Are you trans-neurological?

Post Reply New Topic

I agree with this - to a point. I've met far too many NT people who've used that against me as a way to force / enforce neurotypical behavior and compliance to their expectations. "Don't stim, just accept it is wrong and shameful to yourself and the whole family" - that sort of thing. I can't accept / respect their irrational viewpoint when it causes me actual harm.

At least you got an explanation LOL My hands just got smacked and told not to do it. "Stop fidgeting" were the buzz words back in those days.

this is too simplistic; this only work when it's fine . lack of understanding cause fear. fear creates hate and other negative emotions. Which can even result in death. This might be okay when your relationships are fine, but it definitely isn't when there is a problem.Also, there is a difference between a quirk and someone being deliberately annoying; someone can have an ill behavior because of his past, while someone else might just be a spoiled kid who never had to question anything about himself.without understanding where it comes from, there is no way to know how to deal with it fairly; someone behaving like an idiot because he was traumatized by something isn't the same as someone thinking hat the whole world must obey him, and without understanding you cannot know how to deal with it. You may even hurt the one with the trauma somehow.

While this advice isn't bad, but it just cannot apply in a lot of situations. When your relationships are fair and square it's ok. But relationships are often not. People do not live alone and they need each other to grow up and learn. A romantic relationship would be a great example. If the person don't want to talk to you but don't tell you the why because you "should figure it yourself" (as in "figure out what you did which is bad"); if you don't understand the person's past and priorities or just "accept it", you're screwed. Hard. Also, people need reasons.
People have some expectations. Example, a lot of people already have an idea of what they want their family life with their kids to look like. If it turns out to be completely different, of course you just have to accept it, what's done is done, but understanding WHY it happens is also important. If only to know that it's ot your fault (example: a mother with a kid that has a "mental illness" who don't know if it's her fault because she was drinking while she was pregnant and has a sense of guilt because of this). the same thing apply to people; do your kids don't hug you because they don't "like you" like some other kids do? Is it because you are not doing well enough as a mother compared to other and they don't need you? Is he just selfish and only care about himself and you're just a food dispenser for him? Dos he have some problems expressing himself that could hurt him too like not enough confidence? Does he think thatit would annoy YOU? Is it for some other reason?
Did the person who just gave you a punch when you made a joke about something REALLY went too far, or does he have a reason to because to him it was a sensitive topic and you didn't know it?
Some of these questions can result in a life or death scenario at work or in private life, sometimes for many people if the person has a lot of responsabilities. They can also ruin relationships and the life of one people, or even a lot of people by proxy. Rolling with it is the easy way to go, but it's also the easy way to screw up.
Certainly, your mother is right, it's effective when everything is fine. The problem is that if you don't try to understand you may have difficulties differentiating "fine" relationships and "unfine" ones, especially with social codes for NT encouraging white lies and saying thing you don't think (basically the classical "Do I look good" example in another context.). If you don't try to get why someone want to kill himself even if it's "irrational" in his case.... well, goodbye.
His isolation isn't going to go away for a while.
Also, understanding others and oneself helps to create coping strategies. If your autistic kid make a mess in public and you learn that it's because it's too noisy, you can get him earplugs. if he doesn't want to eat x? If you don't go farther on the "why" (meanfing asking is it just because of the texture or something else) how would you know if it's just because he's picky or because of an allergy? Is your girlfriend always saying that [x] is hot because she kind is kind of "easygoing", or just to pick on you, and to go farther than that if it's because she's easygoing, do you really have the same idea of what a relationship is? Etc. Not getting all of this can mean ruining something that would perfectly work on a misunderstanding from your part... so yeah.

And yes, NT do this a lot, and aspies using logic without dissociating from a way too heavy self too (and ironically both view the other as selfish...eh.). That's the basis of empathy after all. Empathy isn't magical; at its core it's projection yourself with YOUR values on the others, or rather iff YOU were the other person so it's a bit different, but it's still limited but the data you have access to; if you don't know something because of, say, cultural differences or something terrible, it screws up (hence the creation of ethnocultural empathy). Of course if you take your own paradigm as a basis to judge the other you will have trouble understanding what "pathway" creates his answer.
Understanding isn't always needed to change; it can be needed in order to accept. And more than anything in order to avoid misunderstandings; I swear that misunderstandings must probably be the #1 source of conflicts in this world.

And the offensive part is relative too. Look at a lot of people on tumblr. Some find it offensive that white people can have dreadlocks because it's "cultural attribution". Sure you don't need to understand, but it still help in order to know if you've REALLY done something bad, or if you're offensive yourself toward the freedom of the person. It goes both way.Just because you're offende, it doesn't mean you're "right", some people somewhere in the world are probably offended by the fact that we consider black people equal to white people. Understanding why the person is offended helps filtering a lot. Ultimately if we lived in a world of carebear all of this would world, but sadly, we don't. And despite this we need to live together, all of us, so in order to avoid chaos (both the usual and the scientific meaning) trying to get how the other works is a bit necessary, otherwise everything would be permitted. And i'm not saying that we HAVE TO do what people and the society say (since it's often very wrong and biased in the first place; see, gender equality, on BOTH sides depending of what you're talking about.), but being blinded by your own belief is never good



You don't say. My late diagnosis was actually kind of because of this. My family HATE psychology (something I can understand; there are good ones but there are also a LOT of psy making arbitrary decisions because to them it's this, period, sometimes without even really thinking about the person; the autism centers where I live (in France) is terrible. And since my self-worth was close to nil, I basically spent many, many years living ONLY on the "x = right. y =wrong because THAT'S what's logical, because, period" from my family without daring to talk back of think about what would be best/what I would want to, because I was scared of doing things wrong and of other things. Living like that for so long because of it, not knowing any other way to live, playing a role h24 because othersise "I wouldn't be normal so it's bad" and not being myself for all this time REALLY was a hard time.

Last edited by elkeryos on 31 Dec 2015, 2:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.

I think the thing to keep in mind is that it is an NT world. So, when in Rome, do as the Romans. No, it's not easy. Yes, it's emotionally crushing at times. But there are certain social conventions that do smooth the way. Whether you agree or not, there are some things that really are that simplistic. I choose to look at NTs this way: It is a different culture. I have a great deal of experience with that. So I am using that platform to build upon. But, there are very few people who can instruct me on the ways of the NT culture. I don't mind trying to bend a bit more if I can get an idea of where and how to bend. And, if I cannot bend anymore, then I will find ways to express that as well. But I need that interpreter.

Just because it is an NT world; it doesn't mean that NTs are right. Some important changes have sometimes been creted by "minorities" compared to the others; moreover, if it ends up with NTs hurting themselves or others because of how they tend to enforce what they want rather than understand each other's differences, it's not the best even for them. The quote about Rome is fine, but it needs to be taken with a grain of salt; the whole world isn't simplistic enough to be summed up by this. Some changes can be done even if you are not the "dominating thing" otherwise a lot of things wouldn't have changed through history; boh history - history, and science history. While it IS more comfortable to just go with the flow, if a tendancy is never questioned, it'll never be examined. And the world as it is now when it comes to social is far from perfect with discriminations and all which are all directly or indirectly related to this self-centric and enforcing tendancy; hardly a role model to follow witout questioning.
And I'm fine with it too since I have no choice, but when this results in hurting other, innocent people, probably NTs too, who didn't ask for anything, I draw the line. Social conventions are not always "right" even between NTs and there is no reason to say that they are right if they are not. The freedom to do want you want because of how YOU perceive things YOURSELF rather than trying to understand the other's view doesn't justify everything. One man's liberty ends where another's begins, after all.
And I'm not even talking onlyabout NT toward aspies. this is also about NTs toward NTs. Social conventions are nice and all, but even among NTs they are different from somewhere to somewhere else, therefore they don't understand each others and don't even try (religion is a good, and sad, example), rather trying to enforce their values.
Back to the topic of the thread, therefore I'm very well conscious that a lot of aspies are idiots enforcing their pseudo-logic without caring about how valid it is too, but in my case having what I think destroyed again and again certainly helped when it comes to question everything including what I think about, say, someone, and if I may be wrong about this person in order to truly understand. So yeah, I wouldn't dream of changing it.

Did not say they were, did not say they weren't. Did say that SOME things are that simple. And what you are debating is also applicable to people on the spectrum.

That also goes for people on the spectrum.

Kinda funny you just used my argument about cultural differences to try to justify your position. Just because it is different does not invalidate it. Nothing you have mentioned is limited to NTs.

Where are the lines drawn and at level of conformity would be required to accomplish what you want? There is no panacea for the ailments of humanity. Humanity is deeply flawed on so many levels. But, where are those lines drawn? There are those on the boards that find even pleasantries offensive.

Last edited by zkydz on 31 Dec 2015, 3:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Again, no panacea. I can't even tell if you're just on a rant or just want things your way, or what? Some things can really be that simple.

The bottom line is this: the original post is nonsense at best, and hurtful to LGBT folks at worst.

If you're born a diabetic it is assumed that if someone could wave a magic wand over your head to make you nondiabetic you would want that. So for a diabetic to yearn for their diabetes to magically vanish does not make the diabetic "Trans [anything]" by way of analogy to "transgender" people.

If you're born female (or male) its assumed that you dont want to be cured of that. The obvious reason being that being born female (or male) is not thought of as being a pathological condition the way diabetes is.

Like it or not aspergers/autism is analogous to diabetes, not to gender.

Therefore "wishing you werent autistic/aspie" is not analogous to "wishing you were another gender". Its analogous to any ill person wanting to be healthy. Its the assumed mindset of anyone with the condition.

So it makes no sense for ASD person to say that they are "transneurological" by analogy to "transgender" folks if they want to not be an ASD person.

Granted that some ASD folks are happy being ASD and manage to carve out niches in society. But that doesnt change what I am saying.

I can agree with this. I do like the analogy of ASD and Diabetes.

[quote="elkeryos"]

this is too simplistic; this only work when it's fine . lack of understanding cause fear. fear creates hate and other negative emotions. Which can even result in death. This might be okay when your relationships are fine, but it definitely isn't when there is a problem.Also, there is a difference between a quirk and someone being deliberately annoying; someone can have an ill behavior because of his past, while someone else might just be a spoiled kid who never had to question anything about himself.without understanding where it comes from, there is no way to know how to deal with it fairly; someone behaving like an idiot because he was traumatized by something isn't the same as someone thinking hat the whole world must obey him, and without understanding you cannot know how to deal with it. You may even hurt the one with the trauma somehow.

While this advice isn't bad, but it just cannot apply in a lot of situations. When your relationships are fair and square it's ok. But relationships are often not. People do not live alone and they need each other to grow up and learn. A romantic relationship would be a great example. If the person don't want to talk to you but don't tell you the why because you "should figure it yourself" (as in "figure out what you did which is bad"); if you don't understand the person's past and priorities or just "accept it", you're screwed. Hard. Also, people need reasons.
People have some expectations. Example, a lot of people already have an idea of what they want their family life with their kids to look like. If it turns out to be completely different, of course you just have to accept it, what's done is done, but understanding WHY it happens is also important. If only to know that it's ot your fault (example: a mother with a kid that has a "mental illness" who don't know if it's her fault because she was drinking while she was pregnant and has a sense of guilt because of this). the same thing apply to people; do your kids don't hug you because they don't "like you" like some other kids do? Is it because you are not doing well enough as a mother compared to other and they don't need you? Is he just selfish and only care about himself and you're just a food dispenser for him? Dos he have some problems expressing himself that could hurt him too like not enough confidence? Does he think thatit would annoy YOU? Is it for some other reason?
Did the person who just gave you a punch when you made a joke about something REALLY went too far, or does he have a reason to because to him it was a sensitive topic and you didn't know it?
Some of these questions can result in a life or death scenario at work or in private life, sometimes for many people if the person has a lot of responsabilities. They can also ruin relationships and the life of one people, or even a lot of people by proxy. Rolling with it is the easy way to go, but it's also the easy way to screw up.
Certainly, your mother is right, it's effective when everything is fine. The problem is that if you don't try to understand you may have difficulties differentiating "fine" relationships and "unfine" ones, especially with social codes for NT encouraging white lies and saying thing you don't think (basically the classical "Do I look good" example in another context.). If you don't try to get why someone want to kill himself even if it's "irrational" in his case.... well, goodbye.
His isolation isn't going to go away for a while.
Also, understanding others and oneself helps to create coping strategies. If your autistic kid make a mess in public and you learn that it's because it's too noisy, you can get him earplugs. if he doesn't want to eat x? If you don't go farther on the "why" (meanfing asking is it just because of the texture or something else) how would you know if it's just because he's picky or because of an allergy? Is your girlfriend always saying that [x] is hot because she kind is kind of "easygoing", or just to pick on you, and to go farther than that if it's because she's easygoing, do you really have the same idea of what a relationship is? Etc. Not getting all of this can mean ruining something that would perfectly work on a misunderstanding from your part... so yeah.

And yes, NT do this a lot, and aspies using logic without dissociating from a way too heavy self too (and ironically both view the other as selfish...eh.). That's the basis of empathy after all. Empathy isn't magical; at its core it's projection yourself with YOUR values on the others, or rather iff YOU were the other person so it's a bit different, but it's still limited but the data you have access to; if you don't know something because of, say, cultural differences or something terrible, it screws up (hence the creation of ethnocultural empathy). Of course if you take your own paradigm as a basis to judge the other you will have trouble understanding what "pathway" creates his answer.
Understanding isn't always needed to change; it can be needed in order to accept. And more than anything in order to avoid misunderstandings; I swear that misunderstandings must probably be the #1 source of conflicts in this world.

And the offensive part is relative too. Look at a lot of people on tumblr. Some find it offensive that white people can have dreadlocks because it's "cultural attribution". Sure you don't need to understand, but it still help in order to know if you've REALLY done something bad, or if you're offensive yourself toward the freedom of the person. It goes both way.Just because you're offende, it doesn't mean you're "right", some people somewhere in the world are probably offended by the fact that we consider black people equal to white people. Understanding why the person is offended helps filtering a lot. Ultimately if we lived in a world of carebear all of this would world, but sadly, we don't. And despite this we need to live together, all of us, so in order to avoid chaos (both the usual and the scientific meaning) trying to get how the other works is a bit necessary, otherwise everything would be permitted. And i'm not saying that we HAVE TO do what people and the society say (since it's often very wrong and biased in the first place; see, gender equality, on BOTH sides depending of what you're talking about.), but being blinded by your own belief is never good[quote/]





I see what you mean there. For example, I notice for some people, for them to accept your apology, you have to understand why you are apologizing. if you are just apologizing because they are upset with you so you are apologizing for them being upset with you, they will not accept it and not see it as a real apology. Even saying "Sorry you got upset with me" tells them you don't really know what you did and for them it's very important you know what you did that got them so upset. Some people won't even tell you what you did wrong because if they tell you, you are very likely to apologize for it and "not mean it" because you didn't know it had upset them and they had to tell you and you still don't understand it, you just accept it had upset them and for them, that isn't good enough.

But I do ask myself where do we draw the line for offense and when to accept things and when to not accept. If someone is offended by the color red, should I take it down to cater those people but what if it causes a trigger due to PTSD, then I would reconsider. But should we all avoid the color red because it might be a trigger for someone out there? Get rid of all the red buildings and the red crayons and red paint and red cars and red everything? Sure if I am typing in messenger and I am use red fonts and the person asks me to change it because it's triggering them due to trauma they had with blood, I would be gladly to change the color for them. But what if the just wanted me to change it because they don't like the color red or because they find it offensive? Do I change it or just simply not change it and think 'too bad" and keep typing in it? I am most likely to change it anyway because I am too worried about being an ass if I don't after being asked politely. But I ask myself when is it okay to not listen and obey and do someone's wishes? It's either I let someone push me around or I am an as*hole.

One time some woman was acting crazy on the train saying how cell phones and computers mess with her head and she all of a sudden shouted "Turn off your computer" at me and I refused because she was acting all bitchy about it. I couldn't understand how can a computer mess with her head. I asked about it on here years back and I got told she was just crazy but an aspie told me on yahoo Messenger it might have been sensory. I was reading rain Reign and the character Rose could hear the cell phones and computer laptops and no one else can hear the humming they make so she also asked politely to her teacher to shut off her phone. I felt bad and wondered what if that woman on the train was ASD, I was just a dumb ass then for being defiant but what if she was polite about it and explained? Would I have turn off my computer then? Saying it messed with her head didn't tell me anything and the way she was acting about it she came off as insane and when she screamed it at everyone on the train. But everyone on here told me she was just crazy so I assume they must not have that sensory issue and not hear the humming in the cell phones and lap tops like Rose did in the book. Or she could have been insane but that was a long time ago. And you're right that people do sometimes need explanations like why we have issues with things so they need to know that we have AS or autism because trying to tell them why without saying we have autism tells them nothing or else they might think we are being entitled or rude or controlling or that we are stupid. Someone did make a post here once about how to talk about their autistic child in a positive way and it was from a blog post she found and we told her why using medical labels is a must and a few people told the OP if someone came to them as a teacher about their child talking that positive about them, they would think the kid was entitled or something and I said if I read that about a kid, I would just think they were quirky and have outside interests and just introverted, I might wonder autism but it wouldn't tell me they were autistic. So that s why we use labels and medical terms for disabilities like impairments or lack of eye contact, difficult with socializing, etc.

Even NTs need explanations and need to know reasons behind things before they do them or comply. I even discovered normal kids also need to know reasons behind things than being told "because I said so" and even NT kids hate being told that too as children because I have seen them say online how much they hated hearing that from their mom or dad. That didn't work with me when I was a kid because I would do it anyway. I would have to see what would happen because they wouldn't tell me. For a while I just thought rules were made to control people and adults have all the power and teachers and they punish kids to get back at them if you do things they don't like and if you make them mad so that was why I followed rules so I wouldn't make anyone mad and get into trouble and have my stuff get taken or being bored by having to sit during recess or in the office or being excluded from fun. But I know now rules are there for a reason and parents and teachers don't want to punish their kids and students but they have to because that is how you teach respect into them and being consistent and kids know their limits. I still tend to think a rule is dumb if I don't know the reason behind it or understand the reason but I still follow the rule or else get a consequence. Whoever made the rule is in charge and they have power and will get back at you if you don't follow it. But now I tell myself things would have been a lot easier if I was told the reason behind the rules because I thought they were there for control and that adults got back at us for making them mad and not doing what they like and doing things they don't like so they got their revenge on us by punishing us so they will enjoy us suffering. But then again if my mom didn't punish me, I would have thought it was a okay thing to do so I needed to be broken and that was with punishments.

I often see my mom tell my son "because I said so" but I don't ever recall her saying that to me and maybe she didn't because it didn't work with me so she didn't do it to my brothers either because she treated us all the same. Plus she is in her sixties so she has less energy and less patience vs when she was in her thirties and forties. I never asked her about it. I only heard that line in Rugrats and seeing aspies say online how their parents always said felt alien to me because I didn't ever recall hearing that in real life. I only remember not being told to do something and not being told why when I would ask why so I would do it anyway. It was my teens when I started to just obey without a reason why because I got tired of getting into trouble. Then I always wonder why couldn't they just say that is what would happen?
But the dilemma is what if the person does't accept the explanation. I didn't always accept them and instead I would just find another solution so I wouldn't have to follow the rule for example, my teacher always wanted answer columns whenever we wrote out math problems and solved them. I thought this was stupid because it was different so I refused to do it and then when i found out it was to make it easier for the teacher to see the answers when they correct them, I started to circle my answers so I wouldn't have to put them in the answer column. I had found the solution to the problem so i wouldn't have to follow the rule. Also another time when I was 14, my mom told me how I shouldn't be calling myself ret*d because kids might think I am making fun of them. I then needed to know the reason why they would think that because that sounded so ridiculous and ludicrous. How are you making fun of other people when you are putting yourself down? That was how ridiculous it sounded when my mom gave me an explanation why I shouldn't be calling myself ret*d. I just thought my mom was being silly, not that is how people actually thought. But my mom probably didn't know why either and she only knew that is how people thought so she couldn't tell me so she was trying to protect me from the bad judgments and wrong conclusions kids could make if I said it in school or said it in the resource room. If I feel that way about myself, does that mean I think that of everyone in the room? That is what those kids could think of me so they might assume I think they're all ret*d and not very smart and think bad of me. But back then I just didn't get it because I had my own perspective and my own thinking and thought everyone would have the same thoughts as me and same perspective.

Of course some things are. The difficult part is knowing WHICH things. Since nobody can be in someone else's head, and some things are not said due to "common courtesy" and social rules, sometimes something may seem simple but in fact were not and it backfire. That's all there is to it. This makes the whole thing complicated since you're on a guess and luck-based game the whole time; is your friend angry with you because he's easily angry and that's ont of his quirks and it'll go away, or did you really do something to anger him this time without noticing it?
Yes, some thing ARE simple, indeed, I agree and that's not what I'm saying at all. What isn't... is knowing which ones since not everyone follow the "saying everything I think" thing.
And none of the two, I'm just discussing the subject, and that's it.
Even if to me saying that it's "simple" is a bit strange since if you take it in the "large picture", it requires knowing the other well enough (and really him, not what you think of him) to know that you don't have to look further for THIS particular thing, which is complicated by itself. Odd choice of word, it feels weird. But this part is certainly just me looking a bit too far into this and that's it.

^^^^^This confirms what I thought before. You are reading your specific experiences into a blanket statement. Nobody has said anything other than "Some Things" are that stimple. Nobody has disagreed about unfairness. But, that was a really long rant on top of the others. Here's the flaw in your logic:
My wife is Chinese. Very traditional Chinese. I have been having a hard time and it's hurt the wallet. Now, she could go off on me in that (And I am mocking the stereotype, not my wife) bad cliche', "Why you no work? You lazy husband..." You get the idea.
Instead she went into the immediate positive cliche. That would be: "My husband is in distress. My family is most important. I have to cover the slack for a while."

She doesn't understand at all. She just sees the distress. She reacted positively. She has become protective. She ain't perfect. But it does show that sometimes, and even at most important times, accepting without understanding is good.

Which isn't nonsense if you think about it; ater all, in the end everyone would like to avoid being hurt(...okay, maybe except for masochists but that's something else); if they are not sure that you know what you did, they you might do it again, and again, and again. It's all self-preservation; quite understandable but yeah sometimes it goes too far.



Same deal with the "changing it anyway" because I don't want to annoy people but it's mainly because my self-esteem is abyssal so I'm not really a great example. Although in the end yeah, pretty much everything is a two-ways road; something often forgotten when it comes to offenses and the likes; and if you don't care about anything and accept everything without wanting to know the "why" behind it, then it means everyone can do pretty much anything. Or the only ones with success will be the ones that only care about themselves. We are 7 billions; do the maths. That wouldn't be pretty. And the problem is that it has REALLY SERIOUS implications; look at censorship or some things about SJW going to far, or a lot of things about equality. Or caricatures, for that matter, in order to take a more serious and ongoing example. This more or less defines most of our social interactions, after all. If you don't know what the other is talking about, you can only either accept everything and being walked on, or refuse everything and look like, or be, an as*hole. It's a pretty serious matter. I guess some relationships might fall into this as well; although adding love to the mix only make it more even more complicated and worse.



Yep, sensory overload; it's already annoying enough in crowded areas, but depending of your computer someone can hear your fan even if you don't notice it (this being said when you know you have this you usually bring earplugs with you too, I also do it, not even for other people, even for you because there are tons of annoying noses you will not be able to stop, which is strange... But whatever.).
Yeah, the cell phone part look strange ASD-wise, so I'd assume this too, but the example is good and it probably happened with someone having this as a real problem somewhere; in fact it's pretty common from what I did read about autism.
Well; people living with autism experience the negative every day, so of course we'll notice it more; most people (myself included) will consider it the worst thing in the world if their computer break without thinking that they are lucky to have it in the first place; it's a natural reaction and one you'll find everywhere, in every single subject. The real problem is that isaying is otherwise is something akin to talking to someone and ONLY telling him its flaws. Not the best thing to do with a child, or with anyone, honestly. Medical terms imply that it isn't due to the person's mistake and that he isn't "bad" because of it; if someone has a weak heart, I'm pretty sure almost nobody would tell him that he's a wimp because he cannot run a maraton. Understanding the reason change how you tackle the problem.




In fact, that's one of the best way to raise a kid according to something I did read somewhere; that you have to explain it to him in a way that make sense for him to accept him even if it's not perfectly accurate; children are usually really curious; which makes sense, we are hard-coded to that, even our memories work like that (hence the false memories syndrome, "filling the blank" for the whole thing to stay logical and consistent according to your current knowledge even if it's with false things). But with a reason and not just "eat your vegetables because you have to, otherwise no dessert". Whilke it may not work every time I guess, it illustrates well the pattern about the need to understand before taking a proper judgement.
Well, i'd say that being able to think that a rule is dumb still IS a good thing, since it means that you are not following them brainlessly; This quote is about religion, but can easily be applied in this context; "if you need religion to have moral and be a good person then you're not a good person. A good person would still be good even without religion".
Meaning of the quote aside; to each his/her own, you can substitute this with rules here and it works; being able to question rules is good. It's what give a meaning to the idea of applying it. Applying it in order to apply it is without thinking about it goes against the very idea of he thing; even if everyone suddenly respected the "no racism" rule, it would be at best artificial and at worst quite awkward at times since in wouldn't come with the understanding of the other person which is supposed to LEAD into this. So being able the question it is health, at least.
And yeah, assuming said rules are logical and have a reason to exist, indeed. The general idea usually is that it's too complicated for the kids to understand; or sometimes the person giving you rules don't even know why himself because he lived it the same way you did. Following rules when you need to is good, butthe real point is when you're mature enough to be able to follow them without "following them"; that's growing up and independence without doing nonsense with it just because you can or following them blindly. It's the idea of the forbidden fruit, too; if something is bad bad you don't know why, it'll be more tempting that if you know everything about the "why".



My parents were huge on the "because I said so" haha. Well, most of the time people think children are a lot more stupid than they actually are. This, and for some things probably not knowing the reason itself; some "society rules" that most people follow without thinking about it HAVE a reason to exist, but you need to think about it to get it or it might be part of a large-scale problem. Plus it's easier to do it just because, and not everyone like having to think about every single action they do. you can also feel a bit ashamed if your kid ask you something you want him to do and you don't know the answer yourself and wonder if you're being a bad parent.




Yeah, that's a part of the "not liking to follow orders" things. A lot of aspies, and humans in general, don't like to be in a passive state where you just follow directions and don't give them the choice (again, related to the whole forbidden fruit thing). Ironically enough, it often work pretty well if the person think, or if you make him/her think, that it's HIS/HER choice to do it even if in the end it isn't. Ego is a pretty huge problem, since you can KNOW that something is right and what you should do but still avoid to do it because of your pride. It might very well be one of the biggest problems in this world when it comes to understanding each other.
Yeh, people usually put this kind of things as a consequence of the aspie lack of a ToM, but honestly, I've seen just as many aspies as NTs doing it. The main difference is that the aspie just stick to his/her own perspective period, while the NT tries to do it by putting himself in the other person's shoes; which also doesn't always work since you don't have the same past; an exemple I often give is the idea of "feeling bad" because of empathy/ToM for a girl because her father passed away; while the girl herself could be relieved because her father kept beating her, or anything worse. Something you cannot know by "putting yourself in someone else's shoes" if you don't have the data at your disposal beforehand; you're just directly projecting your own experiences, nothing magical or really great here. So yeah, aspies and NTs are kind of the same about this aspies are just way more straightforward. But since they're more straightforward they tend to be a lot more criticized for it which can helps to put yourself in question. But htat requires maturity, which usually doesn't appear magically out of nowhere, guh. If anything I'd say that an immature aspie is possibly worse than an immature NT, but these problems can be solved when growing up.












.......And? What's the big deal? Or where is there a flaw in anything, to be honest, since it doesn't even address the problem.
As I said, the problem isn't about this at all. It's about it being a lucky guess more than anything else. Sure, it might be right in this case. Thing is, YES, some things are "that simple". However, as long as you don't know what count as "that simple", it's a big guess that does have as much chance to do damage than it does have chances to help, and humans are not some kind of mediums able to know via magic how things work. It all depends of understanding, > having data in order to get what is going on. Otherwise it's just trust, and trust isn't "good" or "bad" by itself; trust depends of the person you're trusting and that's it.

Nope, it isn't "good". In your case it might be. Now, think about how many times the same thing can create problems for others or regarding other situations? Trust is fine and all, but not everything always work perfectly and you cannot know if YOU would be wrong in your assumption/image of the other person before asking. Again the problem isn't a "good/bad" problem here and now. The problem is that BEFORE understanding the problem; which means knowing what and why you're doing it; you have no way to know if you're doing the right thing or not. which may not only hurt you, but hurt the other person as well, all of this because your idea is worth more than the actual thing that is happening into the other person's head. Try to take this into a complex situation, once again like someone being angry with you and you don't get why; you didn't do anything in your opinion; just because you don't know why so for you it's nonsense, is it better to take is as nonsense rather than trying to get WHAT you did to make the person angry even if it was normal for you? As long as you don't know the reasons, you have no way to know if you are really at fault or if the other one got something you said wrong, for example.
Accepting without understanding is nice if you know that it will end nicely and not create any problem. But in the same way, it can also lead to you making things even worse; something that wouldn't have happened if you just asked the other person and if everyone saw the other as themselves rather than the idea of what [x] would like [y] to be. In some circumstances, it works. In other, it doesn't. Since understanding other people, especially the ones you're close to, is hardly a bad thing except if you want to keep some dreams about them being perfect, and is usually quite important in any kind of relationship to be honest, trying to reduce the bad is hardly a bad thing.

Now ask to the millions of people who have been betrayed or worse because of said lack of effort at understanding from the other person, because they assumed, just like your wife who was lucky, that it was okay to agree with everything even if you don't know anything about it? Meanwhile even if your wife knew what was going on, her answer certainly wouldn't have changed anything. It's basically a big guess, therefore there isn't "good" or "bad". Trust is fine and all, but if it comes to a life or death situation, something that could cost a long-time relationship, or cost a lot, I'd rather not play russian roulette and know what I'm betting on. Especially in social situations; where it's quite easy for everyone to judge someone on pure assumptions only for them to be proved wrong. And especially because it wouldn't mean that you don't TRUST the others or anything; but as far as I know we are all different, so of course there can be differences and mistakes and there is nothing wrong with recognizing and being conscious of this before screwing up someone else's ife because of our overconfidence; we're lucky we are not all clones of each others; that's the whole point of everything.

Some of my friends have occasionally said I seem entirely NT, more so than I did before at least; that said it's only the result of my entire lifetime spent catering to the whims of my NT (or so they like to think but they're not on this spectrum) parents. I suppose I could say I fit Kyle's definition but I've always felt autistic even if my diagnosis should've been broad autism phenotype... I've learned by 100% negative reinforcement to act NT but it's not how I speak. Drawing a finer & finer distinction between comportment & verbal agility has helped me more than I even knew it would last year.

Ok, elkeryos.... you've written a lot since my last post and I'm afraid I can't respond to all of it. I understand (because I read as much as I could) that English is probably not your first language and it may be hard to convey some of what you're trying to. I'm doing my best to follow along.

As I understand it, your claim is that Aspies are more inclined to use formal logic than "NTs" are. I don't find this to be the case. Logic of the sort you say you're talking about is every bit as difficult to grasp for a person on the spectrum. It does not come naturally, which is why it took people a couple hundred thousand years to even come up with the concept. Most or perhaps even all of those people were probably "NT" by the way; no way to know that but it can be inferred from how prevalent autism is in humans.

I may also be cynical about other people with autism. I will admit to that.

Also, doesn't the idea (which you seem to agree with) that many aspies act in rigidly illogical ways weaken the claim that we're more given to logic?

The other thing you seem to be arguing that it is generally better to approach problems with logic than intuition. I disagree. In my opinion you're undervaluing intuitive problem-solving. There are a lot of situations where doing things based on feeling and "going with your gut" or doing something "just because" is actually the superior option. Other times, logic is indeed better. Knowing when to use one or the other is challenging; especially so for us, since intuitive problem-solving can be (somewhat amusingly) counter-intuitive to us.

Plus, I think a lot of us have a tendency to overthink things, which can be worse than not thinking at all. I know, I've really screwed myself over doing it.

I think you're selling "NTs" short, but I also think you're selling yourself short. You seem like a smart person who likes to think things out and has a unique view of the world. I think you would still be, autism or not. Don't doubt yourself.

I don't think the term "stim" was even around when I was a child unless it was a reference to stimulants like caffeine or similar drugs. I was paraphrasing & using language that people today would be more likely to understand. In reality, when I was a child I was told to stop, period. If I didn't/couldn't, I was spanked with a leather belt or wooden hairbrush. Then I was given a chance to stand still to prove I wasn't being intentionally disobedient. Which of course resulted in another spanking when I couldn't. This went on until I was shamed into a complete shutdown - problem solved, no more stimming!