Calling Aspergers autism? why?

Post Reply New Topic

Well I don't know I would have found it insulting if my interaction with teachers consisted of....do this and I'll give you a reward but if not no reward I mean what about the unique feelings of the individual children? I mean I'm not a dog and certainly was not a dog as a child. So I guess I don't find it odd an autistic child might rebel a little when given the chance.

Oh also there is the whole thing about routine issues......maybe the change of routine the different instructor creates stresses them out so they can't complete as much work as they can normally? And what is the punishment for the suspected manipulation?

Did you make these state-of-mind attributions yourself, or did you hear them from the other teachers? As an autistic adult, I do not have the ability to make these state-of-mind attributions or do the theory-of-mind interpretations that this autistic boy is supposedly doing in the minds of the teachers.

Yes, I would find that insulting too. But consider that these children are in the severely intellectually disabled range of intelligence, and unfortunately there are major limits to what they are able to understand.



I don't find it odd either (as I mentioned NTs do it too.) We're actually the odd ones for not doing it.



Yes, that's a good point, and some of the students do act out more in response. However, that doesn't really explain why they'd be doing this behind my back. (Or many of the other examples I could list.) Also... there is no punishment. We don't have time-outs or anything like that. We simply don't give them the reward until the task is completed.



Initially, I heard them from other teachers. And I was also very skeptical about it until I actually started observing and recording their behaviors.

Also not to assume, but are you for certain these teachers are doing nothing to provoke the behavior? I mean this could be a case of quietly provoking the child and then rushing to point out when they do something 'wrong' because of it. I hate to even think that but I experienced it as a child so I tend to consider the possibility.

I mean they don't typically record all the imperfect behavior of neurotypical children........so to me it seems they are recording this more to have various negative things to point out about the kids, with proof even. Rather than to help the kids but maybe I'm just getting the wrong impression.

Yes. I've had a couple of lousy teachers too, but these are good people. The behavior recording is part of an Applied Behavior Analysis program, and while I'm not the biggest fan of ABA in general, the intention, at least, is definitely to help the kids. It is unfortunate that this is not always the intention in every school, but I do think it's come a long way in the right direction since we were growing up.

What I was lucky to eggscape as a kid:

(1) applied behavior analysis to torture me and make me miserable
(2) standard IQ test to declare me ret*d and have the teachers treat me accordingly

What I was lucky to encounter as a kid:

(1) learning a second language to teach me communication, language, speech, and verbal and abstract thinking
(2) non-verbal test for gifted and talent program to declare me gifted and have the teachers treat me accordingly

I have lived a charmed life, I think.

I've found one web page graphically showing a line with ADHD at "the beginning" and stretching out to the literal right with ASD land at the farthest point-- the implication here is that ADHD is on 'the spectrum.' There are some out there asserting that they are the same thing as milder to severe. But the executive functioning is the only common theme between the two as far as I can tell, and there are notable differences in these executive characteristics as well.

Imaging studies show a morass of messed- up- ness with ADHD. The white matter and grey matter are statistically "off" compared to the controls.
Similar with Autism.

I think if we look at them all as pervasive developmental disorders then they have common ground. They all seem to cluster together e.g., my Family has schizophrenia, but no ASD as far as I can tell.

But there seems to be both ADHD and Autism in individuals-- coexisting, than any other combo. And it seems common that siblings can be either or of these.

Here is an eggsample of some of my behaviors changing from autistic-like to Asperger-like after I learned to speak and communicate between age eight and age ten:

Before age eight, I did not have a special interest involving knowledge and comprehension, like obsessively reading and researching a topic of interest that many Asperger-like children do by that age. Instead, I had repetitive activities like lining stuff up, stacking things, and drawing pictures of the same few things that I did all the time by myself. I knew how to read, but I read for repetition of the same few things, not comprehension, and I do not remember understanding what I was reading.

It was only after I learned to speak and communicate and think verbally that I started to develop Asperger-like special interests involving knowledge and comprehension. My first special interest was in Antarctica, I think, and I am still obsessed with Antarctica. Age ten was when I started to visit the library verry merry berry often to check out books on my special interests. Meanwhile, my drawing continued with moar variety and creativity, but the lining stuff up and stacking things gave way to jigsaw puzzles that I made my parents do with me, board games and card games that I made my parents play with me, and maps that made me into the Hoooman GPS for navigation on road trips.

I think that it was as a result of learning to speak and communicate and think verbally that my special interests changed from repetitive activities to reading and researching, from completely solitary to interactive with my parents, from completely non-verbal to moar verbal, from mostly concrete at the level of physical objects to moar abstract at the level of representations of objects, and from eggstremely circumscribed with the same few things to fairly circumscribed with one topic at a time. The intensity and focus remained the same throughout, but the nature of the fixations changed over the time period that corresponded to an eggsplosion in my communication and language abilities.

The DSM-IV has a blurb about the nature of the fixations being different between autism and AS, with repetitive activities in autism and special interests in AS. Based on my eggsperience, I think that this difference may be traced to a difference in language and cognitive development. Since children with autism are behind children with AS in communication and language development and/or certain areas of cognitive development, it makes sense that an advancement in language and communication and corresponding changes in cognition would drive a switch from autistic-like fixations to Asperger-like fixations. However, I do not think that there is a fundamental difference between autistic-like fixations and Asperger-like fixations, because it has always been my intensity and focus on the fixations to the eggsclusion of eberrything else that distinguished my pursuit of my ASD fixations.

I think that the theory of lack of theory… of mind in autism surely has some deficits and I believe that the behavior described by scubasteve is truly happening in this school setting. To call and label it manipulative, I wouldn’t, but I do know, that even severely autistic people have desires and a need to get them fulfilled. Very low-functioning, nonverbal persons can for example lead a care giver towards the food they want. The equivalent behavior presented via spoken language sounds like this: “Mum, can I get a cookie? Mum, I want a cookie… [and all this presented with a whining intonation and puppy-like facial expressions]”.

Scubasteve, I also think that your example highlights very well the major problem in such a therapy or teaching tool as ABA. What severely autistic kids in ABA learn is the reward. They learn to do whatever is repeatedly required to get the reward. The lesson learned is : do [apply an action here] meaning usually imitate the teacher --> candy! The thing taught e.g. speaking, butting (this was initially a typo, but decided to leave it ) blocks in a box or brushing teeth is wired into the child’s brain only as a tool to get candy. If this is what you’ve been taught all your special education years, that is also what you'll learn. Also research has shown that students will rarely do the tasks spontaneously outside the teaching frame (read rewarding frame). Likewise neurotypical children learn and have learned this trick of the trade, all the way from B. F. Skinner to our modern schools.

If any of you have read some of my semi-biographical replies, you know I was mute for nearly two years & looked pretty much like classic severe Autism as a toddler. But now I am much more like Asperger's..
As for friends? I fit the model of accepting people if they approached me first, or were intoduced (females mostly)to me. Which I have learned is common in mild to moderate autism. It is NOT true that classical autists do not desire friends. Like problems with showing empathy, they may just not know how to make the approach.

Sincerely,
Matthew