans are free from heart disease (exept hereditary diseases) and vegans and vegetarians have 40% less chance of developing cancer! So come on, stop eating meat!

Do you use non-food products that require material from animals?

http://www.peta.org/living/beauty/anima ... ents-list/

No.

I have absolutely no intention of stopping eating meat. Ever.

No. I am beautiful enough.

It isn't just cosmetics, it's an entire range of products, of which I'm fairly certain most vegans/vegetarians use. It doesn't make sense to me that someone would stop eating the food, but continue to use other products (including medicine). That is my only point here, though I could be oblivious to choices that do not contain animals, however that seems like a huge hassle.

Which products? It may be possible that without knowing we may use a product that contains some sort of animal ingredient. But it is unintentional. That would be rare, and we still contribute very little to animal cruelty. Just because it may currently be impossible to avoid all of them does not mean we should not avoid the ones we can avoid. You should do as little harm as possible. Just because it may be impossible to eliminate all harm does not mean it does not make sense to eliminate as much as possible.

Don't stress, I do understand your point of view, and I respect it (really, I get it), I'm just trying to describe mine. I haven't really formed a coherent post though, it's scattered all over the place.

It doesn't make me proud to say 'I eat meat', but I can't convince myself not to based on everything that is in my head. I don't feel guilty for it as a result.

I'm sorry if I have projected arrogance or anything like that.

You are not arrogant. I ate less healthy before going vegan. As a result of it my diet is much healthier. It was beneficial for me as well as reducing harm to animals.