A deep question: why so many people here have cat avatars?

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You're adding the "emotional" bit to the "overreaction." What I mean is that the content of your responses comes across as overcompensation for what you perceive (in this case, incorrectly) to be anthropomorphizing of cats. I don't know or care how emotional you are about the topic, and I would thank you to not assign emotional states to me simply because I have never seen anyone actually defend such claims about animal cognition with anything resembling empirical data, while I have seen much that supports my perspective. This isn't about me being a "cat lover," but about responding to statements that strike me as utterly counter to reality.



I am not going to bother to show you anything to prove you are wrong, as you will do what you did with the link about cats being able to manipulate human emotions (and ignoring the other link that describes how humans and cats have emotional interactions that go both ways), and simply reinterpret the data to support your beliefs. I don't see any point to arguing with confirmation bias.



I made no such statement. I said that feline brains (and mammalian brains in general) have structures similar to human brains, even if they are not as complex.



Now you're anthropomorphizing cats to support your views. I am satisfied at this point that you are simply wrong, and your assertions contradict everything I've ever observed or read about feline behavior. I too have had extensive experience with cats, and I have read studies about feline behavior, and what I have seen is completely inconsistent with your claims.

OK let's get this bit out of the way first:

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/overreaction


How is saying all cats have Asperger's (which is the book everyone keeps going on about) not anthropomorphising cats?

Just because empirical data may not exist that does not mean that a viewpoint is incorrect. Like I said, behaviour researchers have no proof either, just supposition on their own interpretations. The very fact that people are researching such things about cats probably stems from the fact they are cat fans to be so fascinated by them, so they will always bring forth evidence to back up their thought processes anyway. You may never get to hear the boring stuff which disproves them. Research has to be interesting to get funding. Who is going to fund research to say "cats are like other creatures that follow basic instincts and they do not have a human level of emotion"?

I didn't reinterpret data from your links, I just stated what they said, that cats manipulate (or control) humans. Just because I didn't mention the whole article doesn't mean I didn't read it or understand it. Please explain where I misinterpreted because you are erroneous, I was factual. You cannot show me anything to prove I am wrong, because such proof of course does not exist. If it did, how could I state otherwise if it was there in front of me, I would accept it.

I didn't say you did make "such a statement", you have missed my point. I said this to elucidate, that the same structure does not equal same brain/body ratio or same amount of connections. Those two key elements make a big difference in brain ability and complexity which has a direct effect on what emotions the creature would be capable of.

When I said: "Cats are highly selfish creatures, they are only interested in their needs - hence the manipulation!" how the hell do you make that anthropomorphising a cat?! All animals are interested in their own needs, that is the survival instinct! This is my point! They don't go much beyond those basic instincts.

I appreciate you taking the time to respond to my post (although it was unnecessary) but you have said a lot without saying anything. You may believe I am wrong, this doesn't make that the case though. All the observation in the world does not prove cats can feel the same complex level of human emotions. That's just wishful thinking, and there are a lot of people who have cats as a substitute baby. It even said in one of your links about their high pitched miaows having a sound that humans dislike and need to resolve what it is the cat wants - this is exactly what human baby cries are designed to do to the human parent.

Very much like cats kneading, you could call many things cats do stims I agree with everything you said there, it's very complex and there is no black or white.

Interesting how the OP started this thread saying he was asking a deep question sarcastically and it wasn't a very deep question, really but it has become a debate about a profound philosophical issue: Is there something fundamentally superior about humans in comparison to other animals.

I definitely think in the way that we measure and define intelligence currently that humans are WAY more intelligent than other animals. There is evidence, for example, that language (being able to acquire a "grammar" of a language) is uniquely human. Even the gorillas who have learned sign language haven't internalized a grammar enough so that they can create their own new sentences and change around words according to the grammar ect. Linguists classify this as communication but not language.

However ,the question remains: does this kind of intelligence equate with goodness or the ability to love and be altruistic and empathetic? Does it equate with what's valuable and sacred about human life or life in general? What about some people with severe or profound intellectual disabilities? Some are incapable of acquiring language the way non-human animals are, with a grasp of the grammar so they can construct and understand an infinite number of novel sentences.How much intelligence is required for goodness? Does this make them less valuable? If not , why not? Is it because they're human and human life is sacred?

I think part of it comes down to whether you believe in souls or spirits that other creatures don't have and whether you believe that humans have souls and this accounts for (at least some of) their potential for goodness. Of course some believe animals have souls too but then there are some tricky questions -do fish have souls? How about other living things? Do microbes?Do plants ect.

Anyway, sorry for derailing the thread further but I think the above argument is really about conflicting views about these kind of philosophical questions.

I don't believe in souls.

A cat has many ways to display affection:

http://www.catster.com/cat-behavior/cat-affection

Of course, the thing is understanding this affection from a feline point of view. The cat doesn't think in terms of 'owner' or human love. For him it's more like considering you a member of the pack (and a feline pack has much looser bonds than a canine one, for example). But in his way, a cat shows appreciation. Kneading or bringing you presents (as dead mice) are examples of that. For an animal, sharing the food he hunts with you means that he considers you a member of his social group.

If you watch a documentary about, for example, lions in Africa, the way they behave with others members of the pack resembles in some way how a cat behaves with his owner.

^^^^^

Thank you. This is consistent with my experiences and observations.

Then all of our intelligence and our goodness, love ect. come from our physical brain in your view. I guess then it just depends what makes life sacred and valuable and whether you think animals are capable of this (or maybe they are but only to a certain extent). I'm assuming it's goodness, capacity for love and altruism that is valuable.

Personally I don't have a fully formed view point on this. I'm thinking these things through while following this thread. I do think cats and other non-human animals are capable of empathy and goodness at-least to a certain extent and I think it'd be really hard to figure out to what extent (assuming altruism exists but is just mixed with other motives or emotions like most motives and emotions are). Is this just what I'm seeing because it's I want to believe it? Not sure.

It's okay, the same author wrote a book entitled "All Dogs have ADHD", so it could be worse, we could be being compared to dogs I kind of like the cat book though, I'm a cat fan and I find it cute.

The primary difference between the brains of humans and other mammals is that we have a larger and more developed neo cortex.

The neo cortex is involved in higher functions such as sensory perception, generation of motor commands, spatial reasoning, conscious thought, reasoning, logic, and language.

Emotions are instincts that originate in the Limbic System, part of the old brain that we share with animals.

Therefore it makes no sense to assume that cats do not have the same capacity to love as we do.

However, saying that cats are manipulative and selfish, is anthropomorphizing.

whirlingmind, you could use a cute kitty avatar.

It kind of makes sence, but not totally. So there could also be books like: "All Rabbits have Mutism" or "All Horses have Restless Legs Syndrome" or with personality disorders it could also work.

I think cats show some behaviour that's accosiated with autism, but it's still something different of course and by the way the cat of my mom behaves like he has ADHD.

I agree with what you have said, and it all comes down to the survival instinct. This is why most animals have social groups or packs, it's the safety in numbers element and the availability of mates to ensure the survival of their kind. Even the 'appreciation' is part of that. Bringing you food to ensure you have enough to eat and also curry favour with you so that you continue to protect him/her and make available the things s/he needs to ensure his/her survival. It's not emotional and it's not love.

...and bird preening therefore is a stim...horses snorting is a stim...dogs scratching is a stim...ad infinitum...

I don't think it's even about humans being superior, or more intelligent, and definitely not about souls, it's purely about the capabilities of the brain of an animal and it's inherent abilities to feel and display that level of emotions and the reasons for what humans may perceive as it being equivalent to the same human emotion.

The above emboldened parts in your post, would all be necessary to have emotion, so humans having larger ones have developed the ability for complex emotions that cats and other animals haven't. You have said that the human neo cortex is larger and more developed, and it would as I've said be vital for the formation of complex emotions and yet then you say that cats have the same capacity as humans for those emotions.

Here: http://www.psycheducation.org/emotion/brain%20pix.htm it says we only partly understand what parts of the brain are responsible for emotions anyway and that (which concurs with what I said) that emotions (or mood) are likely affected by several parts of the brain.

I wouldn't agree love is an instinct. Attraction is an instinct, but most animals do not mate for life as humans do and as long as they have sown their seed they've done their job.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selfishness



Selfish is certainly not a behaviour peculiar to humans, in fact you have anthropomorphised the word itself by what you have said. Regarding manipulation, you haven't read Verdandi's link then (in her above post, and which she also used the word 'manipulate' to make the opposing point to mine), in which the researchers say (amongst other things):

Cats Do Control Humans, Study Finds



The hilarious thing is, that when I Googled the word 'selfish', fourth on the list of options was a row of photos - the first of which was of a cat!

I don't deny kittens look cute, but that doesn't mean I think cats are Aspies or have the same motivations and emotions, I have no affinity for cats and therefore wouldn't choose an avatar of one. I also don't have an affinity with dogs but can appreciate the aesthetic beauty and cuteness of puppies...especially this one:



Now, doesn't that just beat any kitten hands down?

whirlingmind you seem to take this topic very seriously and no matter what my most favourite animal will ALWAYS be the cat.

Just because, just because I love them.