I'm really sick of attacks against NT's here

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Seconded.

I'm a mortgage payer. I've had the same job for 33 years.

I don't disagree with Ezra; it was Ezra's impression.

Hi Ezra I am NT and I come on here sometimes because a friend (or acquaintance im not sure) has Aspergers.

I admire your courage in your post. I have an observation I wanted to share.

Human beings are basically in it for themselves and thats not a bad thing its just our evolution and instinct to survive driving this behavior. Its not immorality. Its not the desire to hurt other human beings. Human beings for the most part are basically good but they do make mistakes for sure. This seems to apply to both NT and people with Autism.

One thing I have noticed with people with Autism is they want to be accepted. I feel this should be a fundamental right. We see this has happened a lot with minorities whether they are in the minority due to race, religion, sexual orientation, etc. I think people with autism have a right to be accepted.

I did want to point something out that has helped me in my life and maybe someone reading this it will help them.

Human beings have a relationship where I scratch your back, you scratch mine. It is give - take. For example parents get a sense of pride knowing their child is continuing their legacy and they are fulfilling their obligations before God (or whatever they believe in) by taking care of the child. Boys who are friends will often play games together or engage in activities that are stimulating for both. Romances occur and there are exciting interactions there as well and things that both people in the relationship gain.

One thing I see on here too often is just a gross misunderstanding of what is occurring. "NT's just want things from me". You're absolutely right. So do people with autism. If you are in a relationship with another human being, chances are they are providing something you need or want. The reason I am pointing this out is I found it easier to make friends in life once I had things that people wanted whether it is for a friend or love interest. In my case I became more conversational about mainstream things such as movies, music and actors. I dabbled in sports but dislike sports even today because I was so bad at them as a child. I latched on to MMA Mixed Martial Arts because it interested me very much and now know more about that sport than almost anyone I run into. Anyway this is just one aspect of socializing but basically I can hold a conversation because I put effort into it. I read books like How To Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie. I also am a workout addict. I lifted weights for an hour and did cardio for an hour today. This has been the biggest thing helping me to date and make friends to be honest as my last 4 friends have been made in the gym or when a conversation started about working out. All of the last few women I have dated have wanted to date me because I was in shape specifically and have made comments to that effect. In other words I treated myself as a product and I wanted this product to be something other people would be interested in. Anyway I am probably rambling at this point but hopefully there is something here that someone can use.

I didn't read this whole thread so I don't know what people have been saying, but I'm not disagreeing with him either. I'm saying this is an Autism web site, people with Autism who have been knocked around their whole lives come here. Sometimes they say OW! Sue them.

The way I see this situation is that it is not the "NT," that is the problem because what the F is that anyway? It's society that is the problem, and we are as much a part of society as any other group. So it's partly us too, everybody has to change - none of us knows how to make it work. Is it right to blame the "NTs"? No, I don't think so.

But still, when people get knocked around, they're going to say OW sometimes.

That is all I'm saying.

I have to agree with you on this one. The fact that there is no place in society for us to be who we are and are force to act like someone we are not, while NT have the privilege or right to just be them selves while we have to struggle. It would be nice if we could stim in public and have that behavior accepted as normal. We have to live an oppressed life because are natural behavior is incompatible with mainstream society.

Everybody lives somewhat of an oppressed life in terms of what you're saying; autistics have stimming, NTs have social pressures that shape their behaviour too.

Being 'NT' does not mean your brain is equipped for anything (it is often just as far from as an autistic brain). While there are some people that have relatively privileged lives, I wouldn't say it's because they are NT, but because of the rest of their brain which is unaccounted for by such divisions of neurology. There are obviously a ton of other factors that likely go into it, but that requires a dedicated thread.

Disclaimer : I've come to this thread late, I've had a s**t day, and a few too many drinks.

This much I agree with

I

It's not quite so simple. On a basic level, yes why would you be around someone that offers you nothing for your efforts not so much as a smile, hello or time of day? Well as someone who is autistic and selectively mute, this is a f*****g big effort. So if I make the effort to give someone eye contact, a smile, a cheery hello, and enquire about their wellbeing only to have the NT person ignore me , grunt, or make some snarky comment, I'm only going to keep trying for so long.

Secondly, NTs DO expect a lot, perhaps without realising it. Those of us who are a bit older and grew up before diagnosis and special schools grew up in families and communities that were 99% NT. Our bullies were and are predominantly NT . We grew up somewhere between disabled and "normal" and so were just expected to conform, no matter the logic. We were expected to sit still, not stim, not vocalise, pay attenteion , stand up straight, not fold our arms, look people in the eye, don't talk back ,don't correct the 2nd grade teacher even if she is an idiot, play with those stupid dolls, wear dresees, get along with the cool kids that were bullying us, deal with loud noises, bright lightsw, clothes that feel like cheese graters on your skin and not complain because no one gives a s**t anyway.........and that's before 10 am. Nt's don't have to deal with this .

What you say kraftiekortie is very wise indeed, could not have tried to describe it better myself.

This isn't something only people with autism go through. Plenty of NTs have social problems, especially in later life (and plenty in early life too), and they also have difficulties in adjusting to society in varying degrees.

dianthus' comments about NTs being alien are simplistic and myopic. NTs aren't significantly different to us; they have the same impulses, desires, fears, and thoughts. And as someone who is autistic I can relate to what individual NTs say on other forums more than anything dianthus has posted. But then she isn't autistic, so maybe that's why? Or maybe it's just that I'm an individual and I can relate to other individuals whose individual thoughts, experiences, fears, doubts, loves, and tribulations bear similarity to my own?

I have been bullied, teased, and have had negative experiences with other people due to my autistic behaviours. But those are individuals - painting them with the one general label "NT" i.e. anyone who isn't autistic, or neurodivergent, or whatever, and then knocking them, is to me, completely senseless.

You can communicate and raise issues that affect people with autism without being censorious and coming across as rancorous.

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Last edited by Acedia on 03 Jun 2014, 9:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

I agree with this, though I suspect Kraftie refers to an 'NT World' consisting of more than the social aspect. Sensory issues, expectations (involving change) etc.



I absolutely agree that NTs aren't significantly different to autistics, the differences caused by 'brain wiring' are in reality, not too dramatic. Everyone is still human, and everybody feels different to others (incredibly at times, mostly during adolescence), it just doesn't appear that way. I'm clueless as to why 'I've always felt different' is used so frequently when questioning neurology.

I'd definitely say that it's individual similarity that allows you to relate, as that's generally how it works for everybody (as you alluded to earlier). I'm not sure if I'm interpreting this correctly, but to me it seems you're attacking Dianthus (you state she isn't autistic, while her signature suggests she may be). I'm not too sure of your motivation for that (I still idealize a misinterpretation) but it's not my issue to discuss.



100% agree. This is what I try and vouch for when I encounter posts that attack NTs.

I'm making a rhetorical point - in that I don't feel closer to people just because I share the same neurology or not. My neurological differences aren't important. And that's what should matter.

Thanks for clearing that up. I wouldn't have mentioned it had I not been really confused.

I feel happy when I think about your post. It matches a lot of what is in my head.

-pashes

I don't bemoan the existence of the "NT world." It's a world which is rich, but which is also beset with difficulties (for all). We are members of the earth; we must always strive to overcome these difficulties; we must not give up.

It's difficult, sometimes, for people with ASD's, some of whom have sensory issues which are not readily understood by the greater society (due to a relative lack of exposure to them), to adjust to the generalized world (i.e., a shared world between NT's and people with ASD's).

There are many people, in my experience, who would attribute various sensory issues to something which is only within the person's "head"--manifestations of psychosomatic illness. These people, at times, believe that people with ASD's who suffer from sensory issues are "making excuses."

This, and various social difficulties bought about by neurological differences, brings about frustration for people on the Spectrum for many reasons--some of which have to do with issues related to material success, independence, and finding a suitable life partner.

This is why knowledge of ASD's (much of which is of recent vintage) must be disseminated in a way which is palatable to all. It must not be conveyed in an angry, vitriolic, or strident manner. One must not bemoan the "ignorance" of people who are unaware. One must, instead, use Socratic methods in educating the public at large.

just attack everyone. they are all fair game.

Different people have different ideas about what is or is not negative, as is evidenced by the comments on this thread. The feedback that you have given is interesting, but interestingly it seems to circumvent the fact that people naturally want to turn things in their own direction, and generally speaking this is to avoid pain. I have read a lot of your messages and I think you and I are a good example of this. It is obvious to me that you really are a caring person and want to help people, and I know I do, too, so we both are functioning from the altruistic motivation, generally speaking, but have different ideas about how to help people. I think to sort that kind of thing out is not so easy and really requires a dedication to doing that.

Where it gets more complex is that it feels really good to help people, and even the thought of doing this or, even better, joining together with other people to do it can take away not only pain for others but a lot of personal pain, no question, but another question that arises is if it completely solves the problem or even could in some ways be making it worse. For instance, to use an ethnic group that is being persecuted by another ethnic group as an example, it can really feels good to belong to a particular group. It can feel like family, but a lot of discord can arise out of this, also, and I think one problem is that a person can confuse his personal pain of having grown up in and being in a family that is in some ways dysfunctional with the pain of other people and so be buffering or putting a palliative on certain feelings under the guise, or, better put, tent of wanting to help other people. Any of us could be doing this without fully realizing it. This is why I asked that question.

Certain kinds of emotions need to simply be felt and it can be very painful. I am not sure it is even possible for all people, at least right now, but maybe someday. It is even painful for me to write this or right it. I have to take a deep breath. No one knows what we have been through. Personally I have been through hell, and a lot of my suffering was actually because of my own wrong thinking and idealism. I thought I could get out my situation by pretending it wasn't there. This slowed down my healing. If only I had had better direction between ages twenty and fifty, though I am grateful for the help I did receive.

Another big problem which I will not go into now, but it is something to think about, is that for many if not most or even basically all autistic, people, the autism is mixed in with various psychological problems, personality disorders and what is called co-morbids, so if a person says he is going to sort it all out by looking at others outside of him as normal and himself as autistic or even as different, then that is too general, too black and white. I think an important point has already been brought up that each person is so unique. And yet in another way it is good to see that all people are similar. So how to put both of these ways of seeing things together so that they work in conjunction to make the best advantage and not just create further distortion? Dianthus touched on this question in the message I gave a link to yesterday. Here is the link again. I have not yet had time to reply.

http://www.wrongplanet.net/postp6081625.html#6081625

I do not agree with the various gist of what she is saying seems to be pointing to, but the material is very well presented in terms of personal and also group enquiry and has many interesting questions in it. She is noticing that people tend to function from making these broad kinds of generalizations, and with this I very much agree. Here is a part of that message:

I agree about the attacks against NTs here, but what annoys me more is when people on the spectrum make assumptions about NTs which are not actual attacks but just inaccurate assumptions. It seems more like black and white thinking. Over the last 3 or 4 years of being a member on WP, I have come across various implications like ''NTs hate routine'', ''NTs love noise'', ''NTs hate being alone'', ''nothing interests NTs''. I'm not saying I have read these in those exact words but I have just seen the message thrown in discussions, and it is not accurate. Yes there may be some NTs out there who hate routine, but even most NTs that I know prefer some sort of structure, and those that don't prefer structure don't necessarily hate routine, it just becomes their lifestyle. Yes for most people with ASDs we feel more secure when being able to stick to a strict routine, but that does not mean NTs hate routine.

I suppose I was brought up in an NT family and went to mainstream school, so I know a lot about NTs. If you have more severe cases of Autism and was brought up by perhaps parents on the spectrum or with other conditions and you was home-schooled or went to a special school or just lived in your own world for most of your life, then yes maybe it is hard to actually imagine how most NTs think and view the world. But I do know a lot about NTs because I have always observed NT behaviour and I was never one to be in my own world.