Albert Einstein is not your poster boy!
Also, nobody is saying that NTs cant be intelligent and good at maths and science. When I was at uni there were loads of NTs in the same science classes with me.
Aspies do tend to be in larger than usual numbers though in certain science subjects such as mathematics and others.
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Taking a break.
Idaho Aspie, I always wonder why everyone's so keen to make it fact, validate it to themselves, prove it to others, that Albert Einstein was autistic? There's not any practical value, because he's dead. It's just fighting over his corpse. How much is it worth to fight over someone dead and gone, over a point like this? It's just a futile gesture, a grasp at the genius he had to make a statement. I wonder just what statement it is that people are trying to make by "winning" his dead body's mental state. These people can't seem to disown autistics who do bad things(like raping children or killing people) fast enough, but are ever so eager to diagnose corpses who did important stuff.
Yeah, many have. Use them as examples, with their permission, not people who're dead. With the living ones, you have a real person, who's really alive. With Einstein, you've got a brain on display and a pile of dust. Not my first choice for an inspiration.
I am for good examples, real people, real success, real life, real diagnosis, and actually alive, preferably. Tug-of-war with a corpse? Not the best idea for anyone. What, isn't Daniel Tammet good enough? Temple Grandin? Sue Rubin? You've got plenty of people with autism, living right now, who are diagnosed, to worry about dust to dust diagnoses.
Inferior? I don't support that. Equal? Damn straight. Superior? Whoa, let's back up to equal, huh? If you're going for superior to make equal, you're either recognizing and then compensating for in-equality, or you really have superior in mind. And when it comes to the whole "autistics=geniuses," let's focus less on making yet more stereotypes, okay?
Albert Einstein is long dead. Ashes to ashes, dust to dust, use someone alive to show the positives. After all, you don't want the people who're examples of the positive side of the spectrum to be dead, do you? Kind of sends a bit of an odd message, don't you think?
People can admit that Einstein didn't have Autism, buit you're mistaken if you think they're just sayng that to be mean. After all, no one knows, since he's dead, and what's left is being... freely interpreted.
Glad to hear you're pro-equality, I really can't stand those superiority types.
Daniel, good point. I see the way that works, that's a pretty subtle transition there... I wonder if this would have a strong bearing on other discussions about AS, IQ, and the supposed upcoming changes to the DSM for the DSM-V.
Zen Mistress, I completely agree about your thoughts in the last sentence; we'll never know, though we can surely speculate.
As well, I do agree with your views on the ineffectuality of the stereotypes in making strong arguments about Einstein, due to the fact that stereotypes aren't accurate.
Reyairia, lots of people are introverts, but that doesn't mean they're autistic. I was terrible at school, but so were some of the normal kids. Didn't stop them from doing well later in life. Also, plenty of people have speech impediments, and I haven't seen anything about him having late speech. [joke]I'll make it fact later when I edit the wikipedia article.[/joke] Besides, Einstein created the Atomic Bomb. It was then used to kill how many people?
Vexcalibur, solid point. I completely agree. This begs the question though, then how do we resolve it so that we can stop talking about it?
Zen, good point on the sciences and maths. I agree with your assessments.
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It is true that it is only speculation. However the facts are than many characteristics of Einstein appear to be aspergian, and there is nothing wrong with us being proud of that.
I personally think he was very likely an aspie, but that is my opinion only.
Yes good and bad people can be aspies, and NTs. Hitler sadly seemed to be an aspie too (though he seemed to have additional psychopathic tendencies separate from the ASD), but there were also evil people who were NTs commiting genocide along with him.
And there are NTs who are geniuses in science. So genius/evil could be in anyone.
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KingdomOfRats
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I personally think he was very likely an aspie, but that is my opinion only.
Yes good and bad people can be aspies, and NTs. Hitler sadly seemed to be an aspie too (though he seemed to have additional psychopathic tendencies separate from the ASD), but there were also evil people who were NTs commiting genocide along with him.
And there are NTs who are geniuses in science. So genius/evil could be in anyone.
Einstein would not have been AS,if he is definitely Autistic,his speech delay was too significant.
And there was a lot of Autism in Einsteins family,Temple Grandin spoke to his relatives in Thinking In Pictures,doesn't mean Einstein was definitely autistic,but it makes it more likely when family are affected to.
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Its possible he could have been autistic instead of an aspie, true. Whatever the case, I dont think he appeared to display the type of NT traits that would make me suspect he was an NT.
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"Caravan is the name of my history, and my life an extraordinary adventure."
~ Amin Maalouf
Taking a break.
[snip]
Albert Einstein is long dead. Ashes to ashes, dust to dust, use someone alive to show the positives. After all, you don't want the people who're examples of the positive side of the spectrum to be dead, do you? Kind of sends a bit of an odd message, don't you think?
One of the best statements that sums it all up. I'd rather have a fictional poster boy than a dead one...
Outside of the autistic community, no one is going to know who Daniel Tammet, Temple Grandin, or Sue Rubin are. Everyone knows who einstein is, and that's why people are so eager to use his name. Same goes with Bill Gates.
I don't buy into the "superior" line of thinking, although I do believe in autistics being the next step in evolution, an adaptation to a society that requires more specialists than general workers. It isn't necessarily a broad-range improvement, but more a case of "filling the niches" of society.
Zen Mistress, good points. A little pride is fine, and even a good thing, but when it gets to a point of specifically seeking out the smartest people who may have had ASDs, when it can't truly be proven, that gets me a little annoyed, especially when they refuse to admit that it's just talk, and of no substance when it comes to inducting Einstein into the autistic community. Since, you know, being dead and all... Kind of throws a bit of a damper on things.
I'm glad that you're stating your opinion that he's autistic, and not just saying that he is. That difference means quite a bit to me, since I personally don't think it's an issue, whether or not he was autistic. Even so, if he was, he was likely a savant, and savants aren't exactly common. Again, I'm glad that you hold an opinion and allow others to hold opinions that he's not.
After all, Einstein's dead, and to me, it seems a little weird to pursue his genius even after his death. He made great contributions, and not so great contributions. The Theory of Relativity, and the advent of Nuclear Weapons. Now he's dead, and we're left in a world that has the firepower, should war break out, to wipe us all out several times over. Ironic, really.
I'm glad that you're so open. I haven't had a nice discussion like this in a while. Everyone's got the potential to be good or evil, and it doesn't matter who they are. They're still making their own choices. As well, Hitler modified soceity and the schools, to make what he did seem acceptable. He thrust into his people's hearts a fierce pride, devout national identity, and he brainwashed many through public propaganda, the radio, newspaper, and worst of all, through the schools. He made the people want to do it, and that is, in my opinion, one of the worst parts about it all.
I agree with your last point. NT, Autistic, their contributions are all important, no matter if they're NT or autistic. Either can be evil, either can be geniuses, and it's only the person who makes their choices in it.
KingdomOfRats, good points. I think that your ideas on this are sound, even though I personally don't think it matters if he was autistic or not.
ToadOfSteel, I'm sure that they'll find someone alive and real that would serve as a "face" for autism. Being alive, they would be able to talk, and go places, and actually represent autistics, rather than geniuses.
Well, these people ought to be known. They live with autism, are alive, and I think autistics who're autistic first and well-known later are better than trying to make the well-known people autistic. Like, for example, saying that Bill Gates is autistic. He's never come forward and said it, to my knowledge, and if he doesn't want to say that he's autistic, he's got the right to it. It's his life.
Mmkay. Sounds pretty feasible. After all, evolution is a constant process, and who're we to think that while everything else changes over time, that we don't? I still give a thumb up to equality, though.
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Joeker wrote:
Oppenheimer created the bomb, with a large crew to help. Einstein did theoretical work that started people thinking in that direction many years earlier. Saying that he created "the bomb" is kind of like saying Newton created ICBM's. He also argued strenuously against the weapon after World War 2. From a historical perspective, it can be legitimately argued that as horrible as destroying two cities was, it may have prevented millions more dead. The Japanese military was literally fighting to the death, refusing to surrender. At MOST the soldiers would suicide rather than surrender in many cases. Yes, we took prisoner's but not very many... The destruction of two cities and the implication that Tokyo was next (we were out of bombs, but they didn't know that...) contributed to the surrender. If the Allies had invaded the Home Islands it would have been a bloodbath. Millions would have died, and millions more from starvation in the aftermath.
I've read 3 or 4 biographies of Einstein over the years. I recall that he didn't speak (or spoke rarely) until after the age of 3 or 4. I would think that's delayed speech....
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There's a theory running around that introvertism (word I just made up now) is actually a ghost effect of autism, albeit a light one.
The possibility that Einstein coincidently went through all these impediments at the same time is probably less than if he was autistic.
Einstein never created the atomic bomb, and was not involved in the Manhattan project, that's a misconception. He only recommended it be started because he was afraid the Nazis would develop that technology.
Are you trying to scare me off from stating that Einstein and I may have had something in common by saying that he influenced the creation of the atomic bomb? Doing "good" or "bad" things does not influence how I believe they would be diagnosed in the modern world.
When is it appropriate to diagnose someone when so many of us are so close to being normal?
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War is war. I agree, the tactical use was quite devastating, but had it been used directly on a military target, like a fleet or an army, it would have had a stronger impact, and less death caused to civilians, innocents, children, babies... But it's been done, and talking about it won't change it. I must admit then, that
To be honest, it was Einstein who first proposed that his work could be turned to military purposes.
Reyairia, it very may well be that it is, but on a serious note, can't people be introverted and not be on the autistic spectrum? You don't have to be autistic to be introverted...
It can't be proven any more than it can be disproven that Einstein was or wasn't autistic, and therefore, it's a moot point either way. It's pointless, unless you just want to equate autism with Einstein to grossly misrepresent autistics as being wunderkids.
He developed the ground work, told the goverment it could be used for military purposes, and wanted it to be done. He created the science behind it, told the goverment to develop it. He's as complicit in it's creation as a mother would be to a child.
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Yes I understand that can be annoying. But can you blame aspies for wanting to have pride in ourselves for being how we are, when we are put down so much?
Perhaps savants are uncommon but autistic people and aspies can have excellent intellectual ability and unusual talents which they otherwise may not have.
Yes Hitler caused some terrible damage.; But the reports I read about Hitler indicated that he had psychopathic tendencies, not just spectrum ones. Psychopathy is a different kettle of fish to just having a lack of empathy as is found in ASD people. It effects a different part of the brain, studies show.
Also, he didnt "make" people want to commit a holocaust. He incited hatred that was already inside people in the first place.
You cant make someone want to do something they didnt already want.
He and his propaganda were said to be very hypnotic, but the fact remains that the people who perpetuated the atrocities along with him were ordinary people.
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"Caravan is the name of my history, and my life an extraordinary adventure."
~ Amin Maalouf
Taking a break.