Defeatism, or "Learned Helplessness".

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Fnord
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10 Dec 2019, 7:51 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:

Fnord, I think you really hit on something relatable with this thread.

Thanks! When I first read about Learned Helplessness, I had an epiphany almost as strong as the one I had when I first read about Asperger’s Syndrome. Nearly everything I read about either subject was experiential to me, and I could identify with almost every testimony given.

It’s just too bad that there are so many people IRL and here on WP who seem to display the defining behaviors, but I can’t do anything more to help them than “raise a flag” and alert everyone else to it.

skibum
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10 Dec 2019, 8:22 pm

It's a great flag

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firemonkey
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10 Dec 2019, 9:39 pm

If CBT was about giving people better coping mechanisms as opposed to having an irresponsible tendency to negate and trivialise people's experiences (The 'It wasn't as bad as you think it was. It's just your faulty thinking that makes you think it was' mentality) I'd have more time for it .

magz
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11 Dec 2019, 3:12 am

firemonkey wrote:

That's the problem with poorly applied CBT, especially to neurodiverse people - invalidation of unpleasant experiences instead of acknowledging them.

I'm still impressed by my current therapist who, after I told her how I fear people when I'm low on mental resources, asked me what exactly I fear.
I described her having a meltdown in public, seen from the inside.
She decided, my fear of people when I'm close to a meltdown is healthy and adaptive and it doesn't need any treatment, it needs to be followed - especially because I don't fear people when I'm feeling well.
That was so... different from what I heard from everyone else. And helpful.

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SharonB
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11 Dec 2019, 7:32 am

@magz, what does "it needs to be followed" mean? This is similar to my fear of "being squooshed". I'm this strong confident person and then when stressed I'm afraid I'm going to be squoosed, e.g. last night in the city (overstimulated) and afraid husband was going to yell at me (which he didn't and ironically might have in an unhealthy response to my increasing anxiety).

@firemonkey, yes the old "don't think that way, think this way" is hurtful. The newer "yes, that's understandable, you will have thoughts like that, and what subsequent thoughts would be helpful?" is where I can start to improve. The book the "Confidence Gap" has that premise (the thoughts will come, which ones are useful to grab hold of?). I try to assess which thoughts to take action on and which is let go.

magz
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11 Dec 2019, 7:42 am

SharonB wrote:

@magz, what does "it needs to be followed" mean?

I need to hide from people and avoid them when I feel like that.
It's a healthy fear that protects me from a real danger, not a phobia requiring treatment.

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ASPartOfMe
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11 Dec 2019, 10:03 am

firemonkey wrote:

At my support group an extern gave a six part lesson/therapy session on CBT. My impression was it was another way of saying “Don’t worry, be happy” with scientific language designed to appeal to aspies. That was five years ago or so. To my surprise it is more popular then ever. I really expected it to be a fad like EST in the 70s.

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firemonkey
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11 Dec 2019, 10:41 am

My experience with therapy was not a good one . There were 2 trained psychologists/ therapists who adopted the "If you want to be a good person " approach ,as though I was a criminal , rather than making any attempt to help me cope better with situations .

Then there was the untrained (in therapeutic approaches) day centre worker who was assigned to help me with anxiety etc .
She told me I lacked self esteem ; while doing her utmost to paint me in a negative light . After a while she announced she was a member of a small religious sect. I gave her a no holds barred set of notes which was meant to help her understand me better. It upset her religious sensibilities , so she threw a hissy fit and dumped me .

magz
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11 Dec 2019, 11:05 am

firemonkey wrote:

That's bad.
I wonder what the two psychologists wanted to achieve... when was it? My uncle had sort of similar experiences with school psychologists in late 1960s / early 1970s. Completely unhelpful.

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firemonkey
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11 Dec 2019, 11:08 am

First was 1999 I think. Second was 2002. The last 2009.

magz
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11 Dec 2019, 11:13 am

firemonkey wrote:

First was 1999 I think. Second was 2002. The last 2009.

They could have done better :/

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skibum
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11 Dec 2019, 11:34 am

I have only had one experience with an "Autism specialist" therapist. My trauma therapist asked if I would like to try this other guy. I said ok. He lasted about ten minutes with me and then we kicked him out of the session. It was so bad. My trauma therapist was amazed at how incredibly condescending this guy was to me. We never invited him back.

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SharonB
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11 Dec 2019, 12:20 pm

magz wrote:

SharonB wrote:

@magz, what does "it needs to be followed" mean?

I need to hide from people and avoid them when I feel like that.
It's a healthy fear that protects me from a real danger, not a phobia requiring treatment.

Got it. Thank you. Sounds similar to when I feel like somebody "doesn't like me" or I am unexplainably agitated, that is a big clue to get out or get help.

SharonB
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11 Dec 2019, 12:25 pm

Sorry for those folks who have bad experiences. I'm fortunate to live near a big city so there are lots of resources and options. My ASD support group recommended an ASD therapist. She groans at the ignorance in her field and is doing what she can to educate her peers and the community. It is a respectful and beneficial fit for me. (She may be Broad Autism Phenotype.)

skibum
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11 Dec 2019, 12:28 pm

SharonB wrote:

She needs to educate "Autism experts" in my area!

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magz
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11 Dec 2019, 12:32 pm

SharonB wrote:

Got it. Thank you. Sounds similar to when I feel like somebody "doesn't like me" or I am unexplainably agitated, that is a big clue to get out or get help.

The feeling is likely an important clue but the attempted rationalisation (somebody "not liking you") may not be accurate.
But an urge to get away from that person may be justified - they may be e.g. overstimulating or not respecting your boundaries.

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Defeatism, or "Learned Helplessness".