Do aspie's have Emapthy or not?

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That is really interesting to me because that is the kind of empathy I think I have..not just to physical pain though. I also feel that in the animals and others who show destress...especially in the animals I work with. I am wondering about the connection with ToM because I think the pain and destress is mine...I am feeling it and that is why I want it to stop in the other person or animal. I continue to have problems with this as a caregiver, (like giving them a shower or brushing their teeth even though I know they hate it). I don't know how parents have the strength to do this with kids, glad I chose not to have any. I also think that I gave one of the dogs to many treats because they wanted them and they got sick. If I don't get a grip on this I'm going to end up fired.

is this not empathy then? some people have told me it is, someone else from work told me that i have a "female intuition" (i have no idea what that means either )

and whats the difference between sympathy and empathy then, because some people on here are describing what i thought was sympathy.

Inquiring minds need to know

43 out of 80.

I'd like to know why the authors who published this scale used this scale rather than the two previously published scales on empathy that I know about, including the one painstakingly put together by Davis and published in 1980 that I link to in my "three kinds of empathy" thread. I guess I gotta read their paper.

Other empathy thread here:
three different types of empathy

The study Cognitive and Emotional Empathy and their Neurofunctional Correlates in Autism Spectrum Conditions which was presented at the International Meeting for Autism Research in London last week, distinguishes between cognitive empathy and emotional empathy.

Cognitive empathy is the ability to identify emotions in other people, to differentiate between emotions such as fear and sadness. Emotional empathy is the capacity to feel for other people.

The study found that autistics have trouble predominantly with cognitive empathy, and in tests score lower than neurotypicals in respect of cognitive empathy, but not emotional empathy.

The reason a parent can tell a child to do something they know the child doesn't want to do, and which the child hates, is because they do so from a position of "authority". This is from the psychological nature of the Parent-Child relationship, in which "parent" and "child" are unconscious roles assumed by the participants. This role of "parent" is one that commands obedience from the "child", and does not normally allow for the presence of empathy. And this role of "child" is one that determines wether to give in to the "parent's" desires (compliance) or the child's desires (rebellion). You can see the dynamic of this relationship at work just by watching parents shopping with children at the supermarket, to give one example. It is also at work in some other situations, including between some criminals and the police trying to catch them!

There is another role: "Adult" or "Grown-up", in which the participant acts with equality, respect and assertiveness to others and oneself, i.e. they do not take the role of "parent" around a "child" or the role of "child" around a parent, neither of which allow accomodation of (self-)respect or (self-)assertion. It is in the role of "Adult" that participants can most easily feel and express empathy. Sometimes you can see parents and children acting very much like mature grownups - they have taken the role of "adult" and are acting accordingly.

Note: Parent / Child roles are not bad or good in themselves, and are sometimes necessary. But development of the Adult role is important to the psychological (and perhaps spiritual) development of oneself into a person worthy of equality.

Also: I interpreted this material from a form of psychoanalysis called "Transactional Analysis". I understand the details given here to not allow for Neurological Differences - on other words, the roles taken by Aspies and Auties in their psychological relationships could be slightly different from those detailed here (Though I know no evidence to support this, yet).

On that empathy quiz, when I took it just now, I got 65 out of 80 (a number of the questions had to do with things like risk taking and such that don't really having to do with social stuff or empathy or perceiving others' emotions). However, when I took that quiz a few years ago before I was in the current environment, I got below 20.

I've always been pretty in tune with the emotions of others. The thing is, when you read body language differently (or, when it comes to eye expressions, if you don't make eye contact or look much at the face), then you don't get a lot of the subliminal information. I tend to get this equivalent information from tone of voice and the body language of people I've known for long enough to have a sense for it.

But I don't think empathy should be defined by this. I mean, if you had a person type, for instance, that they got picked to represent their school in a spelling bee, likely you'd think that they'd be happy about it. But without the emotional information or other background, you can't tell if they're happy they got picked or upset about having the pressure of representing the school and of performing well. You don't conclude that the person who says "congratulations" is being insensitive and unempathetic when they lack that information.

P.S. - I just took the AQ test again, and whereas I used to score highly on it, just now I scored 30 out of 100, which is much lower than when I took this quiz a few years ago (I am also pretty obviously autistic with stims, and am disabled and have difficulties with speech and daily living stuff). This despite being diagnosed by a team in elementary school and now undergoing extensive testing and appointments with autism specialists, and they're trying to reclassify me as Autistic Disorder rather than Asperger. Who'd have predicted that one? Just goes to show: can't always rely on the tests and what the "experts" say. Some offer valuable information, and even of this it should be evaluated on individual basis, but also should be skeptical of many people called autism specialists.

I'm keenly aware of what other people are feeling, but I don't always know the best way to respond to it. A lot of times, it's precisely my awareness of their feelings that paralyzes me. I get overwhelmed.

In fact, that's one of the reasons it's taken me so long to realize I have Asperger's (besides knowledge of the syndrome): I tend to absorb the psychological energy of those around me. If I spend a lot of time around a bipolar person, I turn bipolar, for example.

In large groups, I'm paralyzed by all the different feelings I'm picking up on.

I try to express sympathy with people in a way that *I* think it should be expressed, but it isn't how NTs think.

So, even though, inside, I *am* feeling deeply for people, because of my external expression, they mistake it for aloofness and self-centeredness.

15 out of 80 - ugh!! !! !

Other people must find me really cold!

But actually I think I'm like you, Silke - analytical rather than empathetic. You explained that really well.

Last edited by shopaholic on 27 May 2008, 3:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Wait... now that I think about this more, what exactly are we measuring here?!

Grab the average NT, who has a every reason to believe that a randomly selected person probably thinks and feels just like him (another NT). Then ask him if he feels empathy for that person. Well duh, of course he does.

Now grab an Autistic, who is used to being surrounded by people who think and feel in a way that's alien to him. Then ask him to recognize a random stranger's emotions as just like his. Gee, he probably feels that the random person is a bit alien.

When I'm around other Autistics, I don't have these alleged empathy problems. I actually feel like I'm surrounded by people who experience the world much like I do. So I recognize, appreciate, and share another autistic's emotions quite readily!

I suppose that because autistics can't easily identify with what Joe Shmoe NT is feeling, our empathy is defective? But when Joe Shmoe NT doesn't understand what an autistic is feeling... this is ALSO our fault?! Let's strand an NT on an island full of autistics and see how HIS empathy works, eh?

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Last edited by Sorenna on 31 May 2008, 10:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

From my own memory growing up, i know that, for me, any identification of emotions in others is the result of experience plus teaching and usually requires verbalization on the part of the sufferer, or i have to witness the actual painful (or happy) event. When my elders worked to teach me empathy (they were a wise bunch to know to do that without all the info we have here), they would take me back through my mental video tape to a time when i had similar terrible or wonderful feelings as the person who required empathy. As i've lived and suffered more hurts and pains and highs i have built up a large 'database' of empathy. If i have been through anything that brought on similar feelings, emotional or physical, i can bring it up for myself in my imagination and relate, even feel it if it was extreme enough. I still do not usually notice on my own most non-verbal queues that someone is hurt or ecstatic unless they are incredibly obvious like tears streaming or loud squealing, in fact i often mistake hurt for anger. If someone verbalizes to me that there is something going on and i learn verbally what it is, i can pull up my store of feelings and usually have a close match, but not always. Maybe by the time i'm 60 i'll have the entire set.

You are SO not alone here

My father died a couple of years ago, and I didn't grieve. My primary emotion was awkwardness because everyone expected me to be sad. I cried only once, and that was just because my mom was crying and I felt bad for her. And even that felt fake, like I was acting out a scene expected of me. She even brought it up with me later, asking me if I was actually sad when I was crying, and I had a hard time explaining that I was only crying because she was crying, and also because I felt I should.

The not missing people thing, too. I love my mom so much it's scary, but I don't actually need to talk to her. I spent a year in Japan and only called home twice, and once was because I needed some papers faxed over. I think the other was to tell her when I was coming home. In fact, once, my niece complained about my lack of contact and I said almost exactly the same thing you said there, that I don't need to talk to someone every day to remember that I love them.

I don't need to, and I don't want to, and that has spelled death for almost every close relationship I've had. It seems like a lot of people DO need frequent contact to remember/believe that you love them, but it's a level of interaction that I can't comfortably maintain.

lol, i scored 26 out of 80

Your Empathy Quotient (EQ) is 22 out of 80

I do not understand how most of those qustion are related to empathy

This is what I wanted to post here (in case someone else hadn't yet put link to it here), since I just read it & thought it was good stuff (unbundling, taking apart, unpacking a conflated concept).
Gestalt thread on the subject ("AS, Alexithymia, and Empathy"):
http://asdgestalt.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=2178
Which began with this link
http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic/id/31400/title/

Asperger’s_syndrome_may_not_lead_to_lack_of_empathy_
(Had to split up the above link in half because it was stretching the page when left intact).
To which I wrote:
My comment is mere speculation-I may be misinformed, since I don't know all the details of various studies.

If one sees reaction but not what triggered it (or the trigger doesn't make sense to observer), then one might not have "sympathetic" or "empathic" response in oneself. If one sees another reacting to comprehendable stimuli, that accord with one's own response patterns, one might be more inclined to react to what befalls another person. A face (or evidence of emotional state) by itself may be insufficient to invoke same reaction in me without having the entire scenario/chain of events available for me to follow along with (and possibly reach similar outcome/conclusion/resulting emotional state).

Someone just smiling or scowling is likely to confuse me-without my having notion of why (in response to what), I'm less likely to absorb/reflect that reaction (vicariously). If someone's responding to an offense (according to him/her) that doesn't bother me, I'm unlikely to "connect" or have corresponding/similar reaction to that person. Someone reacting to stimuli that I feel similarly towards is much more likely to elicit a congruent reaction in me.

I use term "control" person to indicate the "NT" or "normal" person (in contrast to the person with ASD, who is considered to be so different/unusual), however the researchers define it for purpose of studies.
So one issue is lack of (or insufficient) context/background (and, were I provided with those things, I might seem more similar to the "control" person). Other issue is lack of overlapping priorities/thresholds (in which case, you just have to find something that I do consider significant/worthy of strong response & I'll react similar to "control" person).

Thoughts ?
Next in same thread, "hesperus" posted this study-
http://www.socialbehavior.uzh.ch/teachi ... k_2007.pdf
To which I commented:
Thanks, it was good reading (though I always get confused by the statistical measurements).
There were some good lines in it-on pg.2 of article:
"Behaviors relevant to autism, such as asking inappropriate questions, represent the antithesis of conformation to societal norms. As a consequence, individuals with AS may get lower scores on empathy questionnaires, but these lower scores may simply reflect answer patterns that are less biased by social desirability rather than reflecting actual deficiencies in empathy."
(Italicization & bolding are mine).

Also, the speculation that ASD (low "cognitive" empathy & high "emotional/affective empathy) could be "opposite" of psychopathy/sociopathy (having high "cognitive" empathy & low "emotional/affective" empathy) was certainly thought-provoking, unconventional, and "outside the box".

I borrow the above as an addendum to my answer. Maybe a study of ASD parents of ASD and NT children would be eye-opening. I am just that, and i noticed a difference in 'connection' or 'feel' with each of my children right from birth. My NT felt, from the first moment, somehow distant and not 'with me' and though i adore her and we are very close, that feeling has never left. Now that she is older, she has acknowledged it also. The opposite applies to my Aspie. Being with him felt, from the first, like 'being comfortable in my own skin'. I always thought it was just a gender and/or personality thing, but maybe not? I think i'll take a poll on it.