Aspie and NT communication patterns

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yes, ... and typically this conviction is linked to the anthropocentric assumption that humans somehow represent the pinnacle of evolution.

Humans have a really had time grasping concepts such as distributed intelligence and non-hierarchical forms of organisation and communication, as for example used by plants and fungi. You might enjoy reading http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2013/ ... gent-plant. Here is a good introductory book on the topic http://www.islandpress.org/book/brilliant-green.

But we do like our interests. I much prefer knitting alone while watching TV, but it's ok too with others because then we can small talk. Like my new friend that I'm trying to get to know better - he loves fishing. I've always wanted to go fishing, but it's not in my hobbies. I would go fishing with him because I know he enjoys it, but with me my knitting is first. I would go fishing with him because he enjoys it AND because I would like to be in his company - small talking. I'd really like him, though, to also do something I'd like to do too - not knitting, of course, but maybe watch a movie with me that I like or go to some antique stores. It's give and take.

Hi DataB4



Yes, individual self-determination and self-determination of groups is a balancing act. Personally my rule of thumb is that avoidance of violence is the key to any kind of progress. No one should be deprived of basic human needs or subjected to physical, emotional, or economic violence based on their beliefs or [non-violent] behaviour.

From experience I would say that mainstream society has too little tolerance and appreciation for divergent thinking or a preoccupation with special interests. Mainstream society expects everyone to "function" within a very narrow bandwidth of "acceptable" behaviour. But over the longer term I am optimistic. People are capable of learning, as can be seen in the progress that has been made [over the course of several decades ...] in relation to other minorities, such as the LGBT communities [ ... and there is further progress to be made].

Non-hierarchical structures based on an advice process create a different kind of group dynamic. Mutual trust in each other is an important prerequisite. I can only speak with authority about the small geographically distributed team that I am part of. We started out by adding one person at a time. The first three people have known each other for many years, and have worked with each other in the past. Now every newcomer goes through a multi-year induction process. The level of mutual trust is validated and grows incrementally. All processes are transparent within the organisation, there is an expectation on everyone to share knowledge freely, and we rely on an advice process rather than bossing people around. Monetary compensation levels are determined democratically, within a narrow band, and there are no special rewards for individual performance – all incentives focus on team performance. The organisation has been designed to be uninteresting for anyone trying to climb a social "ladder". The services provided evolve with the special interests of those who are part of the team.

Conflict can be a positive force in a suitably supportive environment. In our team we have adopted two techniques that have worked well for other organisations:

Waigaya
An embodiment of Soichiro Honda’s cultural style — which is best exemplified by his insistence that Honda employees favor unorthodoxy over imitation — waigaya comes in many forms. At the heart of waigaya is a single concept: paradoxes and disagreements are the essence of continuous improvement. Most companies are afraid of such dualities, but opposing concepts routinely alter the business equation: centralisation versus decentralisation, worker empowerment versus productivity, multinational control versus indigenous autonomy, disruptive innovation versus cannibalisation of existing product lines, and on and on. There are four basic rules for waigaya:
- Everybody is equal in waigaya;
- All ideas must be disputed until they are either proven valid or rejected;
- When a person shares an idea, he or she doesn't own it anymore — it belongs to the group and the group can do with it what it will;
- At the end of waigaya, decisions and responsibilities are generated — a precise list of who is to do what, and by when.

Optimal Conflict
Is a state of mind that improves learning in the context of waigaya. Optimal conflict is defined as:
The persistent experience of some frustration, dilemma, life puzzle, quandary, or personal problem that is perfectly designed to cause us to feel the limits of our current ways of knowing in some sphere of our living that we care about, with sufficient supports so that we are neither overwhelmed by the conflict nor able to escape or diffuse it.
It generates new insights, tangible value, and great products when practiced in a supportive and trusting high performance team environment.

Yep....viewtopic.php?f=3&t=87241

It's mind boggling. I've heard conversations between other people that to me sounded like pure gibberish, but it seemed to mean something to them. I've also said things to people that were very meaningful to me and seemed like they just glossed over it and responded with something very superficial.

And yeah #1 is what throws me the most. I can't remember all those details people say about things that are going on in their life, or the story they told me about what happened years ago or whatever else it is they think is supposed to be a sign of how much I care. I literally can NOT do it even if I try. I can barely remember what I myself did yesterday. And sometimes sadly I just do not recognize people or remember their names.

I'm good with small talk when it is all about the here-and-now, or just prattling on about something that interests me, or else I can nod my head and murmur politely while someone else talks. But I can't pick the thread back up later if much time had passed the next time we talk, it's like starting all over again.

If I may jump in here- honestly, I feel like in comparison to doing something actually enjoyable (the interest) the idea of doing this unpalatable boring thing is ... just not worth it- a waste of time.
I remember I would indulge NTs in their boring "hanging out" & "not my special-interest" type conversations, and I found it quite a waste of time. It made me sad to continually do those other things- I also couldn't be bothered.
Also, hanging out with the other person was never worthwhile enough to me. I would do this often, and the NT gets lots out of it- but I just feel used and worse off in the meantime, and then what does the NT want next time? More of the same shit- it simply NEVER feels like the give and take that you mention, it's always switching to random stuff the NT likes and occassionally stuff I like- which the NT snottishly insists of using to show how tolerant and "a good person" they are that they are willing to suffer through the "weird stuff" that I talk about.
That's just my experience.
However, because of this I can simply NOT be bothered to do anything at. all. that isn't directly related to my interests because hey- one day I'll be dead and won't be able to learn about it anymore.

"Also, hanging out with the other person was never worthwhile enough to me. I would do this often, and the NT gets lots out of it- but I just feel used and worse off in the meantime, and then what does the NT want next time? More of the same shit- it simply NEVER feels like the give and take that you mention, it's always switching to random stuff the NT likes and occassionally stuff I like- which the NT snottishly insists of using to show how tolerant and "a good person" they are that they are willing to suffer through the "weird stuff" that I talk about."

Pardon me, I don't know how to say this so I'm just going to say it. The words you used here tell me that anything an NT does would not make you happy. It also sounds like if you were to do something that an NT wants to do, you are going to make sure that the NT knows you are not enjoying it - words used like "hanging out was never worthwhile enough to me", "I just feel used and worse off", "NT wants more of the same s**t", "the NT snottishly insists of using to show how tolerant and a good person they are". My advice - stay away from NT's for friends, because it sounds like you don't want them for friends in the first place.

What is that information from? It reminds me a LOT about something I read about japanese society a long while back- Soichiru sounds like a japanese name, but the word Waigaya isn't a japanese word... that I know of or can understand. Is that a korean thing?

Soichiru Honda was the founder of Honda. Waigaya is japanese, and at Honda is used to describe the essence of their approach to innovation, see http://www.strategy-business.com/articl ... ?gko=48bd9 and http://world.honda.com/design/process/.