NTs DO THINGS with conversation...

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Excellent example!!

I think this theory makes a lot of sense. I am neurotypical, but I've noticed that the conversations I have differ in nature based on my closeness to the other person involved. For instance, I started college recently and when I'm talking to people whom I'm trying to get to know, conversations tend to be a lot less about substance and a lot more about establishing a connection. On the other hand, my roommate was already a close friend of mine before starting school, and our conversations are much more about an exchange of ideas. This fits in with what was said before about exchanging information being a sort of privilege in closer relationships.

However, I'm not sure I agree with what your (Greentea's) therapist said about ranting being an expression of anger toward the other person in the conversation. I've often found that ranting can make a relationship closer, because it shows you trust each other enough to disclose your emotions. Particularly, if you're ranting in a less serious way, it can be a way to forge a relationship with someone less familiar - especially if the subject of the rant is disagreeable to both of you, because it's something you have in common.

Wow Vint you are good.

It took a couple of reads of the women's restroom situation. At first I couldn't fathom why the comment would be seen as rude. But think I've figured out what they mean by it being rude.


1. The person wearing the dress in the restroom has probably made some effort to look nice that day: why else buy/make, then wear a "cute" dress? There is far more practical clothing around.

2. The dress-wearing person therefore values looking nice for some reason. It could be to the lesser degree of just looking presentable, or it could be to the extreme where their self-esteem is largely dependent on their appearance. Or who knows what else?

3. The woman's companion then states they would never wear that color. The "never" in the statement directly implies that the color of the "cute" dress is so awful to their eyes that the companion would not wear it under any circumstance.

4. If something about the dress is perceived as that awful, it means the person's effort to look good (for obtaining whatever it is they value) has failed. Result: they feel bad. Perhaps if they had higher self-confidence, the comment would not have mattered to them. Perhaps the real purpose in looking cute is to gather compliments from others to raise one's self-esteem. (Am unsure on this point, but it seems a good guess. Another reason could be to increase the chances of passing a job interview.)

5. Therefore, if the purpose of looking nice is to get compliments and admiration from others, maybe there's an unspoken rule that others are expected to have figured this out (rapidly and intuitively, unlike painstakingly figuring out the logical steps above) and either give a compliment (whether true or false), or keep quiet about their true opinions. The purpose of not telling the truth in such cases seems to be to avoid upsetting the person (for some unknown reason; see below) who wants to be successful in looking presentable/completely great that day. Everyone is expected to just know all this, so if they do not act accordingly, they are assumed to just be rude or have an agenda.


One thing I can't figure out: Is not giving your true opinion based on altruism, ie not wishing a friend to feel upset? Or is it based on social manoeuvring, ie maintaining one's position in the social hierarchy, avoiding social rejection, social climbing?

Thank you for adding an NT perspective, use_your_words. It's very rare to have an NT give us their perspective in a thread, mainly because most of the topics are just subconscious / instinctual for NTs.

i couldn't figure out the restroom/dress scenario at first. But i did, after a few readings.


Here is an example of NT women not answering me honestly.These are women i would consider friends. in the past couple of years, i have realised the subtleties of their relating are quite different to what i have expected and presumed my whole life. They are very nice people. But their way of communicating is very different from mine. Years ago i would have been deeply hurt. These days - a little older and wiser - i can have a chuckle about it, understandin that it is a stark reminder of some of the differences between me and them. THis scenario DID stretch out over a few years until my dx and the realisation that some women whose advice i asked, didn't answer honestly. in spite of my requests do so on a few occasions. And they see very little wrong with that. it is about social exchange and perhaps they assumed i should have been able to "read between the lines" regarding what they said, on the basis of their tone of voice and other cues. who knows......

when we spoke about the whole scenario later - they said that it was a case of not wanting to hurt people.
weird, and different to how i think...

Background info is that i have been grey for many years and at 46, was extremely grey haired.



AS woman 2004: Can i ask your honest opinion? i'm not too good at this kind of thing.

NT women in 12 step programs: yeah, sure...go right ahead.

As woman: Please tell me what you think honestly, ok?

NT women: yeah, we will. Of course we will.

AS woman: do you think i should dye my hair?

NT woman 1: Oh wow, i just love the grey.

NT woman 2: Oh it looks so great on you. Don;t dye it. You can have grey hair. it looks really good.

AS woman: uh...ok. do you really think so?

NT women: oh yes...yes. DON"T do a thing to it!

2 years later

AS woman 2006: I still think i might dye my hair. any views on it this year? can you give me an honest view again on what you think? you two are really good with the whole "girly thing," and i don;t get it, so i'd like your help.

NT woman 1: JUst leave it. DOn;t do a thing. YOu can carry it off SOOO easily.

NT woman2: leave it leave it LEAVE IT. IT looks really DISTINGUISHED on you. Just leave it.

AS woman; uh ok. i am still undecided , but as i run these things over with you two i'll leave it.

NT women: EXACTLY, millie. it looks really great. don't worry about being grey. it's good on you.



AS Woman 2008 (post dx and awareness of AS, and with dyed, dark hair) : Hello women. how are you?

NT WOMEN 1 and 2 in unison: OH MY GAWD...OH MY GOD....YOU LOOK SSOOOOOO FANTASTIC. GOD, what an improvement. You look ten years younger, and SO beautiful. you must feel great with it done.

AS woman: Huh? But i've been asking you for years about it. i finally made up my own mind.

NT Woman 1: We just didn't want to say.... IT just look SO much better now......!

NT woman 2: yes. Really amazing. YOu should have done it years ago......

AS woman with dyed hair; (puzzled.) oh.




true story. my story. life!

Greentea, as many others have pointed out - i must also chime in - this is a great thread.

WOW!

i'm gradually wrapping my brain around what you have said and almost have it but will require some deep reflection. no doubt you have come up with something positively brilliant.

through the insights you have presented Greentea, i realize the importance of intent combined with strategy. intent is normally transmitted through body language. but by itself, it isn't enough to achieve successful DOING type conversation. you also need to be somewhat attuned to the rules of the game and to convey how you intend to deal with the rules. you have skillfully shown us how to use the rules to DO what we need in order to survive social interaction and be treated fairly. it's like you have translated a foreign language for us. amazing. i'm still in shock [!] btw it's a very welcome shock.

by intent projected through body language i have successfully communicated the exact part of the game i will play with NTs. all this was unconscious until now. i realize why people are so much happier in my presence as opposed to the way they were before. in my complete and total unwillingness to play the social game, i was throwing a non-verbal and verbal tantrum. i believe i appeared to be a tad uncivilized. no wonder i got no respect. the only difference is that now i am willing to play but only just a very little. even that little makes all the difference in the world.

the clear establishment of boundaries and the conveyance of those boundaries is not frowned upon, rather it is respected. and for me----establishing my boundaries is only a slight variation on throwing a full body language tantrum. oh yeah and i get the rant thing. you're completely right about that. i wasn't aware [til now] that i had eliminated the rant from my social repertoire in trying so desperately to avoid offending my acquaintances. small wonder they are happier with the changes i made. [sigh]..

what we have to go through to get a fair shake in life...[sigh]

Ha! Thank You Greentea.

p.s. if you write a book on this; it's practically guaranteed best seller.

I only realised these things recently myself Greentea and you've explained them well.
When your therapist talks of expressing anger,it also occurs to me that the excessive use
of any negative or anxiety-inducing phrases can have an adverse effect on a listener,even
if they're not aimed specifically at that person.Examples of phrases that can induce anxiety
if used continually are 'I/we need to..' 'I/we must..' 'You must remind me...' 'It'll never work' and suchlike. I'm not suggesting we should suddenly become super-optimistic or be
unrealistic,but simply be aware of the underlying effect that certain phrases can have.
It may be different once you're in a closer relationship and both parties feel more free to
rant and exchange views honestly,but in everyday dealings with people it's true that things
like enthusiasm (which can be expressed by body language as much as speech) and willingness to see the other person's point of view are often more important than the actual opinions or information exchanged.