How to Argue with an NT

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I vote for the later. And note that I have almost always worked with the later. Which would be why I don't like the assumption that all NT's are power/emotional debaters. I don't believe that to be true.

This is what I've told my son

I agree with you completely here.

A gift with burdens, granted, but still a gift.

zen mistress, I thought you were right in the way you acted. And I'm NT. While you did make the situation uncomfortable for everyone, I also suspect that the NT boss actually learned something. Not that he would ever have admitted that to you, but his reaction indicated that he did realize he had crossed a line. A good boss IS sensitive to ALL the likely points of view. It is an important skill if you want to be an effective manager. Perhaps you could have taught him that lesson more tactfully but, still, he needed to know it.

Last edited by DW_a_mom on 22 Aug 2008, 1:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Thanks for breaking it down so well!

I just too annoyed to have the patience for that, lol.

The thing to note is, if someone argues with a style like that, which I find so negative and off-putting, I may allow them to THINK they have won just to shut them up. But they haven't actually won anything. So the question becomes, when is such a style ACTUALLY effective, v. when is such a style only APPEARING to be effective because the speaker isn't aware of the subtle differences between an actual win, and a faked one?

OK, that is going to be far too complex for me to spend time on here, but it is worth being aware of, that NT's may sometimes allow you to think you've won when you haven't actually done so.

I want to thank you for sharing.

But there are plenty of nerdy odd people without Aspergers who are met with the same type of disapproval. This isn't a problem that strictly afflicts those with AS, I speak from experience.

I don't mind the small talk when they really want to talk to me.

I just don't like them going through the motions because they think I need some kind of word from them. I don't care if they don't talk to me if they really don't want to.

LoL! That description fits me to a Tee!! ! I am not trolling, I have enough insight to recognize myself when I read descriptions. That description describes how I conduct myself!

Just to clarify, the quote is actually from JohnNorum. I quoted it in a post, above, but did not write it.

But I did enjoy you recognizing yourself in the description My son has his moments like that, and he would admit it, too, lol.
It isn't necessarily a bad thing, to be that way. It's all about context, isn't it? If you can recognize the perception, you can also control the context.

No one understands why I like my car so much, but it's cheap and it goes, so I'm happy. I saved it from being pointlessly being crushed.

Thank you, I kind of regret now being so hot headed. I think I didnt manage to communicate the point I really wanted to to him. which is that rabbits have nervous systems and feel pain and have awareness of pain and other things, and just because it is a rabbit, not a human, doesnt mean it should be treated in this way. But I am not sure he really learned this at all....

how may times I haven't heard "grow up" or "get real" or "you're so childish" (ageism). What is growing up?
I can be sometimes called to "talk like an old woman" or I am moaning too much. I have these contrasts in me, but basically I am still an 8 year old inside, who reads books on history and whatever scientific book or a book where I have to use my intellect.
Hehe, what a contrast, that's why NT's don't expect a childish behaviour or what they define as childish behaviour because I can be so intellectual?

Emoters??? What does that mean, how much more are we going to label others, just because they label us? I am an Aspie and I react most of the time emotionally when I am angry, I scream (don't scream at me, I hear ll the time), screaming was part of normal conversation in my Flemish background and dysfunctional family, I never heard or seen anything else. Then I start to stutter (in any language), I feel pain in my sciatica nerve (the emotional belt around the waist is stiffening up), I get angry, I can kill. That is emotion. Is that normal, is that the part I have to cut out to 'grow up'?

Had I grown up (but I refused as a child, didn't like the (NT?) adult world) I would have been an normal NT, I don't think so. But not keeping my feet on the ground definiltely secured me into the arts world.

Last edited by Loborojo on 22 Aug 2008, 5:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I did some quick editing because there was a quote pyramid. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

And now for a personal question:

Do you want to change this style into the more humble one, stick with the existing one, or develop it into an even more self-assured pushy one?

Or is your opinion that it is bad/unwanted/impossible to have such ambitions? Maybe the most important factor of successful argumenting is that one is satisfied and secure in the role one chooses, instead of trying to change it too much.

When I am stressed out I go into that mode automatically. It's more apparant when stess is involved. That's why I drive my family nuts. What I really wish is that I were a robot that feels nothing and can just keep pushing along without ever feeling discouraged. Life would be much easier if I were.

Of course I don't think such ambitions are bad because I feel a sense of relief when I go into my arrogant know-it-all lecturing mode. Other people hate it. That's the problem! If they didn't mind me being that way I would be like that all the time. I think men can get away with it easier than I can. A woman who acts like that is just seen as a pushy, selfish b***h.

Most people think they are logical. Just like most people seem to believe they are thinking intelligent people. Ironically it is my personal experience that the least logical people think they are extremely logical. They have emotionally decided they are logical and can't quite understand what it means anyways. It is the people with some logic or lots of logic that understand where they fit on the spectrum if that makes sense. Ie they can figure out a logical argument when presented to them as opposed to getting mad and reasserting their version of reality over top.

But to answer your question: Yes. The NTs that anyone with Autism will have the most problem with are the people with below average IQs. ie the stupid ones. All NTs are not stupid. I know quite a few that are very smart. I know a lot more savant Aspies than NT savants in the programming field though. Although that depends on where you define the line of Autism. Is simply avoiding eye contact an Autistic diagnosis?

Simple test. Name someone possibly more logical than you. If you can't you probably aren't logical. That is actually a trick question because a truely logical person would find 100 ways someone else could be more logical than them and thus couldn't answer the question. They would have to leave open the possibility someone was more logical thay they.

ttyl

PS In fairness I may be savant or mostly deal with savants. Thus non savant Aspie's experience may vary.

PPS Mocking actually came from a Scott Adams blog entry. It is in his book and describes arguments. He said no one ever changes their mind by facts. Mocking he finds effective. I can look it up if required since I am paraphrasing.