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AceofKnaves
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25 May 2014, 2:12 pm

I'm going to chalk up to some of the "trendiness" to the New Car syndrome. What I mean by this is, ever bought yourself a car. Like for example a Caprise. At first you never see anyone ride a Caprise in your Saturn, then you get a Caprise and you see Caprise after Caprise after Caprise on the road. It seems trendy because people become aware of something when they have experience with something. I hope to god that makes sense.



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25 May 2014, 2:28 pm

AceofKnaves wrote:
I'm going to chalk up to some of the "trendiness" to the New Car syndrome. What I mean by this is, ever bought yourself a car. Like for example a Caprise. At first you never see anyone ride a Caprise in your Saturn, then you get a Caprise and you see Caprise after Caprise after Caprise on the road. It seems trendy because people become aware of something when they have experience with something. I hope to god that makes sense.


Yes that makes sense. I was thinking the same thing.



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25 May 2014, 2:43 pm

Acedia wrote:
btbnnyr wrote:
I would say that ASD traits are verry merry berry common amongst scientists


Interesting, have you noticed any trends in scientific disciplines people with autistic traits are attracted to?

Also would you say being from a wealthy background can make being on the spectrum easier to accomplish goals? I imagine most scientists came from fairly good backgrounds. I know that Donald Triplett did better than others diagnosed, but his family were quite wealthy.


I'm not sure, since there is big mix in each field, but my guesstimate is more in physics, chemistry, and engineering. Also, the prevalence is not the same at each institution. Different places select and attract different people.

There was a study showing that college students with ASD had highest prevalence of STEM majors (~34%), greater than general population (~23%) and other disability groups. There was big gender gap, such that 39% of male ASD had STEM major vs. 3% of female ASD, while the difference in general population is 29% male, 15% female. The college enrollment rate was 43% for ASD, which had third lowest rate amongst disability groups (learning disability, speech/language impairment, hearing impairment, visual impairment, orthopedic impairment, other health impairment, traumatic brain injury, intellectual disability, multiple disability), and higher than ID and MD. The highest rates were in hearing, vision impairment, 64%. Enrollment was correlated with family income for ASD. This study included only ASD students who had received special education services for ASD in high school.

On the question of accomplishing goals, the correlation of college enrollment with family income is not surprising, but the reasons are probably very complicated in the money factors (<$25000, 25000-50000, 50000-75000 in the study, so we're not talking all that rich) and the cognition/behavior of the parents and interplay of these with school and society, and the child's own traits. Amongst the people I know, most come from middle class backgrounds, not rich.


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25 May 2014, 2:44 pm

Adamantium wrote:
As for trendy, I see people say it but I don't believe it. There might be some people who want any excuse to think they are "special" but I never met anyone who wanted to be bad a communicating with other people and never really be a part of any community.

I am absolutely certain none of them would trade places with me. They don't want this. Whatever the trendy things is it isn't having aspergers.


I also think Aspergers isn't trendy. But I do think that media coverage of Aspergers is trendy, and that's not a good thing. Well it would be a good thing if they did it properly, but as previously said, Aspergers is mainly shown as little-professors-with-some-behavioural-problems children. They definitely downplay the problems. A hugely important part of the diagnosis is that it affects your day to day life in a negative way. Being quirky, a star trek nerd who likes routine and is bad at small talk just doesn't do it.

I recently saw a 'documentary' from the BBC (!) which followed a woman who thought her husband had AS because he liked to be on his own, do routine tasks and disliked parties. She didn't think it was normal, because he didn't act like her and got him diagnosed. WHY? HOW?

My sensory issues can be bad enough that I start to vomit because I am wearing the wrong t-shirt. I can only interact with my own age group through a structured activity and I panic when someone I know waves at me while passing on the street. My life is impaired by Aspergers and even though it makes me who I am, There are definite features that I would give an arm to go without. The media should stop portraying Asperger's as the quirky professor's syndrome and just give the facts. That should also stop those parents for pushing a diagnosis onto their kids without thinking hard about it.

(sorry for the rant)


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25 May 2014, 4:03 pm

AlienorAspie wrote:

I think we need people to "come out" in a way, to change the stereotype of mental health problems of all sorts.


I agree but it is really difficult. Recently on another website (a website not about autism) I mentioned that I had noticed a known person has personality traits and reactions typical of Aspergers ... well it didn't go too well. Quite a few of them (and they are all good people) jumped on me as if I had said something really bad, as if I had insulted the person (whom I really like and respect) while in reality I didn't mean it in a negative way at all. The vast majority of people who understood and didn't get upset about it were the ones who have kids who have Aspergers (or autism in general) or have AS themselves. And I ended up posting many messages about it, explaining some things, I even sent people here (to WP) hoping maybe they would look at some of Alex's videos or read some articles or blogs, etc. Even the owner of this other website, who is a great guy, posted about how disrespectful it was to comment about this other person's personality. I was a really long argument, that ended up with half the people arguing with the other half and either standing up for me or calling me disabled, saying things like "just because you are disabled doesn't mean you have to project this into another person", etc. I ended up really upset and crying and I told them so too. I had to calm down and when I did I apologised about mentioning the person's personality because after the reactions I realised that it was a touchy subject and that it was better to avoid the subject (but again I repeat, my comments were not meant to be negative at all, I simply noticed certain traits, that I think are one of the reasons this known person was misunderstood by other people). Anyway it was a big mess and I am still on the verge of crying just thinking about it.

Despite this tho, I still replied to the other people who saw our messages afterwards, either to thank them (for kind comments) or to explain further (when their comments were as prejudiced as some of the first ones who replied).


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25 May 2014, 4:09 pm

btbnnyr wrote:
Acedia wrote:
btbnnyr wrote:
I would say that ASD traits are verry merry berry common amongst scientists


Interesting, have you noticed any trends in scientific disciplines people with autistic traits are attracted to?

Also would you say being from a wealthy background can make being on the spectrum easier to accomplish goals? I imagine most scientists came from fairly good backgrounds. I know that Donald Triplett did better than others diagnosed, but his family were quite wealthy.


I'm not sure, since there is big mix in each field, but my guesstimate is more in physics, chemistry, and engineering. Also, the prevalence is not the same at each institution. Different places select and attract different people.

There was a study showing that college students with ASD had highest prevalence of STEM majors (~34%), greater than general population (~23%) and other disability groups. There was big gender gap, such that 39% of male ASD had STEM major vs. 3% of female ASD, while the difference in general population is 29% male, 15% female. The college enrollment rate was 43% for ASD, which had third lowest rate amongst disability groups (learning disability, speech/language impairment, hearing impairment, visual impairment, orthopedic impairment, other health impairment, traumatic brain injury, intellectual disability, multiple disability), and higher than ID and MD. The highest rates were in hearing, vision impairment, 64%. Enrollment was correlated with family income for ASD. This study included only ASD students who had received special education services for ASD in high school.

On the question of accomplishing goals, the correlation of college enrollment with family income is not surprising, but the reasons are probably very complicated in the money factors (<$25000, 25000-50000, 50000-75000 in the study, so we're not talking all that rich) and the cognition/behavior of the parents and interplay of these with school and society, and the child's own traits. Amongst the people I know, most come from middle class backgrounds, not rich.


My friend is a scientist at a big research firm in California, where they have different kind of scientists doing different types of research, himself he is a molecular biologist. Anyway I was just telling you what he told me.


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25 May 2014, 7:37 pm

^
There are also those studies showing that more kids of engineers have ASD kids than kids of parents in other professions and I've seen a profusion of studies showing muchhigher rates of ASD traits and slightly higher rates of the disorder among Mathematicians, scientists and engineers. A lot of Ted Talks about autism discuss them. Having ASD traits isn't the same as having ASD though.



Last edited by daydreamer84 on 25 May 2014, 8:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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25 May 2014, 8:04 pm

Xfilesgeek wrote:
As for "difference verses disability," as far as I'm concerned, autism is an impairment. If you are not impaired, you do not have autism. Period.


I agree.[/quote]I agree with this too. I guess we also have to define what "impaired" means.

Here is the definition I found.

impaired
  Use Impaired in a sentence
impaired
[im-paird]
adjective
1.
weakened, diminished, or damaged: impaired hearing; to rebuild an impaired bridge.
2.
functioning poorly or inadequately: Consumption of alcohol results in an impaired driver.
3.
deficient or incompetent (usually preceded by an adverb or noun): morally impaired; sports-impaired.

By this definition, I know that in many ways I am impaired. And I had no idea how impaired I was until other people had told me and they continue to tell me. The problem is that if you don't know me well you won't see me in enough situations to see my impairments because I can mask a lot. Or if my being impaired might make people insecure or make them look bad, they will insist that I m not impaired and they can argue with me and insist on it because I look so normal and I appear so capable at first glance. I can also appear very capable and I can be in some ways and for a long time. But in many other ways I am not. So someone like my mother will argue til she is blue in the face that I am not impaired. But my social track record, my employment record, the difficulties I have in my relationships, the fact that I can look at the DSM5 criteria and see how I can show lots of examples in my life now and in my childhood about each one of the criteria and how each of those examples have affected my life in a negative and sometimes debilitating way, show that yes, in fact, I am actually impaired.

But I definitely agree that if someone just has some issues that might make him quirky but that person is not actually impaired, then placing him in the same boat as those who are impaired is really not fair at all. And I also believe that if the quirkiness and impairment do not fall within the criteria of the DSM5 definition, than that person cannot be autistic.


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25 May 2014, 8:16 pm

daydreamer84 wrote:
^
There are also those studies showing that more kids of engineers have ASD kids than kids of parents in other professions and I've seen a profusion of studies showing higher rates of ASD rates and slightly higher rates of the disorder among Mathematicians, scientists and engineers. A lot of Ted Talks about autism discuss them. Having ASD traits isn't the same as having ASD though.


About the studies you mentioned: its very possible, and I will take your word for it, because I have no idea, I was just quoting my friend who told me that the majority of his scientist co-workers have many traits of Aspergers/Autism. And true, having ASD traits isn't the same as being diagnosed with ASD. In fact I think a lot of people who have managed to fit in (society) well enough (for example they managed to get, and keep, a job), may very well never seek a diagnosis ... which doesn't mean that they don't have ASD tho, and that it hasn't affected their life. I have a loved one who was also diagnosed with Aspergers, he still have trouble in certain areas, for example he could never join a football team because of the way he runs, he also has trouble with certain things, like tying knots, and other issues, but he has a high IQ and a phenomenal memory, while also being good at computer programming and learning very quickly. And he got a job and is doing great. And even better, he gets along really well with his boss (God knows how difficult it can be when the boss or co-workers are acting like jerks, it can ruin everything - in fact he lost his first job because of this, a co-worker manager, who was an a*****le, and also didn't understand that he had to give him precise instructions, not vague instructions, he said something like "he is slow" ... but he is far from slow, he just needs correct/precise instructions ... for example if you tell him "go there" don't just point at it, tell him where is "there" exactly).


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25 May 2014, 8:35 pm

^^^
I wasn't responding to you in particular, just to the discussion of ASD traits in scientists in general. Well , yes, of course it's possible that there are undiagnosed scientists with ASD who just found their niche. However, there are a lot of people who have some of the ASD genes and some of the ASD traits but do NOT HAVE ASD and I believe most of the scientists in those studies would fall into that category.



Last edited by daydreamer84 on 25 May 2014, 8:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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25 May 2014, 8:37 pm

Quote:
If you're at me laughing right now, thats what's bothering me.


Heavens no, this is our respite, to be with people like ourselves, people who suffer the same way. One of the few places I feel I can say the truth.

By the way, I have a master's degree in electrical engineering.



JerryM
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25 May 2014, 10:29 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
JerryM wrote:
And as far as disability/difference goes, the way I look at it is "disabled" means you CAN'T do something. Someone who lost their legs is disabled, cause they can't walk. Someone who is blind in one eye is disabled cause they can't use it. With ASD, you can still do everything an NT can do, though you'll face obstacles along the way. But you can still do it (though I really don't care if you call me disabled or different, those are just my views).


Everything? Not really.


Can you name something that someone with Autism/Aspergers cannot do under any circumstances? I'm not talking about something that's made more difficult, rather, something that cannot be done that a NT could do?

AlienorAspie wrote:
JerryM wrote:
And as far as disability/difference goes, the way I look at it is "disabled" means you CAN'T do something. Someone who lost their legs is disabled, cause they can't walk. Someone who is blind in one eye is disabled cause they can't use it. With ASD, you can still do everything an NT can do, though you'll face obstacles along the way. But you can still do it (though I really don't care if you call me disabled or different, those are just my views).


So is someone who lost their legs, but then got prosthetic ones, still disabled?

I feel like if you lose your legs you can do something physical to un-do that, but Autism is a whole different ball-game. If you have so much going on in your head every time you try to make a decision, like which washing powder to use, and you need to make hundreds of those decisions every day then you're brain function will be harmed. Going to the supermarket, for example, is an essential part of life and can FEEL impossible- you have to consciously think about all of these things at the same time-

*walking and appearing "normal".
*Controlling stims under bright lights and stress
*pushing the trolley around corners without twisting too much and pulling a back muscle! i cannot work out how people do this so easily!
*remembering and organising a list in your head or remembering to refer to your list (even making the list may have taken an hour, and it still might be missing the only 2 essential things you need)
*looking out for people smiling/interacting with you and working out if you know them (you dont want to seem rude by not recognising them) and reacting appropriately either way.
*Finding the product you are looking for in the aisle
*working out where other people would have categorised the product you need- the arrangement may seem illogical to you and you will spend hours looking in the DIY section when you should be in the pet section. When you realise what you did, you will always think "argh how did I get that wrong?" and feel annoyed at yourself on top of it all.
*when choosing a product you have to think of everything you know about each option while you whittle your options down. (I look for deals first, but then check if there are others that are cheaper by the kilo (and im pretty slow at mental arithmetic) then I check the ingredients. If im allergic to it then I start the whole process again. If I'm not, I will then doubt whether I need the product, sometimes deciding I dont when I do. I sometimes find myself just zoning-out, staring at a product in my hand for too long).

The checkout- the worst bit. If I am so exhausted that if I cant get into a focused "quick-mode" then I feel the whole queue's eyes on me, analysing how fast I'm going. The cashier will probably be asking lots of questions too, and then I need to decide how to pay and not forget my handbag/card when I leave.

I seem to do it all with a smile on my face and just a few stims. But I will suffer the consequences when I get home and have to put it all away when I just want to sit with a heavy blanket wrapped around my legs (extremely fatigued and needing the sensory stuff I guess). After all that, and £100 spent, my boyfriend will notice the ingredients are next-to-useless because we cant make more than one meal from the lot... and neither of us can be bothered to cook anyway... so we get a takeaway.

I'm not sure how I can ever do all of what a person is expected to do without negative consequences, or be un-disabled, or absolved from having to do each step, no matter how hard I try. How do you stop your brain from thinking too much? As I get older there is more information in there to process, and my body is more tired.

There is no accommodation, other than physical human assistance, that could make it easy. I dont like internet shopping because I dont like people coming to the house. I might give it a go again soon though.


You bring up a fantastic point and one I only realized after typing this out. You're right that a legless person could get prosthetic legs and I honestly did not think that one out. Sorry. But I still stand by my definition of disabled = unable to do something rather than has difficulty doing something, even though the example I used wasn't quite right.

And to be honest, while it is more difficult to do everyday things, you can still do them, though with some difficulty. I understand where you're coming from in that it's really difficult when your mind starts overanalyzing and you start to feel overwhelmed. And what I do, though it may not work for some people, is imagine songs that I enjoy. Soon, I start to hear them and I start to forget about worries.



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25 May 2014, 11:47 pm

A disability is not a complete inability to do something. That is wrong. Here is the definition of disability from Merriam Webster:

: a condition (such as an illness or an injury) that damages or limits a person's physical or mental abilities

: the condition of being unable to do things in the normal way : the condition of being disabled


: a program that provides financial support to a disabled person

From: linkdefinition

Definition of difference from the same dictionary:

: the quality that makes one person or thing unlike another

: something that people do not agree about : a disagreement in opinion

: the degree or amount by which things differ

From:
link

Now of course ASD is a difference, no one is contending that. Variations in hair colour and pant size and style of dress are also differences.

ASD is a difference and a disability because it's both a quality setting people apart and a limitation on mental abilities of those afflicted that at the very least renders them unable to do things in the normal way.



Last edited by daydreamer84 on 25 May 2014, 11:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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25 May 2014, 11:57 pm

Rascal77s wrote:
Acedia wrote:
Yes, Asperger Syndrome is trendy. It really and truly is. There's so much romanticism around the condition, and so many people who wrongly self-diagnose. It is a coveted condition. I was diagnosed in early adolescence when no one knew what the condition was, and I never thought this word would become so widespread, and that so many people would claim to also be the same.

Where were these kids back when I was diagnosed? It's over-diagnosed.

Asperger Syndrome has gone from being a developmental disability - where the the person affected has profound difficulties with social integration from the beginning of life, to a condition for people who are socially awkward/depressed/gifted.

It's being used as a catch-all explanation for other mental health issues. And a misapprehension of the criteria means a lot of people like to think they're on the spectrum. Usually over extremely mild traits. A lot of the recently diagnosed on this board admit to not being able to relate to some parts of the criteria, and they also admit to not having many symptoms.

And the usual defence of this, "it's a spectrum" excuse, or you've only met one aspie. If you deviate so much from the criteria, it means you don't have it. All aspies should have two things in common, they fit the criteria (mostly) and have significant impairments.

I honestly believe the rise in the "autism is a difference" activism is because of such people. These people want to re-define autism so they can be included. And there have been papers arguing for AS to be completely thought of as simply as a difference, similarly to homosexuality, all because of their activism. They actually reviewed blogs written by such people and came to the conclusion that AS should no longer be thought of as a disability.

But why these researchers would actually think that these bloggers are representative of the AS community as a whole is erroneous. I sometimes think the diagnosis of Asperger Syndrome can't be justified any more if they going to make it so wide, as to include people who have no developmental issues whatsoever. A separate category is needed. Unfortunately efforts to do this haven't changed anything.

It's AS what people want to get diagnosed with.


I agree. I find the "autism is a difference people, not a disability" particularly annoying. But these days whenever I see an article about ASD the comments are full of people telling me what a wonderful career, life, and spouse they have and that ASD is a difference. Unfortunately, the public read these comments don't think we don't need help. If your life is so wonderful you probably don't have ASD. I'm tired of hearing people say ASD is a gift. It's not a gift, It's a disability.


This makes me laugh, because while my wife loves me, she isn't shy in telling me that I'm very difficult to deal with. I doubt she's wrong. That being said, I think there are ways to see some of the traits as a gift. We think differently than NT's, so our approach to problem solving can create different and possibly better results. How is that not a gift?


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26 May 2014, 12:06 am

daydreamer84 wrote:
Acedia wrote:
That's very true rascal. A large number of AS people don't even post on these forums. I've met HFA people in real life who live in accommodation, are unemployed, and some who work in disability work shops.

Why isn't this side of HFA represented?


I'm going to reply to other posters, but atm busy, just posting this small post.

---


Yeah, I think WP is a skewed sample of people with ASD (skewed toward the milder or borderline end). *This does not mean that there aren't more severe cases here (I know there are) just that, I think, on average, ASDers here tend to be less impaired than ASDers in the general population.

I also agree that autism is a disorder and a disability rather than only a difference.


As has been pointed out already, it's quite possible that people may seem less affected by autism on WP, because like me, the only really comfortable way for them to articulate anything is through writing. I don't need to look at someone on this site and try to take the exhaustive amount of energy needed to figure out what body language is being presented. It's exponentially easier to read a post, type something out as a response, look to see if it makes sense, and then submit. In real life, I can't do that.


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26 May 2014, 3:39 am

JerryM wrote:
[

And to be honest, while it is more difficult to do everyday things, you can still do them, though with some difficulty. I understand where you're coming from in that it's really difficult when your mind starts overanalyzing and you start to feel overwhelmed. And what I do, though it may not work for some people, is imagine songs that I enjoy. Soon, I start to hear them and I start to forget about worries.


Because my body overreacts to chemicals/everything, I CANT eat bananas or I would go into anaphylactic shock. if I wore wool clothing every day I'd die because my skin would just fall off, I'd get eventually get an infection and die.

Even the person with no legs could run- it's just harder for them and painful, and theyd be slower but they could do it. They wouldn't die. I hope I'm not making myself look like I hate people with no legs haha- it's just a good example to be pedantic with :lol:


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