The Neanderthal theory, your thoughts?

Page 6 of 12 [ 185 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 ... 12  Next

MartyMoose
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 31 Mar 2008
Age: 36
Gender: Male
Posts: 957
Location: Chicago

05 May 2008, 7:45 pm

krex wrote:
Just some quick things that I think would make being a Neanderthal aspie more difficult.......

I am clummsy as heck,always tripping over my feet and running into doorways or miss judging distances.Wouldnt be unlikely for me to walk off a cliff or get distracted by a plant while the rest of my clan hits the trail....I look up 20 min later and find myself ....alone...oooops.My written communication is better then my verbal.I find tags in clothing uncomfortable....dont know how I would react to inadequately scrapped fur clothing....(I do love the feel of fur on my face but I dont think the inside would feel very good to my skin...kind of itchy?)

I have always had an interest in nature...watching and collecting bits of it,so I think I would enjoy being an "inventor" finding new uses for plants,wood,making arrowheads.I love to climb things and push my body to the extream .Sounds more fun then most of my jobs but I will scratch a mosquito bite until it bleeds and then enjoy picking the scabs for then next few weeks....not to good for avoiding infection?

All in all,true or not,I think it's fun to think about and imagine...... :D
I normally VERY clumsy but for some reason I'm Agile when running through a forest and ducking and diving through trees. for some reason i still find it fun.



MartyMoose
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 31 Mar 2008
Age: 36
Gender: Male
Posts: 957
Location: Chicago

05 May 2008, 7:53 pm

nominalist wrote:
AspieDave wrote:
I thought the interesting thing about the paper was the implication that Autism spectrum conditions could be a result of speciation. In other words, the difference are because of species, not because of mutation or of defect.


I still have ethical problems with the idea. Accusations of being a different "species" have also, at various times, been made, in the U.S., against African Americans and others.

Scientifically, I see it as hugely speculative and probably untestable, which is why I have focused on the ethical dimension.

I think it would be kinda cool to be a differant species. It would explain my unhumanly high tolerance to pain.



pschristmas
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 1 Apr 2008
Age: 57
Gender: Female
Posts: 959
Location: Buda, TX

05 May 2008, 8:00 pm

There is absolutely zero DNA evidence to support any connection between Homo sapiens sapiens and Homo neanderthalensis beyond their common ancestor. The two species' periods overlapped for about 20 ky, and for some of that they traveled in roughly the same areas of Europe and SW Asia, but there's no real evidence that the two species had any sort of interaction. Even when there is some interstratification of Neanderthal ("thal" is pronounced "tall", BTW) and modern human layers, when the strata can be proven to be undisturbed there is clear demarkation between the two, indicating a fairly long period of time between occupations.

Some researchers have suggested that the changes in the Neanderthal tool industry from Mousterian to Chatelperronian in France towards the end of the Neanderthal's existence (about 35 kya) argue for interaction between the two. They point to the creation of new tool types and the use of new materials, such as bone projectile points, and the creation of decorative items such as ivory rings as evidence of interaction with anatomically modern humans. However, these researchers tend to disregard evidence from other areas (such as very similar ivory ring blanks) that suggests that these innovations were part of a larger transitional period with similar manifestations in Neanderthal populations in areas where Homo sapiens sapiens had not yet arrived, as well as evidence that the Neanderthals were using completely different methods to produce their tools, which would tend to argue against their simply mimicking the new-comers.

Personally, I'm drawn to the theory that suggests that the changes in both Neanderthal and Homo sapiens sapiens culture that began around 42 kya or so were similar reactions in very similar populations to the same evolutionary stressor: a massive climatic change that occured at about the same time and changed the type of environment and food resources that were available to them. Sadly, the changes were simply too little to save the Neanderthals.

Don't get me wrong, Neanderthals were very cool. 8) They just didn't contribute anything to our genetic code.

Patricia



nominalist
Supporting Member
Supporting Member

User avatar

Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,740
Location: Lower Rio Grande Valley of Texas (born in NYC)

05 May 2008, 8:01 pm

MartyMoose wrote:
I think it would be kinda cool to be a differant species. It would explain my unhumanly high tolerance to pain.


The problem is that the Neanderthal hypothesis identifies Neanderthals as more intelligent, more aspie, and mostly Caucasoid. That is why I suggested it could be used by white supremacists.


_________________
Mark A. Foster, Ph.D. (retired tenured sociology professor)
36 domains/24 books: http://www.markfoster.net
Emancipated Autism: http://www.neurelitism.com
Institute for Dialectical metaRealism: http://dmr.institute


pschristmas
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 1 Apr 2008
Age: 57
Gender: Female
Posts: 959
Location: Buda, TX

05 May 2008, 8:20 pm

DemocraticSocialistHun wrote:
Doesn't the idea that Neanderthals and H.s.s. didn't interbreed sound racist to anyone here?


No more racist than the observation that dogs and cats don't interbreed. They're different species.

Patricia



MartyMoose
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 31 Mar 2008
Age: 36
Gender: Male
Posts: 957
Location: Chicago

05 May 2008, 8:29 pm

nominalist wrote:
DemocraticSocialistHun wrote:
Doesn't the idea that Neanderthals and H.s.s. didn't interbreed sound racist to anyone here?


I do not think that the purpose of the Neanderthal hypothesis is to support a racist ideology. However, aside from its possible use by some persons to promote racist social constructions, I still have tremendous problems with it. For instance, I contend that it is, much like Maslow's hierarchy of needs, thoroughly untestable.

One of the basic elements of the hypothesis, as I understand it, is that Caucasoids are more intelligent than Negroids (by around 30 IQ points), since Neanderthal ancestry is most common among Caucasoids. Supposedly, the Neanderthal trait manifests as "aspieness." Without the Neanderthal trait, Caucasoids and Negroids would, according to the hypothesis, have similar average IQ scores.

not all caucasoids have aspie brains. in fact most don't



MartyMoose
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 31 Mar 2008
Age: 36
Gender: Male
Posts: 957
Location: Chicago

05 May 2008, 8:50 pm

I posted this article in the autism speaks board just because I know people are going to go nuts over it and probably get angry.
hehehe
:twisted:



nominalist
Supporting Member
Supporting Member

User avatar

Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,740
Location: Lower Rio Grande Valley of Texas (born in NYC)

05 May 2008, 8:58 pm

MartyMoose wrote:
not all caucasoids have aspie brains. in fact most don't


True, but the hypothesis predicts that most aspies are Caucasoids. The writer specifically says that, because of the Neanderthal/aspie gene, Caucasoids have an IQ which is 30 points higher than Negroids. I see that as an extremely problematic idea, especially considering that it is speculative.


_________________
Mark A. Foster, Ph.D. (retired tenured sociology professor)
36 domains/24 books: http://www.markfoster.net
Emancipated Autism: http://www.neurelitism.com
Institute for Dialectical metaRealism: http://dmr.institute


MartyMoose
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 31 Mar 2008
Age: 36
Gender: Male
Posts: 957
Location: Chicago

05 May 2008, 8:59 pm

MartyMoose wrote:
nominalist wrote:
DemocraticSocialistHun wrote:
Doesn't the idea that Neanderthals and H.s.s. didn't interbreed sound racist to anyone here?


I do not think that the purpose of the Neanderthal hypothesis is to support a racist ideology. However, aside from its possible use by some persons to promote racist social constructions, I still have tremendous problems with it. For instance, I contend that it is, much like Maslow's hierarchy of needs, thoroughly untestable.

One of the basic elements of the hypothesis, as I understand it, is that Caucasoids are more intelligent than Negroids (by around 30 IQ points), since Neanderthal ancestry is most common among Caucasoids. Supposedly, the Neanderthal trait manifests as "aspieness." Without the Neanderthal trait, Caucasoids and Negroids would, according to the hypothesis, have similar average IQ scores.

not all caucasoids have aspie brains. in fact most don't

If its true I'm willing to bet most caucasoids don't event have neanderthal genes. I would like to hear more about these Basque people.



Fuzzy
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Age: 51
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,223
Location: Alberta Canada

05 May 2008, 9:10 pm

Recently some scientists used forensics to recreate the size and shape of a Neanderthal vocal chord using the hyoid bone. Considering the shape of this and the length of the neck, they simulated potential sounds from a neanderthal. They will attempt to construct sentences in english as a neanderthal today would pronounce them. Unfortunately I had my sound turned off and didnt hear what they had so far.



nominalist
Supporting Member
Supporting Member

User avatar

Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,740
Location: Lower Rio Grande Valley of Texas (born in NYC)

05 May 2008, 9:14 pm

Fuzzy wrote:
Recently some scientists used forensics to recreate the size and shape of a Neanderthal vocal chord using the hyoid bone. Considering the shape of this and the length of the neck, they simulated potential sounds from a neanderthal. They will attempt to construct sentences in english as a neanderthal today would pronounce them. Unfortunately I had my sound turned off and didnt hear what they had so far.


I know enough about how cave men talk from watching Geico commercials. ;-)


_________________
Mark A. Foster, Ph.D. (retired tenured sociology professor)
36 domains/24 books: http://www.markfoster.net
Emancipated Autism: http://www.neurelitism.com
Institute for Dialectical metaRealism: http://dmr.institute


MartyMoose
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 31 Mar 2008
Age: 36
Gender: Male
Posts: 957
Location: Chicago

05 May 2008, 9:14 pm

Fuzzy wrote:
Recently some scientists used forensics to recreate the size and shape of a Neanderthal vocal chord using the hyoid bone. Considering the shape of this and the length of the neck, they simulated potential sounds from a neanderthal. They will attempt to construct sentences in english as a neanderthal today would pronounce them. Unfortunately I had my sound turned off and didnt hear what they had so far.

do you have a link?
also it would help if they actually had a neanderthal with a brain say them not possible but the brain is very important.



DemocraticSocialistHun
Snowy Owl
Snowy Owl

User avatar

Joined: 26 Nov 2005
Age: 56
Gender: Male
Posts: 144
Location: NE Ohio, United Snakes of Neoconservatism

06 May 2008, 8:34 am

MartyMoose wrote:
If its true I'm willing to bet most caucasoids don't event have neanderthal genes.


Possible ancestral structure in human populations
PLoS Genetics
Vincent Plagno, Jeff D. Wall

http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/inf ... en.0020105
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2006/06/ar ... human.html

Vincent Plagno, Jeff D. Wall wrote:
...Using sequence data from the Environmental Genome Project, we find strong evidence for ancient admixture in both a European and a West African population (p ~ 10^{-7}), with contributions to the modern gene pool of at least 5%. While Neanderthals form an obvious archaic source population candidate in Europe, there is not yet a clear source population candidate in West Africa.



DemocraticSocialistHun
Snowy Owl
Snowy Owl

User avatar

Joined: 26 Nov 2005
Age: 56
Gender: Male
Posts: 144
Location: NE Ohio, United Snakes of Neoconservatism

06 May 2008, 8:52 am

pschristmas wrote:
There is absolutely zero DNA evidence to support any connection between Homo sapiens sapiens and Homo neanderthalensis beyond their common ancestor.


Most likely, the evidence is sparse. The Neanderthal genome is currently in the process of being mapped. The Neanderthal population was never that large to begin with, so the result of any limited interbreeding that may have occurred is that only those genes that were of benefit were positively selected. All other Neanderthal genes would have been washed out in four generations.

pschristmas wrote:
but there's no real evidence that the two species had any sort of interaction.


Again few Neanderthals to begin with, rather limited interaction, and very little in remains found. So what do you expect? A miracle?

pschristmas wrote:
Some researchers have suggested that the changes in the Neanderthal tool industry from Mousterian to Chatelperronian in France towards the end of the Neanderthal's existence (about 35 kya) argue for interaction between the two. They point to the creation of new tool types and the use of new materials, such as bone projectile points, and the creation of decorative items such as ivory rings as evidence of interaction with anatomically modern humans. However, these researchers tend to disregard evidence from other areas (such as very similar ivory ring blanks) that suggests that these innovations were part of a larger transitional period with similar manifestations in Neanderthal populations in areas where Homo sapiens sapiens had not yet arrived, as well as evidence that the Neanderthals were using completely different methods to produce their tools, which would tend to argue against their simply mimicking the new-comers.


Mimicking is so NT.

pschristmas wrote:
Personally, I'm drawn to the theory that suggests that the changes in both Neanderthal and Homo sapiens sapiens culture that began around 42 kya or so were similar reactions in very similar populations to the same evolutionary stressor: a massive climatic change that occured at about the same time and changed the type of environment and food resources that were available to them. Sadly, the changes were simply too little to save the Neanderthals.


Most likely Neanderthals invented and H.s.s copied.



DemocraticSocialistHun
Snowy Owl
Snowy Owl

User avatar

Joined: 26 Nov 2005
Age: 56
Gender: Male
Posts: 144
Location: NE Ohio, United Snakes of Neoconservatism

06 May 2008, 9:05 am

nominalist wrote:
Interesting:

Quote:
Some opinions aver that the Neanderthals were slowly wiped out by the smarter H. sapiens in the competition for resources.

Other contend that we and the Neanderthals were more than just kissing cousins. Interbreeding took place, which explains why the Neanderthal line died out, but implies that we could have Neanderthal inheritage in our genome today, goes this theory.


Even if the interbreeding occurred, these Neanderthals were apparently not as bright as homo sapiens, which, if true, puts a hole in the Neanderthal model.


No, H.s.s copied Neanderthal inventions and spread such inventions amongst themselves. Neanderthals had to be smarter because they had to keep "reinventing the wheel."

Furthermore, even the more prolific H.s.s. almost died out at one point too. Rate of reproduction, mimicry, and trade are the key factors to H.s.s/NT success.



DemocraticSocialistHun
Snowy Owl
Snowy Owl

User avatar

Joined: 26 Nov 2005
Age: 56
Gender: Male
Posts: 144
Location: NE Ohio, United Snakes of Neoconservatism

06 May 2008, 9:17 am

nominalist wrote:
...because of the Neanderthal/aspie gene, Caucasoids have an IQ which is 30 points higher than Negroids. I see that as an extremely problematic idea, especially considering that it is speculative.


Caucasoids have (or appear to have) an IQ which is 30 points higher than Negroids regardless of the cause -- genetics, environment, bias in the tests, Neanderthal inheritance, combinations of various factors, etc. The Neanderthal Theory doesn't have anything to do with White Supremacy. The only thing it has anything to do with is NT's delusions of superiority and intolerance of neuroatypical differences.