Neurotypical Privilege

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Self serving bias: Self-serving bias refers to people's tendency to attribute positive outcomes to personal factors, but attribute negative outcomes to external factors.

Nope not what is going on at all.

People with privilege do do that, which is part of why they are so blind to it.

Well, given that all of the factors I've described have been empirically demonstrated to be real factors. The example I posted was as blatant as they come, and extremely well documented.

I need to locate it, but there was a study done that involved giving people a test, having the test graded, and they would be given a failing grade no matter how well they did.

Black men and all women were more likely to attribute their failing grade to their own performance.

White men were more likely to attribute their failing grade to discrimination.

Throwing out "self-serving bias" as an explanation is just lazy rhetoric. You're dodging the reality of the situation in order to blame marginalized people for their own marginalization, and avoid acknowledging your own privilege.

However, I would love to read your explanation of redlining as "self-serving bias." That would at least be entertaining.

Oh, hey, here's a study:

http://www.uvm.edu/~psych/graduate/gen_ ... lainer.pdf

It also stated that no matter how valid, how obvious, etc. that discrimination was, a black man who complained about discrimination was seen as hypersensitive, as a complainer, emotional, argumentative, irritable, and trouble making. Which seems indicative of a general attitude that people like to dismiss real discrimination and attempt to turn it into the person's problem even when the discrimination is real and obvious.

Another paper on how marginalized people tend to remain quiet about discrimination:

http://depts.washington.edu/silab/Docum ... er%20(2003).pdf

I can't paste text, but the opening statement states "Surprisingly, members of stigmatized groups are often reluctant to admit that they have been targeted by prejudice."

Kicker's vision of a world where it's just people complaining isn't even accurate or representative. There's a social cost to talking about discrimination that Kicker is himself trying to inflict by insisting that this is nothing more than "self-serving bias" and refusing to acknowledge evidence to the contrary. I picked racism and redlining deliberately because I am white and thus have never experienced racism myself. But even then my statements are interpreted as "self-serving bias." I am guessing he did not bother to read the article "21 things you can't do while black" which actually describes multiple things black people were killed while doing, because they were black and thus perceived as dangerous, or trespassing, or otherwise somewhere they were not "supposed to be" in the eyes of primarily white people.

Also, http://www.policechiefmagazine.org/maga ... e_id=52009

And, like I said:



Attributing real demonstrated, proven, actually happened in the real world racism to "self-serving bias" is an example of precisely the sort of behavior I described in the above paragraph. It's a deflection and does not reflect any sort of genuine engagement. It is, at best, a repeated lie with the intent to silence an uncomfortable discussion. And both of the papers I linked at the top of the post indicate that stigmatized people are less willing to attribute things to discrimination because of the social cost of doing so, of being mischaracterized as, well, engaging in "self-serving bias."

And its long-lasting consequences! I would love to hear that explanation!

My apologies. If you go back to the very beginning of this thread (third post, which was way back in August), you'll note that I'm still learning about what privilege entails exactly and I'm sorry if that was reflected in my phrasing. My thought remains, though. Basically, I'm wondering if people are reacting to the concept that we're discussing or previously conditioned and/or decided opinions over a politicized/polarized label.

Please feel free not to address this, though, I find what Verdandi's saying to be an entirely more interesting point of discussion. Verdandi, I feel like you should write a textbook or something because I learn SO much every time you contribute to this thread!

Thanks. I thought Verdandi's post was good, too.

@Verdandi

You win, you are right. I will let you get back to overthrowing the evil NT overlords.


Ps. Just so you know why you are winning. I am not playing your game of changing the argument to blacks. This has nothing to do with racial profiling and everything to do with behavior. Mainly self serving behavior which is what you demonstrated by changing the argument to blacks. Showing that your argument has been poorly conceived and completely circumstantial at best.

Last edited by kicker on 14 Feb 2014, 2:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

This only appears to show that the white men tested were smarter, and realized the test was rigged.

I would think something is fishy too, if I take a test and they told me I failed. I would wonder if they are intentionally cheating me, or did a grading error happen.

If no grading error, then they are cheating me. But why I would wonder?

I'm wondering if some posting here are thinking that acknowledging that neurotypical privilage exists, is also saying that because of that everyone has an excuse to feel sorry for themselves and giving up. That is not what is being said at all. Research has consistently shown that it is much more difficult for disabled to achieve what they are intellectually and/or physical capable of accomplishing than their counterparts. And that what is hodling them back is others perception of them because of their disabilities, than their actual disabilities. and sometimes, when a person is treated as "less than" their entire life, it is even more difficult.

We need change. We need accommodation. We need acceptance. Many of us, in a autistic friendly environment could work for money. And those that cannot, they need to be respected and admired for their many awesome traits that do not revolve around a paycheck

If that was what was being discussed then there wouldn't be a problem. Without discussion on the differences of both sides (like the touted inability of understanding social cues so half of these supposed slights may be misunderstandings) then it's nothing more than a rant.

No personal responsibility has been taken or acknowledged. In fact no one is even able to say that it makes them angry or accept that "Nts" have just as much of a problem understanding us as we do them. If anyone wants acceptance, understanding and movement forward then they need to be accepting and understanding of those differences as well.

[redacted]

Acknowleging our faults? Hmmm. I would have to say that probably the 2 biggest faults in autistics is that we tend to blame ourselves for things we did not do wrong, and that we, as a group, have been naive enough to believe what society has taught us, that we are 'less than."

Thank God for uppity people like MLK who refused to fall for that b.s. And thank god for uppity autistics , Verandi among others, who also refuse to 'know their place."

Also, yes, I am angry, and I work every day to help my people. I work every day to promote acceptance. And I do understand that the insane wiring that causes NTs' to,as a group, be so predatory, non-inclusive, judgemental, greedy, lemming like bullying, shallow, etc. is not their fault. And I believe, just as I believe that autistics can learn to say "NO MORE PAYING FOR OTHERS SINS!" that NT's can learn to temper some of their own grotesquely barbaric tendencies.

To be honest, I've seen more of the "pretty/rich/thin" privilege throughout my life than virtually any other kind, including racial.

I have long been aware that I have problems being social, so I've deliberately oriented myself toward jobs that don't require me to (i.e., technical/research type jobs), and I've structured my personal life to not revolve around large groups of people. I've had my own share of privilege by virtue of being in the top 1% of the IQ bell curve, but it hasn't been quite enough to overcome my lack of social skills. But for that, I could have been an astronaut or a brain surgeon. Am I being oppressed, or am I simply acknowledging my limitations?

Kicker, don't know who you are, but ever since reading the above message (without the p.s which you added in an edit and I saw just now) I have been thinking about you and admiring how smart you were not to get into it with these folks. To me you are much smarter than I am. It comes across that you are able to process data very quickly with a clear mind. In my case I have some serious problems but I learned see my own difficulties and accept responsibility for my own brain function (or lack of function:-) It is me, after all. but in order to be able to do this I had to learn to think. To get into an argument with certain people is counter-productive, I agree, as there is not much of a payoff---I mean, who want to win over someone who is......? No satisfaction in that, plus I prefer a win-win situation. To me that is extremely joyful...

....but to understand WHY can be important. Imo it is a common device for people who are hurting to band together and form a social system around a perceived enemy. I have mentioned this topic when referring to the work of Bion regarding group organization and will go into it further in some of my writings about autistic encapsulation. The thing that makes it difficult is that there are real enemies in this world that do need to be fought, but if people are fighting these enemies and even looking for new enemies and making enemies so as to feel warm and cozy in a group by fighting them, then there is a limited perspective. True activists choose their particular battles and are very cut and dried. Yes, certain unjust behavior of other people rightfully makes them feel bad, and they target a particular aspect and act to change it, but if you look again at the link at the beginning of this thread to the long and growing list of so called privileges, which I just did, it is very fascinating to see the extent of subjective psychological negative emotions and gripes mixed in with various facts of some actual injustices that are happening in reality around other people's distorted perception of autistics. There are real injustices occurring, and, as you pointed out, other people, meaning so called nts are thinking wrong, too, but the way these particular autistic people are framing things makes it difficult to sort out, and I think it is because the hidden intent is not to sort out their own psychological disorder within themselves because it is too painful. It is not real activism, but using activism as an excuse and an escape, so a diversion from actual work and actual doing. Again, a true hardcore activist, by my observation, is very cut and dried. He sets his goal based on a standard of perceived ethical fairness and sets out to achieve fairness, one particular instance at a time. He does not sit around as a pastime getting warm and cozy bonding with others like himself by talking about unfairness and how he feels about being treated unfairly.

Yes, to compare black people and some or all of the other groups mentioned (I forget what they were) to autistic people makes little sense. Black people are in general capable of doing the same things that people of other races are in general capable of doing, but in the case of autistic people, the situation is in many instances quite different. Because of an immature theory of mind thing many autistic people have a bigger difficulty sorting things out (and I include myself here....), so the idea of banding together to fight a society that doesn't understand and cater to them is very appealing and furthers their own tendency toward autistic encapsulation which closes them off from the rest of people into a little box (and you can count me out from this angle).

I think this can be worked on by and with those who want to work. There is this saying---the rich get richer and the poor get poorer--but some people do not want to work, which is their personal prerogative. I say try to include them into the process, but if they do not want to be included, then be respectful and kind of communicate around them by using their understanding (or perceived lack of it) as a pivot to understand things better about oneself and to communicate with those who do want to to work. The key point is that not everybody wants to work. people are on the internet and participating on various forums for different reasons.

First let me say that I find it really intelligent that you were able to see through the links obvious mental health issues. So you shouldn't be so hard on yourself. It takes a lot of effort and know-how to be able to do that.

I spoke to my therapist about this just a short while ago today. I know I struggle with this. It's like finding a hurt bird. Do you take the chance that it will get up on it's own or do you try to help. I am able to "cut through the bullsh*t easily" and "define the situation" but I struggle with "choosing the best kind of help". (quotes are my therapist remarks). He also reminded me that people don't like looking at themselves or their behaviors that I am "one off" (meaning not the norm, I asked) when it comes to that. Also that they don't like to truth seek, because they fear what they may find (also 'one off' on that). That is probably my biggest problem is I can't understand how people don't do any of that.

So pretty much what you said. I just need to remember it.

I enjoy a win-win situation too and find a lot more enjoyment and satisfaction having accomplished something with someone with a common goal. I honestly don't think the goals are different here. As well fairness is extremely important along with truth what ever it may be or how hard it may be to hear. It's something I hold extremely dear.

I would actually like to read what you have so far about autistic encapsulation. Without getting into too much detail here, I am working on a behavioral learning system. I believe we both could help each other out with constructive banter and bringing our strengths to the table. If you are comfortable with that of course. Send me a private message and we can talk about it.