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Danielismyname
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10 Aug 2008, 10:33 am

Tahitiii wrote:
For the first time on this site, I don't understand the above statement. It's not even an argument -- I just don't get it.


You said the test was rubbish, and that you implied care and empathy were directly related (they're indirectly related, but that's it). IIRC, you scored 40, which would put you around "normal", so I asked if you could feel the emotions of others when you directly haven't experienced what they've been through, but just by being around them.

If you scored 40 [or 35], and you still can't put yourself in someone else's shoes, nor can you feel the emotions of those around you just by looking at them, the test would then be flawed.

It's a simple query to test the validity of the test itself.



Tahitiii
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10 Aug 2008, 10:46 am

This topic in general just reminded me of an old movie.

Does anyone remember "The Jerk"?

It starts with, "I was born a poor black child."

As a young adult, he heard some strange, new music on the radio and realized that he was adopted and white.
He then left his loving family in the swamp (or whatever).
He set out to find himself in this strange new world and redefine his whole existence.

Maybe I'm reinventing the wheel here.
I'm just an ugly duckling.


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trgd__15
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10 Aug 2008, 4:36 pm

Your score: 7
0 - 32 = low (most people with Asperger Syndrome or high-functioning autism score about 20)
33 - 52 = average (most women score about 47 and most men score about 42)
53 - 63 is above average
64 - 80 is very high
80 is maximum

Not really surprising that I got a low number.



CelticRose
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10 Aug 2008, 4:56 pm

I got a 22.

I think this test is seriously flawed. It makes no distinction between learned behavior and instinctive behavior. I'm sure I would have scored much lower when I was younger. A lot of questions had more to do with typical Apie behavior than with empathy.


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RainSong
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10 Aug 2008, 4:58 pm

I scored a 7. I expected to score a bit higher, but there we go then.

Daniel - I didn't get how the one question pertained - the one about the rollercoaster. Couldn't one be nervous regardless of whether or not there are others there?

Tahitiii wrote:
Like I said, the person who created this test is hopelessly confused doesn't understand his own question. Garbage in -- garbage out.


Are you always this angry? You seem rather pissed off, instead of being logical. Most of those questions did make sense in context with empathy. I can't figure out why you respond like this. (What you are doing is rigid thinking though, which is not about the box, regardless of whether you're "out" or "in" it.)


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Tahitiii
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10 Aug 2008, 6:58 pm

RainSong wrote:
Are you always this angry? You seem rather pissed off, instead of being logical.
Lately, yes. There's a lot going on right now. And by the way, did you know that one can be extremely angry and remain logical? The idea that anger = crazy is another NT fairy tale. Maybe THEY can't separate it, but I can. Actually, it is helping me to pull out of my NT-imposed stupor. Being a doormat and a community punching bag was a bad idea all along. It never did pay off.

And like I said, my complaint about the test is that it makes no sense.
The author of that test is asking too many unrelated questions at once.
Apples + oranges = bad math.

Tahitiii wrote:
I have a better idea.
Let's make a test of English language fluency and give it to a bunch of native Spanish speakers.
We will ask no questions about age or experience with English.
Then we will conclude that anyone who receives a low score is "ret*d."

That makes sense, right? English fluency is normal and instinctive and just "common sense," right? So anyone who doesn't use it must be ret*d, right?


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marshall
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10 Aug 2008, 7:01 pm

I got 30.

I think I empathize more with strong emotions but much less with weak emotions. Does that make any sense?



Aalto
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10 Aug 2008, 9:40 pm

slowmutant wrote:
Aalto wrote:
18. I'm quite upset, but the fact of that matter is that I have a very every-man-for-himself approach to socialising.


Every-man-for-himself is not socializing. It's the opposite of socializing.


An every-man-for-himself approach to socialising. Aiming to talk about what's going on of my side of things while only consciously choosing to entertain the goings-on with the other. Things like that.



Tahitiii
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10 Aug 2008, 10:44 pm

Aalto wrote:
An every-man-for-himself approach to socializing. Aiming to talk about what's going on of my side of things while only consciously choosing to entertain the goings-on with the other. Things like that.
I think I get it. That sounds pretty good to me. I've been going to the opposite extreme, letting people blather on about mindless drivel that doesn't interest me, worrying about THEIR fragile egos, consoling THEM in their petty little dramas, letting them drone on about who THEY really are, letting them knee-jerk and assume whatever they like about me... I think it's my turn to talk for a change. Hey -- I'm alive, too. A balance would be nice, but ya can't have everything.


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Aquamarine_Kitty
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10 Aug 2008, 11:02 pm

Your score: 10
0 - 32 = low (most people with Asperger Syndrome or high-functioning autism score about 20)
33 - 52 = average (most women score about 47 and most men score about 42)
53 - 63 is above average
64 - 80 is very high
80 is maximum


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RainSong
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10 Aug 2008, 11:47 pm

Tahitiii wrote:
And by the way, did you know that one can be extremely angry and remain logical? The idea that anger = crazy is another NT fairy tale. Maybe THEY can't separate it, but I can.


I did, as a matter of fact. But I'm not seeing much logic from you; I'm seeing knee-jerk reactions and not stopping to think past your initial reaction. That is not logical.

Tahitiii wrote:
And like I said, my complaint about the test is that it makes no sense.
The author of that test is asking too many unrelated questions at once.
Apples + oranges = bad math.


It actually does though. Many of those questions pertain to empathy; on almost all of them, I can see where the author is coming from. And either way, tests can be made so that "useless" questions that are meant to break up the tone don't count. It's fairly easy to do; I've done it myself, and it's year since I've fooled around with coding.

Your example of the language test is apples and oranges, however. You are taking a learned trait (language) and applying it to a test which is meant to measure a skill that most nuerotypical people are born with. I know a gentleman who works with (generally tween) people on the autism spectrum, and he says that it really is just completely natural for those who are not on it. Language, especially a foreign one, is not something that one is born with.

I suspect you're taking the word "ret*d" with a big hunk of emotion as well. In a clinical sense, it's not offensive. Just lately people seem to want to make it such.


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zen_mistress
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10 Aug 2008, 11:50 pm

It says that 80 is the highest score possible. I wonder what a person who gets that score would be like.... they would almost have no boundaries.


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Danielismyname
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11 Aug 2008, 12:39 am

RainSong wrote:
Daniel - I didn't get how the one question pertained - the one about the rollercoaster. Couldn't one be nervous regardless of whether or not there are others there?


Probably a filler question, as it doesn't imply that there's others around you coercing you to do such.

zen_mistress,

My mother scored in the high seventies; she's quite logical, but she can really feel the emotions of others around her (she gets upset every time she watches the news, and she can barely watch horror movies).



Tahitiii
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11 Aug 2008, 2:23 am

Sorry, I’ve worked with a lot of handicapped populations (long ago, it’s all outdated) and I was using the word, "ret*d" in the clinical sense.

The potential to learn a language is inborn, but it also requires exposure/ opportunity/ education or whatever. No matter how good or bad your innate ability is, you have to pick it up somewhere. And even if you stink at it, you will probably get better at it with experience and time. English itself is not inborn.
People who haven't spent much time thinking about language DO unconsciously assume that a foreigner must be of low intelligence. If a Spanish person doesn’t understand me, it’s because he’s a dummy. If I don’t understand him, it’s because he’s a dummy.

The "lack of empathy" assumption uses the same kind of logic as my language test.
A lot of their assumptions are off because THEY lack empathy and imagination.

empathy = Identification with and/or understanding of another's situation, feelings, and motives.

My score was 40. Without knowing my age, background, or anything about me, that tells you nothing.

The “empathy quotient” test attempts to measure one’s empathy for the majority culture.

Imagine turning it around and putting an NT on a planet full of Aspies, from birth. Don’t forget to misread him at every turn. Deny that his feelings and abilities exist and/or punish him for showing them, on a daily basis. Make sure that he understands that he is a weirdo because he doesn’t get it. Those who learn to speak at all will be confused and will have underdeveloped personalities. Now, use an Aspie-made test to evaluate this “NT” person for his empathic abilities in an Aspie majority. And pretend you’re surprised when he spits in your eye.

Figuring out what's going on inside another person is too much a mix of communication skills, imagination, experience, caring, and who knows what else, all of which have variables of their own.

NTs are not born with it. They have to learn it somewhere. They learn majority-style empathy because it's everywhere and it's easy. Aspies can learn it, but they dont have an equal opportunity. Society spends so much time trying to deny and crush the kid's basic nature that it's hard to figure out himself, let alone someone else.

Adult NTs are not as good at it as they think they are. They read me wrong every time.
Even the NT shrinks are not vary smart and make a lot of unreasonabe assumptions, based on their own limited experience.

If I don't instinctively understand you, it's my fault.
If you don't instinctively understand me, it's my fault.
If I get frustrated with our inability to communicate, it's my fault.
If you get frustrated with our inability to communicate, it's my fault.


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zen_mistress
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11 Aug 2008, 5:29 am

Danielismyname wrote:

zen_mistress,

My mother scored in the high seventies; she's quite logical, but she can really feel the emotions of others around her (she gets upset every time she watches the news, and she can barely watch horror movies).


I also get very upset while watching the news, and horror movies. But I never used to, it is only over the past couple of years, because of stuff that has happened that made me view things differently. Even with that, it's still not NT empathy, there is a sort of detachment to the empathy I have developed... I still view people as another species to me but I am not as indifferent to them as I was when I was younger.

Quote:
Tahitii wrote:
empathy = Identification with and/or understanding of another's situation, feelings, and motives.


I dont agree entirely with this. You can have an objective understanding of all this. To me empathy is a sort of emotional reaction that a person has that they cant control or predict, it just happens. I think it is a kind of projection of one's own experience and situation onto another person, which happens automatically. It happens through mirror cells.

My brother had virtually the same opportunities as me, but yet he was NT and developed the social skills and I ended up with a deficit. It was just the genetic lottery that caused my lack of social skills, not an unfair society.


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Dragonfly_Dreams
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11 Aug 2008, 8:17 am

Your score: 5
0 - 32 = low (most people with Asperger Syndrome or high-functioning autism score about 20)
33 - 52 = average (most women score about 47 and most men score about 42)
53 - 63 is above average
64 - 80 is very high
80 is maximum