Are you trans-neurological?

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Saw an article once that described China by a political analyst. Quoting: "China wants to be America, but, they do not want to be American." I can see that. Wife is Chinese, so a bit of insight on that.

But, my mind is warped so with the Transcontinent thing, this is what I actually had rumbling in my head.

If China wants to be America, but not American, does that make China a Lesbian Transwomancontinent?

OK. Slings and arrows expected, but, I thought it was funny......

I can look at the "Aspie" traits I have, look at my life and easily realize that if I woke up tomorrow without Asperger's, I wouldn't lose anything of value or anything I care about. Those things are a part of my personality, not a quirk of neurology. What I would lose are things that I would love to be rid of. Hindrances that make it more difficult to do what I care about and love.

So I see no positive traits of my autism. I see positive traits of myself that were influenced by it. That's done and done. What I'm left with is a bunch of problems that I'd love to be able to solve.

In truth, I'm wary of the idea that "positive traits of autism" actually exist, given there's no way to know what a person would have been like if they'd been born "NT". I don't think I'd be so different, in any case.

I can agree to a point about not knowing what it's like to be different and trying to guess what the removal of those traits may produce as a result. But, I think it's splitting hairs to differentiate between "Aspie trait" vs "Aspie influence". But, hey, Potayto, potahto....

The list you quoted is actually very close to my impression of myself as I learn about this. And, I would be afraid of something that would change my mind drastically such as the experiments using techniques in the brain that effectively rewires it. It was in another thread and the person the study was done on said that after the treatment he suddenly realized what it was like to be able to read faces and such. But there were other effects not so good.

Again, "Flower's for Algernon" is my fear.

May I make a small clarification/suggestion/request, please? I've held off posting on this thread b/c I really wanted to think my response through carefully.

"Trans-aspie" as an accurate analogy would mean someone who has an Aspie brain (& perhaps other features or attributes if such things are found to exist) but has been forced since childhood to always try to act 100% NT due to cultural expectations. It would *not* be someone who is an Aspie and wishes to be NT. Just as trans people should be allowed to be themselves, so should people on the spectrum.

So please, don't mock the actual condition/ atypical variance of being transgender or transsexual by saying things like,
"I wish I was X, so I must be Trans-XYZ!! !" as some sort of attempt to be clever or humorous. It's neither, and it is hurtful whether intentionally so or not.

We put up with a lot of that sort of thing ("hey, I want to be a cat so I must be trans-feline!") when people wish to mock, harm or bully us. Please don't do that here, there just aren't very many safe, understanding, accepting places for people who are both trans *and* on the spectrum. I've tried to point out to people on other threads why bullying trans people *here*, on WP is so incredibly wrong. The two are both atypical brain development variations out at the edge of "normal" for humans across populations and over time. They are also so similar because they share NT people's expectations and assumptions that they know better than we do what and who we are, what we are capable of, what is real and what isn't, and expect us to conform to their needs for us to conform to their "normal", even when we cannot.

You're not alone. This whole paragraph fits me exactly.

That makes perfect sense. Especially as I continue to 'discover' things I have wondered if my conditioning to be normal has something to do with it. For instance, I have always been hyper-aware of my hands. Never knowing what to do with them. They're usually in my pockets fidgeting. So, I wonder how much conditioning I had that would have made me so aware of them and yet always hide them unless needed.

You might be misunderstanding me. What I basically mean is that at this point in my life, whether a particular personality trait owes its existence to Asperger's is entirely academic. It's now backed up by experience and that provides an anchor point for it independent of a neurological defect (which is how I see autism; others are welcome to disagree). It is splitting hairs to some extent, which is why I don't especially care if some hypothetical cure would remove the neurological basis that led to some of these traits.

Doesn't matter though, it won't happen any time soon or possibly ever.



I'm still dubious about this being a safe, understanding and accepting place in general. Attitudes like the ones you describe cast suspicion on the whole thing. It's part of the reason I act the way I do here; I do not trust a place to be any of those things if it blithely throws around abuse at entire categories of people. So every time I post here I'm coming in here with my guard up, like walking into a battle. On occasion individuals manage to get through, but the kind of behavior you're talking about has only made me more cynical about WP.

The reason for these posts on this particular thread about "I wish I were rich, therefore I am trans Income" are to mock the ridiculous original post . Not to mock transgender people. In fact the original post that we are all mocking could well be taken as mocking transgender people itself.

Pretty much.

I don't really view my traits as something wrong with me so I guess I do think that this is my personality. I always thought I was so different and unique. Nobody outside my family was like me. But now I know I'm not. I haven't decided whether this is good or bad.

But is my personality just part of some neurological disorder? I guess it's possible and that does bother me. I do wonder what part of me would be left if everything autism related was removed. I think my artistic talent, musical ability, my special interests would be there, maybe just less intense focus. Sense of humor. My silliness at times.

But many people in my family have parts of their personalities that are aspie-like. Autism is a spectrum and there are many with aspie traits that aren't aspies because they don't have either enough of them or they aren't to the same degree. So does that mean that those traits are always part of a neurological disorder?

Personality has been found to be largely genetic anyway ( like 75 percent). So if my father and grandfather contributed aspie traits to my personality then how is that different from everyone else?

Does autism need to be fixed? I think it depends on the degree. They think there are many autisms with different causes. Some people get along fine. Some are not fine at all, and they can't get the most out of life as they have a right to.

If people with autism can be "fixed" in a way that is really just allowing them to get around better in the world and get the most from life, then I'm for it. But I would never take any medications to change my brain, or have surgeries, or anything that would alter my personality. I just want ways to learn to cope with my differences.

Although I hate the sensory crap I have to deal with. That can just go away entirely. It's not part of my personality, it's a pain in my a**.

Substitute "truth" by logic if you want to. and as I always say, even feelings are logical; just because you don't understand where it comes from, it doesn't mean that it comes from nowhere. This post was more about the tendancie of NT to stick with " I VIEW THINGS THIS WAY IT'S LIKE THIS PERIOD NO NEED TO DISCUSS IT" than anything else (and I'm very well conscious that a big number of immature aspies are even worse when it comes to this, thank you. I'm talking about mature ones that learned to cope with the problems and turn them into an advantage.).

In practice it's pretty much everything but arrogant; if anything I'm TOO open-minded since I want to understand why, say, a racist person think the way he does in order to see if he isn't misunderstanding something and then judge. Personal emotions or world view do not need to interfere since everyone can be wrong about everything, including me; I doubt myself more than anyone else.

But yeah. The "my world view > all because freedom and no need to question myself" is pretty common and I'm fine with it as long as it doesn't hurt others, but when it does, well. We all share the same empirical world. Just because you think x because you are mistaken about y doesn't mean that it's right, especially if it hurts an innocent in the process. It's certainly more complicated than how most NT work (since one f the main difference between NT and aspies is that they are able to take "shortcuts" in social situations by assuming that the other understand things the same way as him; e.g. empathy; which is why we can be kind of slow; but in the same time, conscious logical thinking is a lot more flexible (.. is that a word in english? I don't remember.) than intuition so it's easier to question youself. Even if it's way slower/) but I wouldn't trade it against an ability to take shortcuts if it means that I could be more likely to take the wrong way if the other is more different than I thought, and I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have understood this so "easily" without all the problem autism caused me in my life; in fact when I was younger and still undiagnosed I was really kind of annoying, it's really embarassing to think about it. Difficulties are bad, but they can help you grow. (see later).
People can do whatever they want to as long as it doesn't affect me or hurt others without a reason, I have no problem with it, but being irresponsible with your own actions is another problem. And I know that "high-functioning NT" so to say can also be fine with that, yes, we're talking about the majority and about wether you'd like to be NT or not. Despite all this, I have no reason to consider autism as a problem. It helped me to go to where I stand, and I'm still learning right now through interactions, and it creates some problems, but NTs have their own problems too, and most of the time they don't even notice them. It's one of the advantages when you are the "dominant specie" (couldn't find a better word, sorry), since what you do is "normal" for other people it's less likely to be criticized. Therefore you don't learn. I probably would understand myself a lot less if I was NT since I would have been criticized a lot less than now since I'd be in the majority and so it would have resulted in a lot less reflexion. Yes, it' painful, but it does have its advantages. Kind of like friends telling you what they think compared to what you want to hear. Basically Autism isn't bad to me because its consequences were not useless. Sure, I might be the same as a NT. But since I would have been a lot less criticized, it's unlikely, I'd probably be stuck to my opinion on things and that's it since it'd be approved by others; even it it's wrong. You don't start to question your world view unless someone shatter it in front of your own eyes first, and it doesn't mean accepting that "NT are right", it means realizing that "there is a problem somewhere", and this somewhere doesn't HAVE TO be you (although it CAN be you of course. But you will not know it if the issue is not questioned. As I already said, I value THE truth more than anything else; arguing with someone because we aren't okay is ok; arguing with someone because this person want to antagonize me for some reason and THINK I think x when I think Y definitely isn't.). So being "broken" at a young age in order to learn that everything, including what ou say, isn't black and white is a small price to pay. And when most people are okay with you because some "social codes" are seen as "obvious and right period", there is an obvious loss in neutrality. Not that ALL social codes are bad but I'd rather see myself if they are bad or god rather than following it because empathy.

I cna understand what OP means and why he would say that. I just don't think the same at all and wouldn't trade my hardship and their results for a more comfortable life; which is why I said that I'm the polar opposite; I find it interesting to see this difference, if anything. I don't know THE truth, even if I would REALLY love to in order to find a way to make everyone happy at the same time, but at the very least I'm searching for it instead of being stuck on an opinion, ego, and on some arbitrary codes. It may imply some kind of nihilism since you have to question everything which makes you an alien to society because logic > social codes, but if you keep it balanced and not "the aspie is right period" but just apply the scientific method, it works.
And all of this wouldnt have happened without a LOT, LOT, LOT, believe me, of HARD slaps in my face because of asperger. I wish I could have died many times because of how hard it was, but in the end, I'd rather live like that than without questioning myself because I've never been questioned on if what I'm doing is "right" because it seemed normal to most people.

I hope I was a bit more clear about the "arrogant" part (I know I tend to give this impression a lot when it isn't the case at all), sorry for the lenght.

Elkeyros, I can substitute any word you'd like. I still disagree. Good on you (seriously ) for making an effort to clear things up and explain your point of view, but your premise seems flawed to me.

Especially since I started coming here, I've wondered whether the opposite is true. I find that a lot of aspies have a good sense of some "internal logic" that isn't actually applicable on a broader scale and struggles to hold up when examined critically. That's not the kind of logic one should be proud of, in my opinion. Ultimately, I doubt we can make any reasonable claim one way or the other and it kind of makes my skin crawl to think about doing so.

I'm not going to say much more, because I don't want to sound like I'm invalidating your experiences. A lot of mine have been similar and I can relate to a lot of them. I've just come to very different conclusions... and that's not an "aspie" thing to do. That's being human.



Looks to me like you've answered your own question.

As I said, it IS very typical from immature aspies. Aspies are often called psychorogid for a good reason (althoughNT saying this are often just as psychorigid and very quick to judge rather than trying to understand them; wathever). It all depends of how you cope with it in the end; basically it creates two extremes, either being hardcore psychorigid and shutting yourself from the world, or trying to compensate. But for this to apply you NEED to have experienced some things; maturity and understanding doesn't appear out of nowhere just like that.
And I don't talk about "internal logic". I hate "internal logic", it's the kind of thing that make people do hurtful things. It's not a matter of "this is logical to me so it's right", this isn't logic; it's being biased based on your own experiences. And it's something NT and immature aspies alike do a lot sadly and the cause of a lot of conflicts. While it IS "logic" (of course, EVERYTHING is in the end if you look far enough) it isn't logic in the "trying to understand the "why" without bias and falsehood" meaning.
It's a matter of trying to understand using the scientific method, no matter what YOU think yourself or what society would say is normal; taking into account how you work/how the other work. Even if I need to be alone sometimes, if it annoys someone I will not say that "shut up, I'm like that it's logical" because to me it makes sense, because I understand WHY it would annoy him/her. I'm not talking about some subjective "internal logic" here and that's exactly the point. Talking about internal logic is easy; doing it trying to understand why the things you find illogical ARE logical is way harder. But at the very least it gives you a clear understanding of the problem. Just because some ""logical"" aspies are abusing the concept, it doesn't mean that it HAS TO BE abused. In fact someone really caring about logic should try his best to understand everything instead of dismissing it as nonsense. The great question is, as always and in everything, the "why".

And I think the opposite, it's the ONLY kind of logic one should be proud of, because at the very least you're trying to be unbiased. Having an opinion is fine and all, but putting your own opinion before others and hurting them (and possibly yourself in the long run) because of this isn't.
And while some aspies are stupid too, let's face it, as I said, it is easier to question yourself when you HAVE reasons to do so because you've had difficulties. In other words when things make you question your "internal logic" as you say so you try to understand logic, including other people's logic and why they think the way they do, at a broader scale. Using "Internal logic isn't bad, but you need to be broken enough to realize the subjectivity of it beforehand in order to compensate for it later.
And being at odd with 95% of society is a good enough reason to question both yourself and others.
That's exactly the point yes, it doesn't work when applied to a broader scale, which is why I'm not talking about limiting yourself to YOUR "internal logic" but about trying to take a grasp of the WORLD using empirical logic; which implies a lot of doubt since everyone is different and something that is x to you can be different for y. The whole idea is to try not to be biased logic isn't. Of course, that's the whole point,getting past the "self" that is blocking you. Some things are still constantly here and true though; science is here for a reason, and logic itself IS something that hold its own; if it doesn't then you're lacking informations which would make you understand; it's not logic that is flawed, it's you, which indicates that something is going wrong.
And this is directly related to the problem, since it is easier to understand that you need to think about how things work and why they work this way when you get a slap in the face than when everything goes your way and it's not questioned. While yes, some aspies probably deal with it the bad way, and it makes them prioritize ""logic"'" over anything while not taking enough things about the outside world into account, it's not the point; hardships CAN make you wiser, it doesn't HAVE TO so yes, some aspies and "logic-seeker" don't try to understand the reason behind the """"false logic"""" they're seeing and therefore it doesn't hold its own in the end (and quite frankly to me the "hard rational, emotions are bad" is very often an insult to the idea of logic itself and is annoying; whatever.) but it depends of how you react to it. It depends of wether you try to learn from theses hardships or not. And because of this, I'd not consider my own autism as something negative, since thanks to it and he problems it causes I've questioned myself on quite a lot of things I possibly wouldn't have otherwise. Sure, some aspies are egocentric idiots despite this and sure, it doesn't HAVE TO be autism for you to understand that the whole world doesn't revolve around you, and this can also happen to some NTs as well when they get that empathy shouldn't always be trusted, but for me autism did the trick. Hence, would have trade autism for neurotypim? Hell no. No guarantee that it would turn the same way.

As my mother has told me "You don't need to understand, you just have to accept it" when talking about people and how they feel or why they are bothered by things, or why they don't like things, etc. Also she has asked me "Why do you need to understand it before you accept it?" I realized I didn't have to try to be logical or find a logical reason behind things just to respect something in a person. Even a member on here has said the same thing to us about feelings. "You don't need to understand why it was offensive, you just have to accept that someone found it offensive and apologize, not blame it on them."

So I learned we don't have to understand everything, we just need to accept. I am sure even NT parents go through it with their autistic children. They don't need to understand why something is painful for their autistic child that isn't a big deal to a lot of people, they just need to accept their child just does not like that texture and that it really bothers them. they don't need to understand why their kid is bobbling their hear, they just need to accept that is something they do for stimulation in noisy places. They don't need to understand why something is difficult for their child, they just need to accept that is it hard for them. But you see, even NTs do this too. If something doesn't make sense, they refuse to accept it. Not all of them are this way of course. My mom could never understand why I had to sniff everything I got my hands on but she decided to just accept it than trying to change it because everyone has their own little quirks, some people need to smell their food before they eat it and I just had my own little thing.

I don't know.

I just don't know.

I don't think I know anything anymore.

I get that. I think that's good advice. It is what I too have learned by way of experience with tangible things, not emotional or personal. I've tried to apply it when I do my looping review of events. But I get discombobulated when presented with something new and have trouble analyzing on the fly. It's only when I do the looping review that I can make sense of it.