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Tollorin
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07 Jul 2012, 7:54 pm

Callista wrote:
How in the heck can an IQ test be valid for autistic people (and people with learning disabilities and unusual brains of other sorts) when it was normed on a bunch of NTs and there are such huge differences between sub-scores?

IQ is, honestly, irrelevant. You can measure the brain by other methods, for example the vineland adaptive behavior scale, on which most Aspies score in the 50-80 range... When your average Aspie is scoring in the lowest 1% of the population on one test, and in the highest 1% of the population on another test, you can't say those tests are measuring intelligence, because they can't be measuring the same thing. What are they measuring? Probably how good you are at taking tests.

The highest 1% on one test? Which one? Is that the Raven? I guess it would mean that a good Raven score while a aspie mean nothing. :(


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corvuscorax
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07 Jul 2012, 8:31 pm

I have taken an IQ test recently and scored 124 - however, I had a lot of discrepancies around the board, with one segment quite low while others were very high.

I've always wondered the validity of such scores myself, I seem to range from 118-134 on both unofficial and more "official" tests. Some of the tests where I score lower have a lot of focus on words and I find myself scoring MUCH higher if I figure out the answers to those ones first, wait 10 seconds before inserting the answer for those questions, then doing the rest of the test normally.

I think the problem is that intelligence is such a broad concept that people really can't grapple what it is yet. I think that's why people are always making discoveries about how intelligent all these birds and primates are, because their idea of intelligence is becoming more broad. How is one supposed to measure something like that?



Tollorin
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08 Jul 2012, 2:57 pm

XFilesGeek wrote:
Tollorin wrote:
XFilesGeek wrote:
Tollorin wrote:
When I was a child some professional said I was "gifted", but a more recent test said as 82th percentile for verbal and 61th percentile for perfomance which according to this chart (http://www.douance.org/qi/tabqi.htm) make 114 IQ for verbal and 111 IQ for perfomance; I guess I grew more stupid. :(

globalwolf2010 wrote:
bizboy1 wrote:
loner1984 wrote:
Hmm well that was an interesting test in that link.

118, must have been one of my better moments today, or i just got a lot of them right by accident. They do say to choose a random one if you arent sure instead of not answering.

Definitely the exception i would get that high. i seem to recall one many years ago where i got like 70 or something. 75.


Research shows that people with Asperger's do better on Raven's matrices.


I've always been somewhat skeptical of this, myself. I've seen an article making this argument before, but it seems unlikely to me. Fully eighty percent of us have a non-verbal learning disability, and if you do, then pattern recognition probably isn't going to be your forte. Maybe it's better than other non-verbal measures, and going to the online version hosted through a legitimate website (the Danish Mensa, for what it's worth, although obviously it's still not a clinical IQ test), I did definitely score higher than is typical for me on a non-verbal measure, but still a lot lower than my typical VIQ score (although I could have gotten frustrated with it on the last four more difficult questions; they might have dragged it up to within ten points if I had gotten them right).


Well for me the score on Raven are better as a official test put at the 95-100th percentile on it (125+IQ), propably closer to 95 that 100 as a similar subtest of the WAIS 3 put me only at the 91th percentile; Guess even with those result I'm not gifted, beside having "gifted" interests. :?


The term "gifted" seems to rely just as much on whether a teacher thinks you're "special" as it does on any objective testing.

In my school, one of your parents had to either work for the school district or be really active in the PTA in order for you to be labeled "gifted." :roll:

What you describe sound like a bad gifted program. My parents are not the kind of peoples that would seek a "gifted" label only to be proud of their little "genius". (Though they were seeking a label, but one that would explain why I was different, turn out it was asperger.) And I was never been part of any gifted program anyway.

Giftedness is it's own reality, and gifted individuals got they own characteristics as well as a different way of thinking (arboreteous thinking) that sound pretty cool. http://www.gifteddevelopment.com/What_is_Gifted/characgt.htm


That's a list of arbitrary personality characteristics.

How does one objectively determine if a child is a "deep-thinker" or is "hurt easily?" They don't. Why is "giftedness" apparent from a facility with numbers, but not a facility with words? Can a "gifted" child be good at playing the flute instead of solving jigsaw puzzles?

Like I said, "giftedness" appears to be largely based on whether or not a particular professional thinks you've got a "special" personality.

You could as well say the same thing about asperger criteria if you wanted, but neither characteristic of giftedness or asperger are simply arbitary characteristics. Both are about realities with they own set of behavior.

In many case with gifted childs parents are desesperate on how to do the best for they child who is very bored in school and struggle to hide it,s intellgence from a dumbed down mass of kids more interested to worship footballers boosted with steroid that caring about learning. Most parents of gifted child simply want they child to be happy and don't care about bragging with a label.

This chart may give you a idea of the difference between child who is gifted compared to "only" bright.

http://www.bownet.org/BESGifted/brightvs.htm

Notice that it's not a set of characteristic that tend to please school.

Also, when I said that I tended toward "gifted interest" I was not kidding; things like physic, sciences in general, as well as history or other intellectual subjects are interests frequently see among the gifted population and thirst for knowledge is a common characteristic.

Another set of characteristic is the overexcitabilities of dawbrowski, but this someting delicate (To say the least.) when it come to asses giftedness on a aspie.
http://giftedkids.about.com/od/gifted101/a/overexcite.htm


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08 Jul 2012, 6:32 pm

I have no real idea, I'm most likely a savant.

When I was diagnosed at age 6, they said I did 140 on a standard test, but would have gone higher on a test designed away from language.

When I was 20 I took control of a failing restaurant and made it very high volume business. At that time I worked with the local police to lower violent crimes. Some people with Mensa observed me. After a few months they said my IQ was likely over 200, or even around 220. During that time I was told I could become governor of Florida at age 22. I like the things I did, but hated being told my IQ was so high. There are still so many simple things I am helpless at. The things I did were easy because my earliest special interests - psychology

At 27 I almost went in to the military. I had to score very high on the as ASVAB as I only had a GED. I scored in the upper half of the people that were tested that day, even higher than some with college.

The only time I ever used my ability was when I was 21. It was nice to be able to help people. Removing all violent crimes without anyone being arrested, standing up for Gay, homeless people, small business, womens rights and improved quality of life for many. Something very bad happened and being me, I could no longer carry on. I have never repeated it out of fear of all the attention that is part of that life.

Lots of people think I am stupid.....



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08 Jul 2012, 7:01 pm

I know what my tested IQ is. Got to look through my school transcripts before graduating from high school. Still remember the shock I felt seeing for the first time a picture of me at about 8 years old, looking thin and sickly.

Anyway if I'm so smart, why am I so stupid too? I can figure out things but not figure out what to do with my life or find the right job for my skills, talents, education, personality, etc. I don't get it. One job placement test result said I could be a teacher, a psychologist or a journalist. I tried the third job but didn't like it, I've done volunteer work as the first job and had fun but I'm not interested in it, and the second job would require me going back to college, which I do not want to do.

So what am I good for?

Oh, yeah! I wanna win the Lottery!



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08 Jul 2012, 8:09 pm

My highest score ever was a 137 to be perfectly honest. I have received an invitation from mensa after doing their home test but I don't see the point yet.

I don't believe in IQ tests as I've stated ont this forum before. I still think they are a superficial and inadequate way to measure someones intelligence and that is not the only objection I have against them. Besides, I think the intelligence of us human beings should not be taken that seriously. We are all as stupid as hell when it comes down to it. Just look at the state of us and anything else that lives on planet earth.

I should also mention the fact that I didn't manage to do anything useful with my intellegence so far. I don't seem to be able to find a way to put it to good use. I didn't do anything evil with it either so that evens the score I suppose. :lol:



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08 Jul 2012, 10:27 pm

Tollorin wrote:
Callista wrote:
How in the heck can an IQ test be valid for autistic people (and people with learning disabilities and unusual brains of other sorts) when it was normed on a bunch of NTs and there are such huge differences between sub-scores?

IQ is, honestly, irrelevant. You can measure the brain by other methods, for example the vineland adaptive behavior scale, on which most Aspies score in the 50-80 range... When your average Aspie is scoring in the lowest 1% of the population on one test, and in the highest 1% of the population on another test, you can't say those tests are measuring intelligence, because they can't be measuring the same thing. What are they measuring? Probably how good you are at taking tests.

The highest 1% on one test? Which one? Is that the Raven? I guess it would mean that a good Raven score while a aspie mean nothing. :(
Depends on the Aspie. I don't score as well on the Raven's test as on the WAIS.

But where you score better doesn't really matter. What matters is that all of these tests that are supposed to measure "intelligence" totally break down when people try to use them on autistic people. The scores that autistics get are scattered all over the place. When the scores are scattered like that for the same person, you can't say that the tests are measuring the same thing, and you sure as heck can't say that they're measuring "intelligence".

Say I want to measure your math ability. I give you ten different math tests that I say all measure your ability to do math. You fail two of the tests, get low scores on two more, get medium scores on three of them, get high scores on two, and get a perfect score on the tenth. With those tests, I've proven absolutely nothing about your ability to do math. In fact, I've shown that my tests cannot possibly measure "math ability", if "math ability" is a single quantity that you have either more or less of, because your scores on those tests were so wildly different. So the only thing I can conclude is that I am not measuring "math ability" with those tests--that, in fact, the tests probably measure completely different skills. I can't conclude a thing about your abilities; just about the invalidity of the tests.

So, no, it doesn't matter that an Aspie gets a good score on Raven's Progressive Matrices; it doesn't matter if he gets a bad score. It also doesn't matter if he gets a good score or a bad score on anything else, because the tests do not apply.

Stop trying to shove yourselves into boxes, folks. Forget about the numbers on your IQ test reports. "Intelligence" is something the NT world made up because they got the idea that everybody's all the same. Well, we aren't. If you think the IQ test says anything about you, you're buying into the idea that you can be judged on NT standards. Fact is, once you get away from the norm--and make no mistake, we are far away from the norm--IQ tests just don't apply. All they test about us are how good we are at taking IQ tests.


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08 Jul 2012, 10:50 pm

AnOldHFA wrote:
Some people with Mensa observed me. After a few months they said my IQ was likely over 200, or even around 220.

Weird someone from Mensa would say a thing like that, an IQ test with SD15 have a max of 195, and an IQ test with SD16 have a maximum of 201, which means if you have max, you are the only one in the world currently alive with that high IQ.

AnOldHFA wrote:
The only time I ever used my ability was when I was 21. It was nice to be able to help people. Removing all violent crimes without anyone being arrested, standing up for Gay, homeless people, small business, womens rights and improved quality of life for many. Something very bad happened and being me, I could no longer carry on. I have never repeated it out of fear of all the attention that is part of that life.

However, this comment was so far fetched I realized you were not serious about anything in your post.


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09 Jul 2012, 1:04 am

For some reason my school is testing my IQ for my IEP placement, so I know it.

The last time I took it (three months ago) I ended up at about 125.


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09 Jul 2012, 1:40 am

my iq is high enough to worry about it but not high enough to do anything about it.



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09 Jul 2012, 3:15 am

I just took the Raven and only got a 125, but my most recent wais was 169. These tests are interesting and fun, but really only have limited usefulness. While I think that you can observe some degree of correlation between scores and what "seems" to be intelligence, that is not always the case, and even when it is, it's not always a strong correlation.



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09 Jul 2012, 6:15 am

Callista wrote:
Depends on the Aspie. I don't score as well on the Raven's test as on the WAIS.

But where you score better doesn't really matter. What matters is that all of these tests that are supposed to measure "intelligence" totally break down when people try to use them on autistic people. The scores that autistics get are scattered all over the place. When the scores are scattered like that for the same person, you can't say that the tests are measuring the same thing, and you sure as heck can't say that they're measuring "intelligence".

Say I want to measure your math ability. I give you ten different math tests that I say all measure your ability to do math. You fail two of the tests, get low scores on two more, get medium scores on three of them, get high scores on two, and get a perfect score on the tenth. With those tests, I've proven absolutely nothing about your ability to do math. In fact, I've shown that my tests cannot possibly measure "math ability", if "math ability" is a single quantity that you have either more or less of, because your scores on those tests were so wildly different. So the only thing I can conclude is that I am not measuring "math ability" with those tests--that, in fact, the tests probably measure completely different skills. I can't conclude a thing about your abilities; just about the invalidity of the tests.

So, no, it doesn't matter that an Aspie gets a good score on Raven's Progressive Matrices; it doesn't matter if he gets a bad score. It also doesn't matter if he gets a good score or a bad score on anything else, because the tests do not apply.

Stop trying to shove yourselves into boxes, folks. Forget about the numbers on your IQ test reports. "Intelligence" is something the NT world made up because they got the idea that everybody's all the same. Well, we aren't. If you think the IQ test says anything about you, you're buying into the idea that you can be judged on NT standards. Fact is, once you get away from the norm--and make no mistake, we are far away from the norm--IQ tests just don't apply. All they test about us are how good we are at taking IQ tests.


Agreed



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09 Jul 2012, 6:26 am

123 from the mensa test. I had taken myself for a ret*d because I have always had trouble with simple stuff and following instructions, but turns out it was because of the AS and according to the test I'm actually more intelligent than 94% of the people. Helped me to accept myself.



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09 Jul 2012, 9:38 am

I've always believed these IQ tests only to serve as a rough guide, because one test cannot define one's complete intelligence. We all have different areas of knowledge were stronger with, for some it might even be an interest not covered in these tests, so don't take lower scores seriously. I remember taking an online one in my teens and getting over 130, who knows what I would get now. If anyone knows of a fairly accurate one I'll give it a go as I enjoy doing quizzes.



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10 Jul 2012, 1:53 am

NarcissusSavage wrote:
I just took the Raven and only got a 125, but my most recent wais was 169. These tests are interesting and fun, but really only have limited usefulness. While I think that you can observe some degree of correlation between scores and what "seems" to be intelligence, that is not always the case, and even when it is, it's not always a strong correlation.


169 is amazing. It doesn't have the nice "got something to say b***h?" swagger of 170, but I'd take it.

Mine are all clustered in the 150s.

I feel I'm inconsistent though in tests and job interviews. I had an interview this morning in which I was asked simple questions about C++ and couldn't answer some of them because I was awake for a couple of days before that and didn't have my head together. And I never get questions wrong about C++. Testing is never scientific.



Last edited by MyFutureSelfnMe on 10 Jul 2012, 1:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

auntblabby
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10 Jul 2012, 1:53 am

i wish i had one to brag about. :oops: