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Is strict rule following really a thing with Asperger's?

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blitzkrieg
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17 Sep 2023, 7:08 pm

^ don't feed the bears. :lol:



naturalplastic
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17 Sep 2023, 8:38 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
I guess you're not a fan of civil disobedience, or of attempts being made to change rules?

There's rules that make sense to follow, but there's others that are unreasonable, unwise and/or unjust.

If the rules say you can't adopt to same-sex couples (for example) your employer is in the wrong and it's worthwhile to take a stand on that issue internally instead of just quitting. If your employment is actually vital to their operations the obligation to take a stand is even higher.

Just following orders isn't a valid excuse for participating in wrong-doing.

If the rules say women can't drive, should women just accept that and accept they'll be punished for violating those rules?

If you don't like HOA policies, laws, etc, work to get them rescinded or changed. Sometimes that process might even require breaking them and having to appeal to an outside body.

Yes, some rules like don't feed the bears make sense. That doesn't mean ever rule in existence is as commonsense as don't feed the bears.

Were talking about the real world.

In the real everyday world the people you encounter who have contempt for rules are NEVER heroic crusaders for democracy and social justice types.

They are usually folks like store clerks who refuse to break down empty cardboard boxes after stocking the contents on the shelves because they are mentally impaired in 3D thinking - and cant grasp the fact that you can stuff more boxes into that dumpster in the back when the boxes are flat than you can when the boxes are...not flat. :lol:

You would be amazed at how few human beings can grasp the concept that an intact box has more volume than the same box cut down to flat cardboard. :lol:



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17 Sep 2023, 9:35 pm

Quote:
If you don't like HOA policies, laws, etc, work to get them rescinded or changed. Sometimes that process might even require breaking them and having to appeal to an outside body.


If their rules are too controlling and ridiculous, they won't be able to sell any homes there. That is a consequence of having too many rules telling people what to do with their homes or yards.

If a boss has ludicrous policies, he will have a hell of a hard time keeping employers and wonder why isn't anyone applying or why are they flaking out after they are told the work policies.


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League_Girl
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17 Sep 2023, 9:40 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
I guess you're not a fan of civil disobedience, or of attempts being made to change rules?

There's rules that make sense to follow, but there's others that are unreasonable, unwise and/or unjust.

If the rules say you can't adopt to same-sex couples (for example) your employer is in the wrong and it's worthwhile to take a stand on that issue internally instead of just quitting. If your employment is actually vital to their operations the obligation to take a stand is even higher.

Just following orders isn't a valid excuse for participating in wrong-doing.

If the rules say women can't drive, should women just accept that and accept they'll be punished for violating those rules?

If you don't like HOA policies, laws, etc, work to get them rescinded or changed. Sometimes that process might even require breaking them and having to appeal to an outside body.

Yes, some rules like don't feed the bears make sense. That doesn't mean ever rule in existence is as commonsense as don't feed the bears.

Were talking about the real world.

In the real everyday world the people you encounter who have contempt for rules are NEVER heroic crusaders for democracy and social justice types.

They are usually folks like store clerks who refuse to break down empty cardboard boxes after stocking the contents on the shelves because they are mentally impaired in 3D thinking - and cant grasp the fact that you can stuff more boxes into that dumpster in the back when the boxes are flat than you can when the boxes are...not flat. :lol:

You would be amazed at how few human beings can grasp the concept that an intact box has more volume than the same box cut down to flat cardboard. :lol:




Reminds me of that scene in Malcolm in the Middle they had a rule about flattening boxes. But they had this ridiculous policy that you had to take the card board to an area and flatten it and then take it to the dumpster and Malcolm was like "Why not just take the boxes to the dumpster and flatten them there than taking them to another area to flatten and then take to the dumpster and go back to flatten another box and take back."

And there was only one area you were allowed to flatten them at making the task be longer. You couldn't flatten a box after it was empty and then take to the dumpster, you had to take it to a certain room just to flatten it which made zero sense. The whole show was comedy anyway.


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20 Sep 2023, 6:42 am

funeralxempire wrote:
I guess you're not a fan of civil disobedience, or of attempts being made to change rules?


You can obey rules while also attempting to change them.

Civil disobedience is one way to attempt to change rules, and there are many forms of civil disobedience.

Boycott to your heart's content.

I strongly dislike roadside sign-waving. I consider it a form of harassment.



funeralxempire
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20 Sep 2023, 2:49 pm

League_Girl wrote:
Quote:
If you don't like HOA policies, laws, etc, work to get them rescinded or changed. Sometimes that process might even require breaking them and having to appeal to an outside body.


If their rules are too controlling and ridiculous, they won't be able to sell any homes there. That is a consequence of having too many rules telling people what to do with their homes or yards.

If a boss has ludicrous policies, he will have a hell of a hard time keeping employers and wonder why isn't anyone applying or why are they flaking out after they are told the work policies.


Waiting around and hoping the invisible hand will eventually fix things isn't a viable solution.

Weight Of Memory wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
I guess you're not a fan of civil disobedience, or of attempts being made to change rules?


You can obey rules while also attempting to change them.

Civil disobedience is one way to attempt to change rules, and there are many forms of civil disobedience.

Boycott to your heart's content.

I strongly dislike roadside sign-waving. I consider it a form of harassment.


Why would one obey an unjust rule in the first place?

It's a good thing your definition of harassment isn't relevant to the discussion. Holding up signs is generally protected free speech.


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20 Sep 2023, 4:19 pm

To answer the question. I dunno.

When I was a child I was accused of being too much of a rule breaker in some areas of life ( and you had to explain the purpose of the rules to me or I would think that the rule was silly), and of being too much of a rule follower in other areas. Using my childhood self as an example you could go either way if you wanted to generalize about all autistics. I probably never bothered to button a shirt right (correct button to correct button hole) until I was around 15. So with clothes I was not a rule follower.

In my recent adult life? Sometimes I make up my own "rules" about how to do things on the job. Other times I will think "wow, the powers at be are as smart as I am...and are implementing something like the kind of strategy I would have thought of! Awesome!"

And then I will hear a coworker complain about how irrational the procedure is.... forcing me to try to defend the authorities because...in that particular case the authorities...think the same way I think...gosh darn it."



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20 Sep 2023, 6:02 pm

Weight Of Memory wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
I guess you're not a fan of civil disobedience, or of attempts being made to change rules?


You can obey rules while also attempting to change them.

Civil disobedience is one way to attempt to change rules, and there are many forms of civil disobedience.

Boycott to your heart's content.

I strongly dislike roadside sign-waving. I consider it a form of harassment.

Civil disobedience rarely works. It takes a disproportionate response from the other side and even then, it just raises awareness.

Boycotts are the most consistent way of bringing change, shining assuming that you have enough support to make an impact. That was the thing that ultimately ended Apartheid.



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20 Sep 2023, 7:28 pm

MatchboxVagabond wrote:
Weight Of Memory wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
I guess you're not a fan of civil disobedience, or of attempts being made to change rules?


You can obey rules while also attempting to change them.

Civil disobedience is one way to attempt to change rules, and there are many forms of civil disobedience.

Boycott to your heart's content.

I strongly dislike roadside sign-waving. I consider it a form of harassment.

Civil disobedience rarely works. It takes a disproportionate response from the other side and even then, it just raises awareness.

Boycotts are the most consistent way of bringing change, shining assuming that you have enough support to make an impact. That was the thing that ultimately ended Apartheid.


But in order for a boycott to happen, people need to first become aware of the problem. Civil disobedience can contribute to that.


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MatchboxVagabond
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21 Sep 2023, 6:48 am

Benjamin the Donkey wrote:
MatchboxVagabond wrote:
Weight Of Memory wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
I guess you're not a fan of civil disobedience, or of attempts being made to change rules?


You can obey rules while also attempting to change them.

Civil disobedience is one way to attempt to change rules, and there are many forms of civil disobedience.

Boycott to your heart's content.

I strongly dislike roadside sign-waving. I consider it a form of harassment.

Civil disobedience rarely works. It takes a disproportionate response from the other side and even then, it just raises awareness.

Boycotts are the most consistent way of bringing change, shining assuming that you have enough support to make an impact. That was the thing that ultimately ended Apartheid.


But in order for a boycott to happen, people need to first become aware of the problem. Civil disobedience can contribute to that.

Not usually. Often what you get is people that just think the status quo is fine and that the people getting in trouble deserve it. Civil disobedience mostly only works if you've got a clearly and obviously disproportionate response to the point where the general public recognizes that there's a wrong.

In other words, if you're not being beaten or attacked with dogs and fire hoses, you're probably not going to make much progress in terms of public sentiment by going the civil disobedience route. You're more likely to just create a bunch of super-foes that are dug in about not giving in.



funeralxempire
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21 Sep 2023, 6:56 am

MatchboxVagabond wrote:
Not usually. Often what you get is people that just think the status quo is fine and that the people getting in trouble deserve it. Civil disobedience mostly only works if you've got a clearly and obviously disproportionate response to the point where the general public recognizes that there's a wrong.

In other words, if you're not being beaten or attacked with dogs and fire hoses, you're probably not going to make much progress in terms of public sentiment by going the civil disobedience route. You're more likely to just create a bunch of super-foes that are dug in about not giving in.


That's not entirely true. Prior to the end of marijuana prohibition there were often 'smoke-ins' held as a form of protest.

One of the primary things they did was help show that a wide sampling of the population smoked pot and favoured ending prohibition.

That's not the entirety of how that legal situation changed, but it certainly contributed.


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28 Sep 2023, 12:19 pm

I sometimes went out of my way to break a rule simply becuase I didn't like the person who made it.


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06 Oct 2023, 2:02 pm

in the army i was surrounded by higher-ranking slavish rule followers, and i hated that. in retrospect a good number of those brassholes had aspie traits at the very least.



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06 Oct 2023, 10:52 pm

Legal rules, unless they would require immoral behavior, I follow. It makes things easier. I don't need legal complications.

Work rules, I followed. Some were silly. Some were even counter-productive. But they were paying me money to work there. I figured I could "play the game" and go home and do what makes sense there and not worry about how dumb things were at work.

Social rules are so random and arbitrary, I just do what makes sense. I try to treat everyone with respect. When I can help someone, I do. Otherwise, I just steer away from social situations whenever practical. Too much of a minefield there.


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06 Oct 2023, 11:52 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
MatchboxVagabond wrote:
Not usually. Often what you get is people that just think the status quo is fine and that the people getting in trouble deserve it. Civil disobedience mostly only works if you've got a clearly and obviously disproportionate response to the point where the general public recognizes that there's a wrong.

In other words, if you're not being beaten or attacked with dogs and fire hoses, you're probably not going to make much progress in terms of public sentiment by going the civil disobedience route. You're more likely to just create a bunch of super-foes that are dug in about not giving in.


That's not entirely true. Prior to the end of marijuana prohibition there were often 'smoke-ins' held as a form of protest.

One of the primary things they did was help show that a wide sampling of the population smoked pot and favoured ending prohibition.

That's not the entirety of how that legal situation changed, but it certainly contributed.


you're right...civil disobedience, got better pay and working conditions for California farm workers (Cesar Chavez), ended segregation in the American South (MLK Jr.)...and won India independence from Britain (Gandhi).

But "civil disobedience" doesnt have a damn thing to do with the topic.

Were talking about day to day rule following. Not about the topic of organized mass disobedience to a specific unjust law as a political goal. The guy who invented the later concept, Gandhi, even stated that if your gonna use civil disobedience thats all the more reason to follow laws and rules the rest of the time when you're not using a civil disobedience campaign.



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19 Oct 2023, 6:27 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
The guy who invented the later concept, Gandhi, even stated that if your gonna use civil disobedience thats all the more reason to follow laws and rules the rest of the time when you're not using a civil disobedience campaign.


Bingo. If you normally follow the rules then it actually means something when you don't.

Also good advice when people ask you do something, whether it's your significant other or you boss. Only applies to healthy relations though.