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Rampage killer Chris Harper-Mercer was an Aspie

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Campin_Cat
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05 Oct 2015, 11:39 am

NowhereWoman wrote:
League_Girl wrote:
The comments that were offputting in that groups were people saying that what causes autistics to kill is intolerance and ignorance as if we are blaming their actions on other people implying it's other peoples fault they did it.


Oh, I see. I am sorry...I wasn't trying to imply that. What I was saying is that the actual state of being autistic doesn't make a person angry (since anger was a theme that kept being repeated) but more often, how the person is treated. But I didn't mean to imply that murder was okay or even that anger in autistics (or anyone) should naturally result in murder. Personally I've never known an autistic person who would use his or her anger at his or her treatment in order to murder or even harm another person. That's just my experience.

I'm pretty horrified at this entire situation as is the rest of the world, I am sure. I was making these statements (or I thought I was) in response to the comments regarding "angry autistics" and not to justify murder. There is no justification.

Sometimes, when I am trying to get a thought out, although I think I'm being clear, I'm actually jumbled, so that's on me. Nobody's fault but my own and in fact my rambling and repetitive style is something I work on daily.

If you're thinking League_Girl was making that post because of something YOU said, I don't think she was----I think she was just informing the people on this thread / people who might read this thread; so, don't worry about it.




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05 Oct 2015, 11:47 am

ASPartOfMe wrote:
Aspergers was ONE of the factors with Adam Lanza and if Mercer was an Aspie Aspergers is probably ONE factor in that both men had a special interest in school shooters. There is a myth that special interests are only nerdy, geeky topics like train schedules, baseball stats, comics etc. This myth are a reason for underdiagnosis in females. A special interest can be any topic as long as it is obsessive and narrow.

We need to stop denying this.This does not take away that autistics are more likely to be victims then perpetrators at all.

Is it possible that these people had other conditions that yielded Aspie like symptoms? Seeing how sketchy some diagnosticians can be, I could easily see someone taking the easy path and say " Oh, you have Asperger's" and not bothering to delve deeper. And, as we all know, a diagnosis depends on a person answering the questions given to them honestly. Ted Bundy could act normally, Hitler could, and so could Stalin.


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Campin_Cat
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05 Oct 2015, 11:55 am

iliketrees wrote:
League_Girl wrote:
The comments that were offputting in that groups were people saying that what causes autistics to kill is intolerance and ignorance as if we are blaming their actions on other people implying it's other peoples fault they did it.

Anything that tries to validate killing completely innocent bystanders is deeply disturbing to me. All these people did was turn up to class. They did nothing wrong. I don't think we should blame them for getting killed.

I agree!

To HIM, though, if he were alive to tell it, he would probably say they picked on him, or something. As I understand it, it was one of HIS classes / HIS teacher. Also, the fact that he made them all lie-down, then stand-up, one-by-one, and state their religion, may be the thing that was disturbing to him. It was a writing class, IIRC, maybe the last time he was in class, they discussed what inspired them to write, and several of them said "God"----and, maybe, that ticked-him-off cuz he felt if there WAS a God, He wouldn't have let him suffer, all-his-life; or, made him "defective", in-the-FIRST-place. I dunno.....

Another comparison with other killers, that I sense, is that they're spoiled-rotten-brats (which might be why someone has already mentioned "narcissists")----going-back to even the Columbine killers----but again, it's just a theory of mine.....




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League_Girl
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05 Oct 2015, 12:00 pm

Campin_Cat wrote:
League_Girl wrote:
The comments that were offputting in that groups were people saying that what causes autistics to kill is intolerance and ignorance as if we are blaming their actions on other people implying it's other peoples fault they did it.

I wonder what they think we're intolerant / ignorant of?



No what I meant was, when autistic adults were saying that to the creator in their group that autism doesn't cause us to kill, intolerance and not understanding us does.

I was talking about that Facebook group someone posted here. It was about autistics being violent and the person who created that age was saying those people killed due to their autism. Just a bunch of autistic people were saying on that page that it was intolerance and not understanding autistic people is what makes them kill, not their autism.


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05 Oct 2015, 12:04 pm

NowhereWoman wrote:
League_Girl wrote:
The comments that were offputting in that groups were people saying that what causes autistics to kill is intolerance and ignorance as if we are blaming their actions on other people implying it's other peoples fault they did it.


Oh, I see. I am sorry...I wasn't trying to imply that. What I was saying is that the actual state of being autistic doesn't make a person angry (since anger was a theme that kept being repeated) but more often, how the person is treated. But I didn't mean to imply that murder was okay or even that anger in autistics (or anyone) should naturally result in murder. Personally I've never known an autistic person who would use his or her anger at his or her treatment in order to murder or even harm another person. That's just my experience.

I'm pretty horrified at this entire situation as is the rest of the world, I am sure. I was making these statements (or I thought I was) in response to the comments regarding "angry autistics" and not to justify murder. There is no justification.

Sometimes, when I am trying to get a thought out, although I think I'm being clear, I'm actually jumbled, so that's on me. Nobody's fault but my own and in fact my rambling and repetitive style is something I work on daily.


I was talking about that Facebook group about autistic people killing. Someone posted a link to that page in this thread I don't remember who. But I saw a bunch of comments there posted by people on the spectrum that autism doesn't cause us to kill, intolerance and not understanding us does. It just put me off because it looked like they were justifying the shootings and blaming it on other people. It came off to me as "If people will accept autistic people more, none of them would be doing any violence."

I guess I wasn't clear and I apologize.


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05 Oct 2015, 12:10 pm

Woot, that Facebook page is gone now.


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05 Oct 2015, 12:14 pm

glebel wrote:
Ted Bundy could act normally, Hitler could, and so could Stalin.

That's because they were. Mental illness is determined by one's ability to fit into society as a whole, if one doesn't fit in they are termed "mentally ill"-- it's not that there is any biological difference with most mental illnesses, but the inability or lack of desire to conform itself is the mental illness. Augustus Caesar killed a significant amount of Romans, that was the cost of "doing business" and people today don't claim he was mentally ill-- that's just how Rome operated. Fact is Hitler and Stalin fit into their societies therefore they were not mentally ill (if Bundy had power he would have been acceptable too, but that's delving into hierarchy). It's easier to say "oh they were mentally ill" than to look at the animal tendencies humans still retain as the cause, that would lead to change and change is worse than a four letter word when we talk about human behavior. Yes, they killed a lot of people, that's actually not an anomaly when we look at the course of human history.



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05 Oct 2015, 12:29 pm

League_Girl wrote:
I was talking about that Facebook group about autistic people killing. Someone posted a link to that page in this thread I don't remember who. But I saw a bunch of comments there posted by people on the spectrum that autism doesn't cause us to kill, intolerance and not understanding us does. It just put me off because it looked like they were justifying the shootings and blaming it on other people. It came off to me as "If people will accept autistic people more, none of them would be doing any violence."

I guess I wasn't clear and I apologize.


That's actually a logical premise though. That's not condoning murder, but looking at the underlying causes. If a person is accepted in their society what reason does that individual have to kill, and kill in a way that makes a statement as mass killing do? There's a reason that a majority of mass killings involve an ostracized person, if people continue to neglect that relationship in favor of "oh they're just mentally ill, go about your business" these events will continue to happen. The entire premise of society is that it's more beneficial to be in a group than to go it alone, if a person is constantly pushed out of said society and forced to go it alone how much loyalty do you think they're going to have for said society? Again, it's not condoning murder, it's looking at the underlying causes.



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05 Oct 2015, 1:31 pm

Aristophanes wrote:
League_Girl wrote:
I was talking about that Facebook group about autistic people killing. Someone posted a link to that page in this thread I don't remember who. But I saw a bunch of comments there posted by people on the spectrum that autism doesn't cause us to kill, intolerance and not understanding us does. It just put me off because it looked like they were justifying the shootings and blaming it on other people. It came off to me as "If people will accept autistic people more, none of them would be doing any violence."

I guess I wasn't clear and I apologize.


That's actually a logical premise though. That's not condoning murder, but looking at the underlying causes. If a person is accepted in their society what reason does that individual have to kill, and kill in a way that makes a statement as mass killing do? There's a reason that a majority of mass killings involve an ostracized person, if people continue to neglect that relationship in favor of "oh they're just mentally ill, go about your business" these events will continue to happen. The entire premise of society is that it's more beneficial to be in a group than to go it alone, if a person is constantly pushed out of said society and forced to go it alone how much loyalty do you think they're going to have for said society? Again, it's not condoning murder, it's looking at the underlying causes.


Introverts in general are treated as suspect in our society, with few exceptions. I believe there are several influences. One is the proliferation of conservative religious congregations, another is the polarization of mass politics & social views via mass media. Note that these may all be directly connected, but are not the underlying cause. Under both are politicians and their financiers who benefit from an easily controlled populous - or more precisely, two easily controlled near majorities. Somewhat unregulated capitalism, highly protected religion and representative democracy it turns out, are a good mix for some but only somewhat advantageous for most. In all of these levels & groups, individuals are not celebrated; rather they are treated as "other" or "out-group" and therefore untrusted.


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05 Oct 2015, 2:07 pm

glebel wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
Aspergers was ONE of the factors with Adam Lanza and if Mercer was an Aspie Aspergers is probably ONE factor in that both men had a special interest in school shooters. There is a myth that special interests are only nerdy, geeky topics like train schedules, baseball stats, comics etc. This myth are a reason for underdiagnosis in females. A special interest can be any topic as long as it is obsessive and narrow.

We need to stop denying this.This does not take away that autistics are more likely to be victims then perpetrators at all.

Is it possible that these people had other conditions that yielded Aspie like symptoms? Seeing how sketchy some diagnosticians can be, I could easily see someone taking the easy path and say " Oh, you have Asperger's" and not bothering to delve deeper. And, as we all know, a diagnosis depends on a person answering the questions given to them honestly. Ted Bundy could act normally, Hitler could, and so could Stalin.


Lanza was diagnosed by Fred Volkemer at Yale a noted specialist and member of the DSM IV. In addition to his Social problems his strong and numourous sensory sensitivities and the special interest in school shooters is well documented. He kept a spreadsheet of every school shooting going back to the late 1800's as well as collecting newspaper clippings going back that far. So while Lanza might not have been an aspie or his special interest is totally caused by something else is doubtful. With Mercer the evidence is far less clear. We may never have the volume of evidence about Mercer we do with Lanza because of the growing opinion we should not talk about the perpetrators of spree school shootings.

Report that Mercer also had a special interest in satanism.
http://www.people.com/article/oregon-shooting-gunman-had-obsession-satan


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05 Oct 2015, 3:59 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
I feel the point really is:

That we glorify mass murderers by our constant analysis of them. This creates a certain fascination for mass murderers, which future mass murderers eat up. It's like "feeding the troll" on a much greater scale.

I understand the need for analysis--but, at the same time, we don't vilify the actions of these mass murderers enough. Like another poster stated, we blame it on the disorder, rather than the person.

I don't see how vilifying does anything but make us feel better. It doesn't prevent mass murderers. They already decided to become villains. They don't care about our opinion. They don't care about their own life. They want to die. How do you prevent that? I don't think anyone would want to throw away their life by killing innocent people if they weren't in a state of extreme psychological pain. I'm not saying killers are "victims". That's a loaded term. Whether they are inherently evil from the beginning or not, they wouldn't make the decision to do what they did if they weren't in some kind of pain. It objectively makes more sense to look for the signs and take preventative action. You can't look for signs that somebody is about to go off if you have any inkling what's going on inside their head and just label it "evil". It's just not useful. They don't care. They want to be villains. They want to be infamous. They no longer care about life - theirs or others. You can't stop that by vilifying.



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05 Oct 2015, 4:50 pm

marshall wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
I feel the point really is:

That we glorify mass murderers by our constant analysis of them. This creates a certain fascination for mass murderers, which future mass murderers eat up. It's like "feeding the troll" on a much greater scale.

I understand the need for analysis--but, at the same time, we don't vilify the actions of these mass murderers enough. Like another poster stated, we blame it on the disorder, rather than the person.

I don't see how vilifying does anything but make us feel better. It doesn't prevent mass murderers. They already decided to become villains. They don't care about our opinion. They don't care about their own life. They want to die. How do you prevent that? I don't think anyone would want to throw away their life by killing innocent people if they weren't in a state of extreme psychological pain. I'm not saying killers are "victims". That's a loaded term. Whether they are inherently evil from the beginning or not, they wouldn't make the decision to do what they did if they weren't in some kind of pain. It objectively makes more sense to look for the signs and take preventative action. You can't look for signs that somebody is about to go off if you have any inkling what's going on inside their head and just label it "evil". It's just not useful. They don't care. They want to be villains. They want to be infamous. They no longer care about life - theirs or others. You can't stop that by vilifying.

If we simply stopped referring to these people by name, I think it would eliminate any desire for them to commit these acts. You may kill some people, but you will disappear into oblivion. The way we handle it now just feeds their egos.
The problem with preventative action is :
A) Some people think that their individual rights supersede the rights of society as a whole, and
B) We Aspies could end up getting hassled because we have a meltdown ( " Oh my God, he's going postal !).


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05 Oct 2015, 6:02 pm

glebel wrote:
If we simply stopped referring to these people by name, I think it would eliminate any desire for them to commit these acts. You may kill some people, but you will disappear into oblivion. The way we handle it now just feeds their egos.
The problem with preventative action is :
A) Some people think that their individual rights supersede the rights of society as a whole, and
B) We Aspies could end up getting hassled because we have a meltdown ( " Oh my God, he's going postal !).

It's impossible for the killer to not get any attention when a ton of people died. Even if they don't get attention from the media, they still gravely impacted the families of the victims. It's also obvious there's a lot more to it than being "aspie". If people are so mindlessly stupid as to be automatically afraid of anyone who is "weird" they are doing the exact thing that makes the problem worse. A few people become randomly violent because they are constantly stigmatized, the stigma gets worse, the more people go off. We as a society are so stupid. Parents who allow their ANGRY children access to weapons and stockpiles of ammunition thinking it will somehow "build their confidence" are also a problem. So many idiots in this world.

In any case, I think there's a better chance at fixing stupidity than fixing "evil".



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05 Oct 2015, 8:06 pm

Didn't read all six pages so this may be old news, but I just read that the shooter's mother also has Asperger's.



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05 Oct 2015, 8:07 pm

YippySkippy wrote:
Didn't read all six pages so this may be old news, but I just read that the shooter's mother also has Asperger's.

Link, please?



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05 Oct 2015, 8:30 pm

Fnord wrote:
YippySkippy wrote:
Didn't read all six pages so this may be old news, but I just read that the shooter's mother also has Asperger's.

Link, please?

Image

There ya go.