I'm really sick of attacks against NT's here

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I would still like to see an example of what others consider to be "NT bashing."

I disagree. If the differences between NTs and those who are not NT were not significant, they wouldn't be diagnosable. There would be no diagnostic criteria and no need for diagnostic labels for people with neurological differences.



Fair enough, I've noticed your posts here and there and I don't particularly relate to what you have to say either. But what does this have to do with anything being discussed in this thread?



Really? Thanks for settling that question for me, I must be really lucky to have had a professional evaluation done for free by someone on the internet who has never met me before. Uh, wait...you are a professional, right? And exactly how did you evaluate me?

I don't claim to be autistic, I am not sure whether I am clinically autistic or not, but I do have autistic traits.



Understood, and the bolded part I agree with, but again I'm not sure how that is relevant in this discussion. I certainly have not expressed feeling closer - or for that matter, any desire to feel closer - to people who share my neurological patterning. As for this forum, there are a great many people here who write about things I can relate to tremendously, and I am fond of some posters who have been kind to me or whose posts I admire, but I hardly know anyone here on a personal level. That's not to say that I don't wish to know anyone better here, but I haven't really been feeling up to it lately.

I do think my neurological differences are important though, they are important for me to understand myself and how I can function best.

Rampant was used and I was the one who wrote it.

"Autistic superiority is rampant here. If not everyday almost everyday I see NT's only care about social ranking unlike us, NT's lie unlike us, NT's are stupid etc, etc."

This was the thread if you want context
http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt259893.html

It might have been in a different context and the wording was slightly different but the point bieng made is the same as Ezra and littlebee is making

Last edited by ASPartOfMe on 04 Jun 2014, 10:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.

I used to be one of these people, but I have met so many 'crazy' people who didn't have AS, which begged the logical question; 'Just what is 'typical' anyway'?

I also used to be a stubborn misanthrope, until I agreed with many other misanthropes that 'humans suck', so they mustn't 'suck' if they all agreed with me, right?

I still get into trouble for 'overgeneralising', which I cannot help because 'shades of grey' just don't exist for me, and if there's anything that annoys my family the most, it's this.

I have tried to 'learn' to take each human I meet on an 'individual basis' without any pre-conceived notions, but I just can't. I have learning difficulties when it comes to achieving this.

Maybe it's an 'Aspie thing' to tar the rest of society with the brush...but if only I could meet one single NICE person in my life, if only...

I know they are 'out there somewhere' (because I have been told as much) but they must be very rare or something.

I think the inaccurate assumptions are a lot more common than bashing and I agree it comes from black and white thinking. It is an attempt to sort people into two categories. to create a dichotomy where one doesn't really exist. It often comes from somebody asserting that Aspies do a particular thing X and therefore NTs do the opposite thing Y. Often somebody will then post, "I'm Aspie and I don't do X" and somebody else will post "I do Y but I know a lot of NTs who don't". That gets followed by qualifiers such as "I meant 'most', not 'all'" but the assertion still stands that everybody can be sorted into two boxes with slight variations in who gets sorted into which box.

It even happens in the defense of NTs (for those times when there was actual bashing). Somebody will post "Not all NTs are like that, there are good NTs too". But this still assumes everybody can be sorted into two boxes, "bad" or "good" and the qualifier is just that you can't know which box to put somebody in based on diagnosis or lack of diagnosis. But people are more complex than that. A lot more complex. There are gray areas all over the place and certainly within individual humans.

For the record, I am not doing a two-box sort of my own whereby all Aspies do black and white thinking but no NTs do. Not only does black and white thinking happen across all neurologies, it can vary within an individual too and be situational. People are complex.

To me this is stating the obvious. Of course each individual is different and complex and unique in their own right. But it is still useful to notice broad similarities and differences, and broad traits and tendencies and patterns, and to organize this information categorically. That is part of how people develop professional standards for diagnosis. And it is vital for statistical analysis.

It is also something we do as individuals to make sense of the world and our place in it. And each person does it from their own unique vantage point and personal experience. As much as each person is a complex human being, so is their perception and their perspective of the world they live in.

Words are so often inadequate to explain our experiences. The thinking and perception behind a person's words may be much deeper than you realize. A statement may come out as black and white but that doesn't mean there is black and white thinking behind it. Sometimes it is just easier to write that way. It is tedious to use qualifiers, or to attempt to explain every gray area in your perspective (really, who has time for that??) It is simpler to use broad statements and categories, and to speak without stating what is already apparent.

In other words it is easier for the sake of time and simplicity to just say "NTs do this, autistic people do that" and I give everyone here credit for being smart enough to understand that human beings are indeed far more complex than that. I mean, come on, DUH! But I don't know if people are willing extend the same credit to me, or to others here who want to have this kind of discussion about the differences between NTs and autistic people.

It is one thing if you disagree with such statements, or find them inaccurate, but it is quite something else to presume that you know what kind of thinking goes into them. Because, like you said, people are complex.

Imo you are completely missing the point, dianthus, and looking at these concepts in a way that seems to me to be superficial. Making this kind of dichotomy is of course useful for making certain kinds of distinctions...that point has I think already been made here, but the making of the kind of black and white dichotomy and using it habitually and mechanically in group dialogue and in ones thinking as a black and white catch phrase is triggering emotional reactions in certain people and keeping them stuck in their suffering. If you don't see it, too bad, but a lot of other people here DO see it, and that is what they/we are talking about. And since you have not even seen any examples of this on here (according to you:-) and keep harping on this, which examples almost all of these other people talking about this subject obviously have seen, then you do not even know what they are talking about, so how can you even talk about it? And you are expecting these other people to provide you examples of what they are talking about. Maybe if you go look for some yourself it will improve your ability to spot things.

It is very easy to find myriad examples of this even through the search engine here is in some ways flawed as far as I can tell. I am assuming that other people here are not so stupid as me to provide examples when it is so easy to spot, but I am pretty stupid, so maybe I will. I have to think about it, though, as I am not sure I want to get hooked into working for you, as I have my own important Work to do.

Do you want the entire forum to tiptoe around these people to avoid upsetting them?

Is this a fogging comment or what??, as actually it makes no sense at all.

Here is what I wrote, this time in bold.



It sounds to me like your aim to deflect this particular topic of conversation and say that the situation people are talking about doesn't even exist. Therefore, as I suggested before, there must be something very important to you about doing this. I am guessing you think it is harming autistic people by trying to keep them from speaking or maybe an attempt to take away their individuality by implying that sutistic people are not as different from so called nt's as they like to think, and that this is discounting the very real suffering they have endured and are enfuring because they were and are different. This makes some kind of sense, but a person needs to find his own words and try to talk about it. He cannot just erase what other people are saying by saying that the points they are trying to make don't even exist. That would be magical thinking, and imo a form of autsitc thinking. I have done a lot of it, which is why I was a little girl and not an adult women most of my life, so I know something about it.,

What does "fogging" mean?

Because if you say twice and BOLD it, it makes sense the second time~

I agree with you.

It's gotten to the point where I'm mind blocking said people.

I apologise for my interjection and sticking my nose in this conversation, but seeing as how the question remains unanswered...

'Fogging' is an argument technique I often use to avoid confrontation or discussing any issue directly.

It usually involves telling other people what they want to hear, even though you disagree with them, just to shut them up and make them go away.

It also involves agreeing with them 'in words' even though your mind is going 'what a stupid, arrogant a***hole'.

'So, I am an idiot eh?
Yeah, you are right. I am stupid and I know nothing...I don't deserve to live and I should kill myself tomorrow...I am just a waste of space and a total blight on the face of the planet...do you have anything further to add to this?'

Being able to do this, requires the total ability to depersonalise, transcend and to detach emotion from intellect, because your normal, neurotypical person would just start fighting back and clashing their huge ego, but this is what the instigator wants....this is what they are baiting out and waiting for...so why in hell give them any satisfaction....why?

Let them punch a cloud until they either see the folly of their actions, or simply go 'you're just too unreasonable to talk to/totally effing insane' (take your pick).

Nobody...NOBODY argues with me anymore because they know they cannot 'win'...it's not a race...it's not a comparison of wit....I either get 'talked to' or 'ignored'....mostly the latter...

...and this, this my dear friend is known as the 'art of fogging' that I have now taught you.

For everybody else arguing and fighting on this thread, I have a simple question for you all...

If given the choice where nobody ever talks to you, or everybody is arrogantly disagreeable, abusive and irritating, which would you choose? Honestly?

Be thankful people consider you 'important' enough to actually waste their time on/with you.

Diagnostically, but you write about NTs like they are alien and they're not.



You aren't diagnosed and according to your other posts it's invisible. My autism isn't invisible, and I've been known to psychologists/therapists since I was a child because of my difficulties. And I'm not from a wealthy socio-economic background, or had the privilege for the best kinds of help.

I don't think autism is invisible at all if you have it.



Everyone in the general population has autistic traits, according to some researchers. So what really delineates you from those "alien" NTs? Your ADHD?



Assuming I meant it on a personal level.



That's not what I mean, important in the sense that it means I should be considered some kind of "other". I think most of us on the spectrum want to be treated the same, and not thought of as alien and otherworldly. I do anyway.

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Well, I don't spend a lot of time here and that's probably a good thing. I don't get along with a whole lot of people. I'm a sci-fi and comic book geek as well as a bit of a gamer, and I can hardly stand the few other people in those communities. I'm glad I'm not actually a member of a forum on those things. I used to be and ran into the same problems. A lot of in-fighting. Personalities clashing. It was quite funny at times.

"Oh, that's a stupid theory."
"Did you just call me stupid?"

Bless. People don't just ignore little attacks like that or take things less personally.

So, I basically see all people the same. Sometimes I'm a little bit too trusting of certain groups. I'm on an ADHD forum for example and sometimes I think that they will always be open minded, but no, I've been attacked in there. It's only on occasion and I now know not to look up to the members there as saints. I developed much of my empathetic ability and further understanding of human emotions/social skills there.

This forum is probably the only place I can talk to others with autism and I have to let a lot of emotions go that get started up in me from posts read here. Sometimes I just stay away because much of the arguments I see in here are in the real world.

I think in Ezra's case, in that school he was in, when you're in a group when you are all more or less the same then anything slightly different becomes a target. I saw that in the Occupy Movement. I couldn't understand it. I have been a bully myself in my younger years too. Not a terrible one, more like an offline troll. Just calling out stuff, scaring children. "There there, we all make mistakes. Let's move on." - as Leonard from The Big Bang Theory says.

One thing that does make me laugh though is when I see people on the ADHD forum complaining about NTs. I just feel like saying 'aren't you guys NTs?' Well, they're closer to NTs than us. The way I talk about NTs is to compare differences in how our brains work. I'm endlessly fascinated by how differently some of them do things to me. I dunno, maybe one day I'll compile a list.

I seem to be writing a lot of useless stuff tonight, and I'm missing Adventure Time.

I am sick and tired of prejudice, attacks and discrimination against:

People who are:

Not NT
Black
Disabled
Different
Not from the Hominid family

...Anywhere and everywhere.