wp getting annoying

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This is something called a fundamental attribution error. It's the tendency people have to view others as being constituted entirely on a few actions, attitudes, etc. Like seeing someone here express frustration about their difficulties and characterizing them as having self-defeating or self-pitying attitudes even though what we see on this forum is a very narrow slice of anyone's life.

There's one poster who loves to do this to me, claiming that I know nothing about "real activism" because all she's seen of me is on this forum, and the rest of my life is completely irrelevant to her judgment. When given information to correct her mistaken beliefs, she rejects that information because it is easier to miscategorize me as someone she can criticize for not doing, knowing, or understanding things that I do, know, and understand, but that because these things are somewhat beyond the scope of this forum she can constantly act as if they don't exist.

Ah, now that's an interesting twist on it. I want to see people improve their lives and improve their circumstances, and trying to help makes me a jerk.

I just love the smell of hate in the morning!

When we were homeless, we were fortunate enough not to have to resort to food stamps, but we did stockpile WIC for as long as we could, even after we bought a home. I recognize that it isn't up to me how someone else spends their money, and I don't have any undue sense of authority (I'm a teacher, I get paid to tell people what to do, and I've got experience to back that up; I'm also in charge of a group of volunteers, but I prefer to think of myself as a team leader rather than a know-it-all dictator). But what I DO control is what cause I give money to, and I have no obligation beyond paying taxes to spend my money any particular way. If I'm not comfortable buying illegal drugs/alcohol for someone, I'm not compelled to.

Class doesn't mean anything to me. We are an impoverished family, I'm working to improve our situation, and I like to encourage others to do the same if that's what they want to do. I can't make people want to better themselves, but I can offer to help those who do want it.

And while we don't have a lot of things, neither do I begrudge those who are of better means than we are. I don't like where we are, so I'm working to change that. There's nothing wrong with that.

If you haven't seen it, you're not paying attention. A significant amount of discussion here is ableist, sometimes extremely ableist.

It is unfortunately very common for Aspies on this forum to demean, diminish, and belittle the abilities and accomplishments of people they categorize as "low functioning autistic" and when actual people who are actually described as such post their experiences, they're not really acknowledged as being genuine, or told they're not who they say they are.

There's one poster who rejects any criticism of Autism Speaks. He often throws in barbs at the people who criticize Autism Speaks and disagree with him - they're simultaneously "too autistic" to be capable of empathy or compassion for parents who have to raise autistic children and "too mild" to have ever experienced any real problems in life. That's ableist.

And in this thread, the second reply is ableist: http://www.wrongplanet.net/postp5952231.html#5952231

Numerous responses in this other thread mischaracterize autistic people with difficulties as "using their disability as an excuse" and falsely linking early diagnosis to an unwillingness to apply effort to anything other than living on welfare:

http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt253717.html

I've seen multiple discussions in which it is asserted that "high functioning" autistic people don't need accommodations, or specific accommodations are targeted as giving an unfair advantage. That's ableist.

I don't know what you're defining as "discrimination against disabled persons" as but if you're not seeing any on this forum, you probably have an extremely narrow and inaccurate view of what it is.

well, I don't see them as constituted entirely by a few actions and attitudes, as it is not them I am criticizing but exactly those attitudes I have seen.
it's unfair because in English I can't express myself well. Hmm in fact I can't express myself well anyway but it still gets worse

But do those attitudes reflect the person or do they simply reflect grievances expressed in the particular moment when they wrote those posts or started those threads? Is it wrong to have grievances ever?

Yes, but for some, this is the bulk of what they post here. If people just need to vent, then it's proper to express that. They should make it more clear if that's the issue. Saying "My gf has been cheating on me and dumped me for some other guy" isn't the same as saying "Why does this always happen to me? All girls ever do is cheat on me because I'm overweight and don't have any money. And I can't get a job because I have to play Warcraft AT LEAST 8 hours a day or I'll start having seizures. But all they ever want to do is go to clubs, and I hate dubstep. Why can't I just have a regular gf who likes to stay home with me, play video games, and have sex? I'm a nice guy, dadgommit!"

These stream-of-consciousness rants about how bad life ALWAYS sucks, nothing good EVER happens to people, and why my little toenail hurts and it's everyone else's fault but mine just get old.

Attribution error it may very well be, but I think linatet has an excellent point.

No the same thing does not apply. Giving a money to a homeless person is not the same thing as handing a suicidal person a gun. A homeless person is unlikely to use that money to immediately self-destruct. Using drugs or alcohol is not necessarily self-destructive to begin with. It may be, or it may not be. You can't know for sure either way, you can only make an assumption.

Depressed people don't go around asking for guns in the same way that homeless people ask for money, so the comparison is absurd. And people do not suffer physically when they recover from depression, the way addicts suffer from withdrawal.

But what if we reword your comments to fit the analogy?



"Giving depressed people [something they ask for] instead of [taking care of their most basic needs] is positive reinforcement for keeping up the behavior that made them depressed in the first place. Depressed people just want to stay depressed, so [giving them what they ask for] results in positive reinforcement, enabling the behavior."

Your argument just doesn't hold up.

I don't hate you, but you simply asserted a typical stereotype of homeless people (give them food because if you give them money they'll just by alcohol with it) as if they are children who need to be controlled. What you wrote is the sort of thing I frequently see from people who hate and judge homeless people, however.



No one is saying you have to spend money for any cause or give money to homeless people. I'm not even saying there's anything wrong with giving food to homeless people.



If this were true, why make such a big deal about how homeless people are too irresponsible to be trusted with money? That is a classic classist assumption. Being impoverished yourself doesn't mean you won't hold such attitudes, and since you blatantly expressed them earlier in the thread, I'm not sure what you want those attitudes to be characterized as if not as what they actually reflect.

Your comment here:



You start by referring to homeless people as "bums," That's a classist label used against homeless people to characterize them as inferior. That is its only use.

You say that giving them money is positive reinforcement for keeping up the behavior that made them homeless and/or jobless in the first place. This too is a classist believe, that somehow people who end up in such situations are there strictly through their own flawed behavior and not due to other circumstances that may have been beyond their control. Especially in the current economy. In the US, for example, more people end up in poverty every year, and many of these people end up homeless. Because the economy, and American social safety nets have failed them. There's no behavior that put them there, it was essentially bad luck in a terrible economy.

Characterizing all homeless people as addicted to drugs or alcohol is another classist assumption, as is the assumption that the way to help them is to simply deprive them of access to these things, without any consideration as to why those who really are addicted to something turned to that option. Being addicted to drugs or alcohol isn't a personal failure any more than being homeless is. It is an illness, and one that can be treated. However, an important element of addiction is the situation that prompted substance use as a viable alternative to dealing with the real world. If people are homeless and hopeless and drinking alcohol to avoid thinking about their situation, then just giving them food, water, clothing, etc. without addressing the core problem is not going to help them get anywhere. It's not so simple as positive and negative reinforcement regarding behaviors you consider appropriate or inappropriate, let alone behaviors you wrongly attribute their homelessness to.

I am kind of impressed that you're the one who is resorting to classist, dehumanizing depictions of homeless people and blaming them for their own poverty and homelessness, but I'm the one that's spreading hate. Classic.

So venting only counts if you find it acceptable, and otherwise it gets mischaracterized in terms of extreme caricature? Untangling what you wrote there is a thing in itself, but I see you don't simply reserve your contempt for homeless people. I see you bring up fat people, mock people for having seizures (in addition to that nonsensical "must play Warcraft 8 hours a day to lead into it), and mixing it all up with nice guy overentitlement/misogyny about being entitled to women and sex with those women.



Okay, so what? Try not reading the threads? The only issue I have is when people try to say that every autistic person must live such awful lives.



If it's a fundamental attribution error then it is not an excellent point. It is a terrible, biased point. By definition, it cannot both be an error and an excellent point.

You are right in that I don't really pay attention to much negative discussion. I have never really read through any thread that contains the ableism you describe coming from Aspies to those that are lower functioning. I never was interested in reading the Autism Speaks thread, therefore I never saw the ableism there, though what you describe concerning that thread does sound harshly discriminating.



The second reply in this thread confused me in that it was an Aspie stereotyping other autistics, and while I can see how it is ableist, I have a tendency to consider it misinformed (or misinterpreted by myself) rather than maliciously discriminatory (unless pushed repetitively/harshly). Maybe when they wrote 'a lot' it was an exagguration. I do see what you mean though, and I don't need to remind you that you're definitely not in the wrong to feel bothered.

Again you are correct, my view of such discrimination is very narrow & overly lenient, unless it personally stands out to me. I can't explain why I view it inaccurately as that's just how I interpret things.

Nothing wrong with not paying attention, to be fair. Especially here.



I don't think all discrimination is malicious. I think a lot of it is ignorant, misguided, attempts to do the right thing without understanding that the way one goes about causes more troubles than it solves. A lot of it is well-meaning but handled rather badly. I think Eccles' post was well meaning but dismissive of real problems.



I probably shouldn't have stated it the way I did, I tend to get into a certain "engagement mode" in these threads and in retrospect see how harshly I stated things to make my point. I'm sorry about that.

There are many things I don't see when it should be apparent to me (or at least others assert that to be the case). I do understand how that can happen.

verdandi was spot on.
if it isnt known already am low functioning autistic by traditional standards;intelectualy disabled and have experienced incredible prejudice, discrimination at the typing hands of elitists who think we are inferior autistics and dont belong here.

whenever the cure topic comes up;the ignorant and elitists will always defend the rights of autistics to live as they want to live without a cure; but those of us who are 'low functioning' shoud be cured,the autistic community shoud be defending everyones right to live how they want and stop assuming we live lives of misery.

have personaly been told multiple times am not worthy enough to be posting on WP,and shoud stay out of any topics that are the slightest bit complex because have got no opinion of value.

there is discrimination from some towards having intelectual disability though its in the form of arguing; against them throwing out ret*d/ret*d left,right and centre & being told why the use of 'ret*d' is profoundly dehumanising,disrespectful and offensive to us,we are called sensitive and politicaly correct for wanting to be treated as humans and not treated with such vile disrespect from a community that shoud know better than to dehumanize those who are different to them.
imagine if there was a HFA specific slur with such a vicious,bigoted and outdated history that was used against aspies,for one thing aspies hate being called ret*d as they dont like being associated with us;hey,guess what-we hate it to,we arent ret*d we just have a different mental capacity.

there is incredible obsession and lemming behaviors with having high inteligence here and any famous classic autistic who has skills/talents is armchair re-diagnosed with aspergers by desperate individuals who cannot understand that people with their form of autism arent the only people on the spectrum who can have gifts/talents about them to.

people tend to notice injustice that is something they relate to more,
so its not surprising how so many people are blind to the elitism not just in WP but in the autistic community as a whole,towards LFA.
we coud probably also say the same thing about the elitism from the AUTISM community towards HFA,as they traditionaly focus on a very restricted view of LFA.

Kingdom of Rats; What you are saying, is, unfortunately true. I saw this take place at the mini retreat here in Colorado a couple weeks ago. Every person at the retreat was "different" and had suffered through being treated "less than," been excluded and even abused for being different. Every person at AutHaven would NEVER exclude someone for being "too different." Except, it happened.

No one was deliberately cruel to this person, but there were a number [large number] of "What's wrong with him? Why is he doing that? That is so weird." type comments. It did seem that the more highly intelligent, physically attractive,obviously talented, and/or more "normal"behaving attendees had the biggest issue with this particular person. And that bothers me...a lot.

You are so "spot on" in your assessment, and I admire you for standing up and speaking out on this issue.

Well I can't say I like being called ret*d, but I would be proud to be associated with you any day! Maybe it would trick people into thinking I'm as eloquent as you! Hey, ya everyone, I'm just like KingdomOfRats. Don't you get us mixed up a lot?! !

Thanks for clearing that up.

I know that I don't need to tell you this, but your opinions most certainly have value, perhaps even more-so as those with LFA (at least from my observations) seem to be under represented. I agree with everything you have written there. I find it abhorrent that individuals on this forum (whom would likely be seeking comfort themselves) would treat you with such disrespect. If I have given off an impression even remotely similar to what you have posted, then I'm deeply sorry.

Perhaps this forum should recruit more moderators from the pool of members that have been around for a long time, yet are still active (4 years + etc) to help the existing moderators stop that behaviour.

I believe someone already mentioned it, suppose quoting a +1 would be easier, but this defies the entire purpose of autism awareness and asperger's awareness. Nobody really wants to spend all day on the computer expecting to be entitled to anything. Some of us have stepped out of our comfort zone, and had a horrible experience. I've been dragged to a dance club with my best friend, I couldn't picture a place I wanted to be less. I've been dragged with friends to a birthday party with several intoxicated individuals, and I spent most of the night on the couch playing scrabble on my phone. I've been hurt and manipulated by people I called friends - or girlfriends - and I never understood why at the time. The kind of things we experience make us want to be a hermit and use the internet all day. I can't function like most other people (I'm going to refrain from saying "neurotypical" since it gets old) and I never will be able to no matter how hard I try. I don't want to go out and do things that make me uncomfortable and I don't want people making me uncomfortable. I have found most things in life involving being social with a group, typically, make me feel very uncomfortable.

Don't get me wrong either, I want friends, I want to be comfortable and accepted just as much as anybody, and it's very difficult to obtain because of my crippling social anxiety, and it's unfortunate because I see a lot of aspies judging aspies for their poor social skills or them "staying in their comfort zone." Fact is, I would love to meet friends who are accepting and I feel comfortable around. I'd love to learn a new skill, I'd love to have a good time and to show others a good time, platonic or not - it just hasn't happened. And finding such people is very difficult to do for me. It's not as if I don't try, I encourage myself and anyone with autism to go out in the world and keep trying no matter what happens, every experience is a good one, because even bad experiences we can learn from and ensure we never repeat them, but because of how crippling asperger's can really be for some of us, I can fully understand why they'd want to go on the internet and vent. I have had good experiences and met some rad people, but I'm not going to dedicate my life to being social because it's just really not my thing.

This is the hardest part about asperger's syndrome - we all look and act normal, we appear normal to the rest of society, but we're not. We're far from it. We're judged as lazy, unmotivated entitled pricks and for the most part, that doesn't describe us at all. You'll read posts that may appear as such, like this one: http://www.wrongplanet.net/posts253238-start180.html where the user has clearly had a rough life as a result of asperger's syndrome. He tries to explain it, but does not know how to accurately explain how he feels and why. Everyone is quick to judge him and call him an entitled lazy prick, and I highly, highly doubt that's actually him or how he feels about himself, or his approach to life. Like myself, or most of us, we've been judged adversely for our asperger's, or HFA, or LFA.

I promise you, anybody who appears to "hide behind a computer" has tried and either failed or been hurt by somebody and just doesn't want to do it again. I wish this community would stop judging others so harshly for what they see as being "entitled or lazy" because there's good reasons for it that could be corrected with kindness and acceptance, which, is lacking severely. I also admit to being a bit of a hypocrit in this regard - I do apologize to anyone I've tried to belittle for whatever reason, I'm sure I have.