Does my 12 year old girl have psychological issues?

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I directly refuted you in your previous post.

I'm not saying everything you're saying is false or that you're crazy, but I am saying that in my personal opinion you're spreading a lot of really extreme views that in reality might not work for a lot of people and could cause more harm than good.

So until you can provide proof that the FDA doesn't test psychiatric drugs, I am going to believe you're "blowing this out your tail pipe". In fact here's another article detailing some problems with the current testing that the FDA does for psychiatric drugs: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 01576.html
It appears that the leader of the psychiatric division of the FDA is Dr. Thomas Laughren http://articles.latimes.com/2008/apr/14 ... heffects14

I'm not saying there aren't problems in the system. I'm sure there are many, and I'm sure there are many drugs with horrible side effects that are probably over-prescribed. But again, that's not the norm, that's the exception. You don't hear about the good things that happen. You hear about the bad things because they get more newspaper sales and website hits.

Okay, after having read all five pages of this thread this is what I want to say:

I think epilepsy is very likely causing the problems including whatever voices or other sensory hallucinations she is experiencing.

I myself do not put much stock in psychiatrists or meds but that is just because they have not helped me personally; I acknowledge they can and do help other people when used appropriately.

And I do actually have a study showing scientifically in a clinical studies that vitamins can help mood disorders and mental illness. I have no personal experience with this and can't say if they do or not but I believe it is possible, which is why I have ordered the EMP Plus mentioned in this article to try to treat some things medicine has never been able to help. I won't be let down if it doesn't work; I simply think it's worth a try. Whatever the outcome, is the outcome. I am just going to try and see what happens.

This is from the website of EMP Power, there are a few others posted there as well but I'm just going to paste this one.

By the way I too have studied psychology for years. And I thought your posts in general were quite helpful, Tom, even if I don't share your love of psychiatrists and the industry they work in. I don't hate them like some do; I simply don't find them useful for myself.

Improved Mood and Behavior During Treatment with a Mineral-Vitamin Supplement: An Open-Label Case Series of Children

Journal of Child and Adolescent Psychopharmacology
Volume 14, Number 1, 2004

Read the abstract on the National Library of Medicine website or read the editorial review of the actual Journal article below.

Summary of Case Report

A new clinical trial of EMPowerplus, this time involving nine children with mood and behavior problems, has proven again the veracity of Truehope’s claims that its product is helping people with bipolar and other psychiatric disorders. The study, supported in part by the Alberta Children’s Hospital Foundation and carried out by researchers from three Alberta universities, determined the nine participants showed improved behaviour during the trial and higher scores on standard psychiatric tests.

“In this open-label study of a broad-based nutrient treatment (EMPowerplus), the results demonstrated statistically significant improvements in mood and anxiety in the nine children who completed the trial,” the researchers noted in a recent issue of the Journal Of Child And Adolescent Psychopharmacology.

The trial was carried out by doctors Bonnie Kaplan of Paediatrics and Community Health Sciences, University of Calgary and the Behavioural Research Unit, Alberta Children’s Hospital (ACH); Jennifer Fisher, Department of Psychiatry, University of Calgary; Catherine Field of the Department of Agricultural, Food and Nutritional Science, University of Alberta in Edmonton; Bryan Kolb, Ph.D, of the Department of Psychology, University of Lethbridge; and Susan Crawford, MSc., a colleague of Kaplan at the ACH. Their results showed improved scores when the children, aged eight to 15, were tested for withdrawn behaviour, anxious/depressed behaviour, social problems, thought problems, attention, delinquent behavior and aggression.

“The results demonstrated statistically significant improvements in mood and anxiety in the nine children who completed the trial,” said the researchers. “Seven of the eight CBCL (Child Behaviour Checklist) scales revealed statistically significant improvements.”

Their report notes while two children experienced nausea, one of who had the flu, none discontinued because of adverse effects. Two who were taking psychiatric medication experienced moderate agitation and excitability.

This is the third such published study on Empowerplus for Dr. Kaplan who reported similar findings two years ago. “Most would agree that good nutrition is fundamental for good physical health,” the study says. “In contrast, the role of nutrition in maintaining good mental health is still a matter of considerable debate in spite of the fact that the importance of micronutrients (i.e., vitamins and minerals) for normal brain function is well established by decades of scientific research.”

The children involved – 11 began the trial, but two dropped out – had all displayed unstable mood and behavioral problems such as lengthy tantrums and explosive rage. They were clinically diagnosed with an anxiety, mood, or behavioral disorders by their referring clinicians and were on stable psychiatric medication regimens. All were physically healthy children whose families were knowledgeable about standard pharmacological treatment; nine had already tried several such medications.

The researchers note their results relied heavily on the observations of parents who “had specifically chosen an experimental nutritional supplement rather than traditional psychiatric medications.” “In the current health environment, there could be a large expectancy effect associated with the use of any natural health product,” the study says. “On the other hand, most of these children had been through multiple treatment programs, including medications, and expectancy effects in those situations did not appear to reach the magnitude of the treatment effect documented in this study.”

If there is a note of warning sounded in the study, it concerns adverse effects caused by the interaction of the nutrients with psychiatric medication. “We have noted that many adult and child patients who have taken this nutrient supplement in combination with psychiatric medications have experienced what appear to be significant problems with interactions,” report the researchers. The manufacturer of Empowerplus recommends decreasing psychiatric medication when using its product. “Despite significant concerns about safety and clinical stability, this has appeared to us to be a reasonable approach,” say the researchers. “The nature of the interaction is difficult to specify, but it appears that the supplement amplifies the effect of psychiatric medications.”

In fact, the three children taking medication who completed the trial were able to decrease their dosage and still benefit from the Empowerplus. “Based on these data and previous research, it appears that nutritional supplementation may exert a stabilizing effect on mood, temper, and anxiety in a manner that is relatively independent of diagnostic category,” confirms the study. “Even though the effect is nonspecific, it appears to be strong and clinically useful.”
The researchers conclude they will follow up this recent study with subsequent testing.

Well, first thing: You need to ditch the regular doctor. He is worse than useless.

Are you keeping any kind of a diary, so you can say when it all started and when it got worse?

We have a couple of interesting threads here. "If I am mean..."
http://www.wrongplanet.net/modules.php? ... 36#1737436

"Benign hallucinations?" http://www.wrongplanet.net/postxf84737-0-30.html

I don't doubt it at all. I'm not into dieties or demons, but faith in the FDA makes about as much sense. What passes for "science" these days is really just glorified superstition. Doctors believe what they want to believe. The med schools, the FDA, the CDC, the lobbyists, are looking out for big business and are not remotely concerned about your health. It's probably not a conscious conspiracy but it might as well be. Sick babies and dead trees are good for the economy... (PS: The mercury questions are not ridiculous at all. They are honest questions, gaining momentum, and deserve honest research and answers.)

Like Callista said, there's a lot of stupidity out there. And a lot of HUGE EGOS. You might or might not find a sensible doctor who knows something and is willing to share that knowledge with you. But you need to be your own (or your child's) advocate. If it doesn't make sense to you, don't trust it. If it sounds like BS, it probably is. Who is your support group? Are the grandmothers reasonably educated about such issues?

That's a thought. Find some links for a little light reading about symptoms. If the issue were Asperger's, I'd say you should turn her loose in here, and let her see how other kids describe their symptoms. I don't know where else to go for what you're describing, but it's probably out there somewhere.

Thanks for the info, very interesting. I was not aware of this "EMP". I did some quick research on it, people seem to think it works well but, alot of them are also saying they use it in conjunction with their psychiatric meds and have been able to lower their dosages. I believe I said in all this in a previous post but, maybe I didn't elaborate enough. I was not completely rejecting the a homeopathic remedy. I was just saying the results vary person to person and are questionable.

Multi-vitamins and nutrition are not the cure to alot of serious mental health issues. That statement is true, well actually there's no cure at all period but I'm using a different context of cure. I also said that nutrition and vitamins and things DO help. For some people it will clear up all their symptoms. For example, alot of people with mild depression can be treated with St. john's wort or 5-HTP(over the counter hydroxytrytophane, basically what's in turkey), vitamin b can help with chronic fatigue, ginko biloba for concentration/memory, you need certain vitamins to help produce certain neurotransmitter chemicals. So yes, as a holistic treatment, vitamins and nutrition are something that should definitely not be neglected(certain other homeopathic things are questionable).

On the other side, many people with more serious issues will not find relief of their symptoms with just nutrition, these people need psychiatric meds. Most mental health issues fall into this category(not all but a good majority). As above with what I was saying about EMP, nutrition and vitamins may help them from having to take so much of these meds.

The other thing I just want to point out is that some of the homeopathic and "natural" methods, don't think of them to be safe. Alot of people believe that "natural" means safe. It doesn't, many of these over the counter herbs, supplements, medications, etc... are not tested or standardized. They may not have consistent dosages in each capsule, the have no quality control sometimes, some of them have contaminants.

Example: In 1990 an OTC amino-acid supplement known as L-tryptophan(different but similar to 5-htp), used as a homeopathic depression treatment, was linked to an outbreak in japan of eosinophilia myalgia syndrome (EMS). There was an unknown contaminant in the supplement nicknamed "peak x". 1500 people got sick and 30 died. L-trytophan is now banned in the U.S. and many other countries.

This is just one example. This happens more frequently then you might think. Many of these homeopathic treatments also have alot of other side-effects as well as unknown long term effects. So don't discard prescription drugs on a basis of "un-safe", they're as safe as anything else...

Basically the choice is your's what you want to try. Only you know how your body feels and what will work. But don't discount psychiatry and prescription drugs. I suggest discussing everything with your doctor and coming up with a plan together. Especially if you want to try more natural treatments, your doctor can tell you if they will have adverse reactions with anything else your taking as well as other important information.

http://archpsyc.ama-assn.org/cgi/conten ... /59/10/913
use of omega 3
http://bjp.rcpsych.org/cgi/content/abstract/188/1/46

http://www.clarocet.com/referencelibrary/B-vitamins/
b vitamins

and as of 2005 the fda did not dues indepenant testing.

as i recover i am gonna bury you guys references for the validated of alternative treatment
and what psychiatry really is

Until you provide a source for that, it's opinion and speculation, not fact.

Contrary to popular belief hearing voices is not enough to get a diagnosis of schizophrenia. Schizophrenia is much more about disordered thinking, but it can vary quite a bit.

If you had read my prior post, I said they work but only sometimes in some cases........................................

Also, sometimes it's a false correlation. For example, If I give you a sugar pill(placebo) for moodiness and as it turns you were hypoglycemic not bi-polar, yeah, you're going to feel better.

Do you have schizophrenia? If so can you educate us all on it? I have heard and read such contradictory things on schizo that it might be nice to hear from a bonefide person with schizophrenia what happens or what it is like. And is it related to DID or dissociation disorders?

I know you weren't asking me but I already kind of went over this so I feel compelled to answer. I'm schizoaffective though, so I'm part schizophrenic. I can still give you a insiders view to some extent.

Let's just get the DID part out of the way. as I said before, they are completely unrelated. It's just a common mis-conception mostly due to false info in the media and movies. DID rarely is co-morbid with schizophrenia, but like anything else, yes it's possible. Maybe understanding the difference between dissociative disorders and schizophrenia will help explain. Dissociative disorders are actually related to anxiety(usually). A traumatic event occurs and as a result of the brain not being able to cope with the event or memory of it, the person experiences dissociative symptoms. It can also occur when the person is under alot of stress their mind just sort of leaves them for a while, it shuts down to reboot so to speak, mean while the body goes on functioning. This is often what happens in "dissociative amnesia". So essentially what I'm saying is dissociation is a coping mechanism for the brain under heavy stress, it's not genetic, it's a learned behavior...Ok so that gives you a rough idea of dissociative disorders.

Now schizophrenia on the other hand is genetic. It's a brain disorder. Basically the main symptoms are grossly disorganized behavior and thought patterns, paranoid or bizarre delusions, and/or hallucinations. Not all of these symptoms are always present.

Basically the best way to describe schizophrenia is this:
Imagine an old style switchboard and telephone operator where they have the wires and they have to connect the incoming call to the outgoing one. The operator in the brain frequently connects the incoming wire to the wrong outgoing call. Thus the thoughts and perceptions get misplaced and aren't organized correctly. This is the most common problem that causes delusions. What happens is when the brain organizes the thoughts it's processed in the wrong order.

For example, a guy I read about read this article about a man being arrested by the fbi in the morning. Later on that afternoon he was walking down the street on his way to ask this girl out on a date. People were tapping their foot and fingers on a table and his brain interpreted this to mean that they approved of what he was doing. On his way however he saw a couple men in suits and a helicopter flying over head, his brain connected this with his earlier experiences in the day because of the faulty processing and he believed that the people were FBI trying to stop him from asking out the girl.

That's just one example of delusional behavior resulting from the thought disorder part. I think the confusion with DID comes from the idea that sometimes schizos have behaviorral changes that almost seem like a second personality due to control from a hallucination(auditory or visual). The schizo is still completely aware of everything however and can control their actions if they want to. DID on the other hand, it's not control from a hallucination, A second personality literally takes over the body for a period of time and the person is completely unaware of whats going on and has no control. So it's similar in a way but not really...

Hope that kind of helps?

As a parent, and based on what I know, go with you instincts. If you do not believe it to be just puberty-related stuff and you believe it's not some friend you haven't met, then it probably isn't. If you can get some quiet time with her when she's in a calm state, ask her if the friend she was referring to is herself, or if you think that will break down the communication rather than open it up, ask her how her friend is and if she's worried. Sometimes kids can be honest and just don't know how to open up to their parents and need them to lead the way. Other times, they don't know how to confide in someone with something like this on a personal level. I know when I was a kid and experiencing some emotional problems at school and anguish over a troubled sibling, I held it in until I had a break-down and it was when a psychologist was brought into school to talk to me, stepped in and broke my confidence and told my mother that I began talking to her. I just didn't want to burden her with my junk and worry. But it was the best thing that could have happened. The line of communication was open and it was never judgmental and strengthened my relationship with my own mother.

But you mentioned the change in behavior. Yes, puberty brings behavioral changes, but the brain and the body is changing through our lives anyway. Has she experienced some physical or emotional trauma that you don't know about? If she is hearing voices, my first thought was a kind of trauma. You did mention neurological issues as a youngster and that will no doubt have a lasting impact, but as to what that is, I have no clue. I have epilepsy and have had it since I was 8. It was dxed at 9, probably at the non-noticeable early beginnings of my body starting to change. So, chemical changes in the body can cause things to happen. I haven't heard much on the psychological front regarding epilepsy and hearing voices, but it can cause depression and anxiety and much depends on what kind of epilepsy it is/was. One might have an aura where they perceive something that isn't real prior to a seizure. And not all seizures are visible convulsions too.