Is anyone else sick of the anti-NT bias?

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sartresue
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12 Dec 2008, 11:15 am

aNTi bias topic

There are a few members here, like me, who have suffered at the hands of NT prejudice against their difference.

My three children are NT, and I am sure if they did not have an AS mother they would not be as understanding. They have all said nasty things about minoriites, and I know why they do it: to make themselves feel normal. It may be a reaction to the fact that their mother (me) is one of those minorites. They have told me that there is this fear they will become what they fear.

Some people are scared of being different because this makes them feel vulnerable. This is what my children have explained to me. They see strength in numbers. But I will have none of it.

I see them changing as they get older, to be more understanding of minorities and challenged people. But this is a long and difficult learing process, and many will never learn it. When I have been up against this, it is best to move on.

I am sick of bias that herds people, and does not see them as individuals. This is also a long and challenging learning process. 8)


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12 Dec 2008, 11:17 am

BlackjackGabbiani wrote:
Holy crud, five pages already? Let me see...


-Yes, I'm the Blackjack Gabbiani from the Pokémon fandom. Thanks for noticing! And for remembering my Domino icon (which makes me think you know me from LJ since it's my default there).

-Having things like plastic surgery isn't NT-exclusive.

-How do you know that all the bullies out there are NT?

-The repeated "they" and "them" refers to the initial subject of NTs. That's what the entire post is about, after all.

-There are a great deal of minority bigots who grow violent, and their being minorities doesn't excuse it one bit.

-I fail to see how pointing out that non-NTs can be evil because we're all individuals is "painting Aspies with a broad brush" (or whatever the phrase was, this is five pages in after all), given that the entire point was that we're as individual as anyone else. And since any group can have evil people in it...you see my point?

-Wait, "obsessive, narrow fixations" is meant to be NEGATIVE language? I've always seen it as neutral, with "narrow" being the most negative word in there, but since I've always it being used as in "a narrow hallway", it comes off being overall neutral. I know plenty of people (of varying states) who're said to be "obsessive" over things but it's never said with a negative tone. It all depends on context, and that example there looks pretty bog-standard neutral.

-There are no roving gangs of NTs looking for autistics to beat up. There're gangs of people who look for people who're *different* to beat up, but how do you know that the gangs are entirely NT or that the victims aren't? Most of those are racially based anyway, which has nothing to do with how the brain is wired. And yes, autistics can be as racist as any other group.

-"ad-hominem" is not limited to NT use. There's no such thing as NT-exclusive language or language functionality.

-And I know neurodiversity isn't limited to autistic people, but a lot of Aspie groups I've been in use "NT" ONLY to describe nonautistics. And my example with the porcelain cats was talking about someone who *is* "neurotypical" but still having a trait that people would consider crazy.

I'm going to have to agree with everything in this post.

And it is relevant to this forum, IMO.


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12 Dec 2008, 11:18 am

mitharatowen wrote:
ephemerella wrote:
I would get a second opinion on your Asperger diagnosis if I were you. You might be one of those "porcelain cats" people where you are neurotypical but just have a subset of high-functioning AS traits induced in you due to developmental and environmental factors. E.g. it's not very AS to try to focus how others on the board are talking and behaving as a matter of culture to the point of starting threads about culture and social behavior that affects you. The need to manage and critique how others express themselves in a community where communications disorders and social dysfunction is common, is not a typical AS thing or really relevant.

Then I guess you might need to reasses yours, ephemerella because that is exactly what you are doing to the OP. Good thing you're not a doctor in charge of diagnosing others. Or maybe you are? Seems like you sure do it a lot.


Maybe you are right. I will think about your comment. Thanks.



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12 Dec 2008, 11:20 am

mitharatowen wrote:
ephemerella wrote:
I would get a second opinion on your Asperger diagnosis if I were you. You might be one of those "porcelain cats" people where you are neurotypical but just have a subset of high-functioning AS traits induced in you due to developmental and environmental factors. E.g. it's not very AS to try to focus how others on the board are talking and behaving as a matter of culture to the point of starting threads about culture and social behavior that affects you. The need to manage and critique how others express themselves in a community where communications disorders and social dysfunction is common, is not a typical AS thing or really relevant.

Then I guess you might need to reasses yours, ephemerella because that is exactly what you are doing to the OP. Good thing you're not a doctor in charge of diagnosing others. Or maybe you are? Seems like you sure do it a lot.


I'm glad I'm not the only one irritated by ephemerella's post there. Who are you, ephemerella, to judge whether Blackjack has AS or not based simply on the topics she's interested in talking about? Clearly, your view of AS is incredibly narrow-minded and inaccurate.

As a matter of fact, I would actually say it's VERY AS to have an interest in cultural and social behaviours. Just because we have a hard time with some of these factors does not mean we are all completely disinterested in them! If anything, some of us are even more driven to understand and discuss these behaviours.


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12 Dec 2008, 11:28 am

Kirska wrote:
BlackjackGabbiani wrote:
Holy crud, five pages already? Let me see...


-Yes, I'm the Blackjack Gabbiani from the Pokémon fandom. Thanks for noticing! And for remembering my Domino icon (which makes me think you know me from LJ since it's my default there).

-Having things like plastic surgery isn't NT-exclusive.

-How do you know that all the bullies out there are NT?

-The repeated "they" and "them" refers to the initial subject of NTs. That's what the entire post is about, after all.

-There are a great deal of minority bigots who grow violent, and their being minorities doesn't excuse it one bit.

-I fail to see how pointing out that non-NTs can be evil because we're all individuals is "painting Aspies with a broad brush" (or whatever the phrase was, this is five pages in after all), given that the entire point was that we're as individual as anyone else. And since any group can have evil people in it...you see my point?

-Wait, "obsessive, narrow fixations" is meant to be NEGATIVE language? I've always seen it as neutral, with "narrow" being the most negative word in there, but since I've always it being used as in "a narrow hallway", it comes off being overall neutral. I know plenty of people (of varying states) who're said to be "obsessive" over things but it's never said with a negative tone. It all depends on context, and that example there looks pretty bog-standard neutral.

-There are no roving gangs of NTs looking for autistics to beat up. There're gangs of people who look for people who're *different* to beat up, but how do you know that the gangs are entirely NT or that the victims aren't? Most of those are racially based anyway, which has nothing to do with how the brain is wired. And yes, autistics can be as racist as any other group.

-"ad-hominem" is not limited to NT use. There's no such thing as NT-exclusive language or language functionality.

-And I know neurodiversity isn't limited to autistic people, but a lot of Aspie groups I've been in use "NT" ONLY to describe nonautistics. And my example with the porcelain cats was talking about someone who *is* "neurotypical" but still having a trait that people would consider crazy.

I'm going to have to agree with everything in this post.

And it is relevant to this forum, IMO.


These comments are very valid, from an NT perspective/world experience viewpoint. Not as meaningful based on a real AS world of experience.

These comments are as irrelevant or unmeaningful as if a few left-wing, urban atheist liberals went to rural Kansas and started preaching to hard-scrabble farmers there how misguided they are spending half their lives memorizing scripture and learning to hunt for fun. The stuff that you think are clever and meaningful comments aren't really relevant or that accurate, outside of your particular world of experience and definitions, just like the ideas and meanings of the liberal atheists wouldn't make sense to the rural farmers.

The above comments certainly aren't meaningful, universal or even intellectually well-though out enough for NTs to impose their social judgments about AS narratives and discussion styles on an AS forum.



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12 Dec 2008, 11:39 am

Tails wrote:
mitharatowen wrote:
ephemerella wrote:
I would get a second opinion on your Asperger diagnosis if I were you. You might be one of those "porcelain cats" people where you are neurotypical but just have a subset of high-functioning AS traits induced in you due to developmental and environmental factors. E.g. it's not very AS to try to focus how others on the board are talking and behaving as a matter of culture to the point of starting threads about culture and social behavior that affects you. The need to manage and critique how others express themselves in a community where communications disorders and social dysfunction is common, is not a typical AS thing or really relevant.

Then I guess you might need to reasses yours, ephemerella because that is exactly what you are doing to the OP. Good thing you're not a doctor in charge of diagnosing others. Or maybe you are? Seems like you sure do it a lot.


....Who are you, ephemerella, to judge whether Blackjack has AS or not based simply on the topics she's interested in talking about?


Because the OP posted the thread discussion, opened up that vein and invited comment.

Therefore, I am entitled to respond in kind, by criticizing the basis of her judgmental and NT-biased view and her imposing a negative judgmental criticism on others. The OP started the topic and invited comments and responding in kind is not inappropriate.

If the OP's thread criticizing whether AS people should criticize NTs judgmentally is appropriate, then so is a response judgmentally criticizing the OP's thread criticizing whether AS people should criticize NTs judgmentally.

You really don't get the double standards inherent in the OP's post and generally the NTs taking offense at AS criticism, do you?

Tails wrote:
Clearly, your view of AS is incredibly narrow-minded and inaccurate.....


It's not broad enough to encompass the fifty million NT poseurs who imagine they have AS and are trying to impose a happy-naive-Wunderkind stereotype on real AS people in order to play their faux-diagnosis game.



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12 Dec 2008, 11:42 am

ephemerella wrote:
It's not broad enough to encompass the fifty million NT poseurs who imagine they have AS and are trying to impose a happy-naive-Wunderkind stereotype on real AS people in order to play their faux-diagnosis game.


Where did you get the fifty million from, is there a statistic out there we could look at?



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12 Dec 2008, 11:43 am

It would be false to assume WP unofficially represents one position.

I know there is some bashing towards non-autistic people on here, as well as there is a very welcoming attitude towards parents, curious people and those who're here for all kinds of other reasons. There's neutrality too, confusion, people not being interested in this issue at all...

there'll be even more personal reasons and opinions.

If anything, WP is a representation of the amazing diversity of autism spectrum disorders, the people who have these and their opinions and perceptions of the world and everything in it.

I think that diversity, both the good and the bad that come with it, is a enrichment to out experience here.

No, I personally cannot understand those who discriminate against others. I don#t particularly care of it's autistics against autistics, autistic folks against those who're non-autistic or have no disorder at all, as well as those without any type of disorder or those without autism discriminate against autistic people or against each other.

I mean, it's ridiculous if you think about it.

Every group/members of groups seem(s) to discriminate against another for the sole purpose of hating those who're different.

What's the purpose?

That's as pointless as trying to find the 'true religion'. But yeah, I know... people still do that too huh



mitharatowen wrote:
Well the problem is that people often use the term "NT's" when the behavior in question is not exclusive to NT's. 'Some people' is therefore more correct.


I so totally agree.

Non-autistic don't magically have all these traits that have nothing to do with ASDs (e.g. are not impaired/different as in autistic people).

This continuous referring of bad and good traits as traits of non-autistic people changes the understanding of autism. And I think that it changes the description of autism for the worse.

Especially when people start to associate personality traits with ASDs.

It always does good to remember that jerks and sweet people can be autistic and non-autistic. Neither is exclusive to one of these groups.


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12 Dec 2008, 11:51 am

I have no problem with people in general. However, I do have a problem calling them "NT". It's like putting them in a little box where they all can't possibly fit. If people with aspergers are all different, people in general are all different too. Both sides have predjudices toward each other; that's a fact of observation. We need understanding from both sides, because understanding, like respect, comes from both sides and not just one.

Stereotyping is an aspect of human nature, not just an aspect of "NT"s. I don't think there is such a thing as a typical person. Experiences from all points of reference taught me that.



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12 Dec 2008, 11:56 am

ephemerella wrote:

Because the OP posted the thread discussion, opened up that vein and invited comment.

Therefore, I am entitled to respond in kind, by criticizing the basis of her judgmental and NT-biased view and her imposing a negative judgmental criticism on others. The OP started the topic and invited comments and responding in kind is not inappropriate.

If the OP's thread criticizing whether AS people should criticize NTs judgmentally is appropriate, then so is a response judgmentally criticizing the OP's thread criticizing whether AS people should criticize NTs judgmentally.

You really don't get the double standards inherent in the OP's post and generally the NTs taking offense at AS criticism, do you?


I never stated that I agreed with the OP's post or that I felt either way about it. I simply don't feel that you can question a person's diagnosis on any solid ground when all you have to go on is some posts that they have made. It's not your place to make such judgments, and you clearly do not have the expertise required nor the information required to even make such a call.

Tails wrote:
Clearly, your view of AS is incredibly narrow-minded and inaccurate.....


Quote:
It's not broad enough to encompass the fifty million NT poseurs who imagine they have AS and are trying to impose a happy-naive-Wunderkind stereotype on real AS people in order to play their faux-diagnosis game.


Oh dear, someone is pulling statistics out of thin air...

Certainly, there are people who would like to believe they have a disability to explain away all their problems and/or because the idea is appealing to them, trendy, whatever. But being jaded about that doesn't suddenly give you the magical ability to decide who is or isn't one of those people. You're in no position to make those judgments.


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12 Dec 2008, 12:01 pm

"We have met the enemy, and they is us." Pogo

Both Aspies and NT's are imaginary beings.

Us and Them are imaginary beings.

I prefer a Scientific term, hairless ground apes.

HGA's do form a spectrum, and 75% are sure they are in the top 25%.

If the behavior of HGA's offends you, you will be offended for life.

HGA's are an endless source of humor, and the most damage they do is to themselves.



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12 Dec 2008, 12:01 pm

Tails wrote:
ephemerella wrote:

Because the OP posted the thread discussion, opened up that vein and invited comment.

Therefore, I am entitled to respond in kind, by criticizing the basis of her judgmental and NT-biased view and her imposing a negative judgmental criticism on others. The OP started the topic and invited comments and responding in kind is not inappropriate.

If the OP's thread criticizing whether AS people should criticize NTs judgmentally is appropriate, then so is a response judgmentally criticizing the OP's thread criticizing whether AS people should criticize NTs judgmentally.

You really don't get the double standards inherent in the OP's post and generally the NTs taking offense at AS criticism, do you?


I never stated that I agreed with the OP's post or that I felt either way about it. I simply don't feel that you can question a person's diagnosis on any solid ground when all you have to go on is some posts that they have made. It's not your place to make such judgments, and you clearly do not have the expertise required nor the information required to even make such a call.

Tails wrote:
Clearly, your view of AS is incredibly narrow-minded and inaccurate.....


Quote:
It's not broad enough to encompass the fifty million NT poseurs who imagine they have AS and are trying to impose a happy-naive-Wunderkind stereotype on real AS people in order to play their faux-diagnosis game.


Oh dear, someone is pulling statistics out of thin air...

Certainly, there are people who would like to believe they have a disability to explain away all their problems and/or because the idea is appealing to them, trendy, whatever. But being jaded about that doesn't suddenly give you the magical ability to decide who is or isn't one of those people. You're in no position to make those judgments.


Well, you (and mitharatown) are right about the above criticism, about how I shouldn't question peoples' diagnoses. I was out of line for saying that, especially here. I'm not qualified to make those kinds of judgments and it's also not constructive and inconsistent with the purposes of the forum.



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12 Dec 2008, 12:06 pm

Hey! Some of my best friends are hairless ground apes.

(and I am NOT hairless . . . yet.)

8)



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12 Dec 2008, 12:09 pm

Kaleido wrote:
ephemerella wrote:
It's not broad enough to encompass the fifty million NT poseurs who imagine they have AS and are trying to impose a happy-naive-Wunderkind stereotype on real AS people in order to play their faux-diagnosis game.


Where did you get the fifty million from, is there a statistic out there we could look at?


The same place where the OP got the material for the judgmental rant that opened this post, accusing people of discrimination without any basis whatsoever.

Here is the OP's post:

OP wrote:
NTs aren't inherently bad, people! Just because they don't have any experience with something does NOT make them evil or ignorant, it just means they don't *KNOW*. Instead of lumping all of them into a single category just because of a few bad apples, try telling them the truth--the vast majority of them WILL LEARN. But no one's going to learn anything if we see them as the enemy.

And you know, Aspies can be just as oppressive as anyone. We're not inherently blameless because we're all individuals.

For that matter, "neurotypical" always struck me as a horrid phrase. Nobody is "typical" because such a thing doesn't exist in individuals. Even if someone isn't autistic, there's still a wide variety of other conditions...or maybe they collect porcelain cats. That's not typical and some people would see them as crazy for it.

My point is that if you're sick of how "normals" handle the world, do something about it--starting with stopping lumping all nonautistics together as some monolithic force.


Note the inflammatory memes in her diatribe about AS discriminating against NT: "bad", "evil", "ignorant", "lumping", "the enemy", "oppressive", "horrid", "sick of".

I have still not seen any support or examples for the sweeping, condescending and judgmental statements in her post accusing people of AS discrimination against NT. Here is my post from way back:

ephemerella wrote:
How about you give us a series of specific examples of what comprises "NT-bashing"? I mean, go cut and paste at least 12 full paragraphs from this site, and then explain why and how it is "bashing", instead of this broad, unspecific accusation? It is far more constructive to be specific when criticizing other people, because the truth of what you are trying to say will be supported and focused, if you give clear examples and explanations.


Some AS people may be literally-minded, analytical, concrete thinkers. But that doesn't mean we are social ret*ds. We can think through even complex social concepts like a diatribe accusing us of reverse-discrimination against NTs, if given concrete examples and supporting explanations. However, no one has given any.

How is the OP's statement anything other than a condescending NT-world-view dump on AS habit of nit-picking and processing and discussing NT behavior?



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12 Dec 2008, 12:11 pm

Right, that word. 'NT'.

I'm horribly literal in my use of language and immediate understanding. Though I am perfectly able to understand metaphorical language and double meanings with a little thinking.

And to me, NT is a abbreviation to neurotypical.

And neurotypical would imply that all those with a normal neurology are meant.

But often, NT is used to mean all those without autism.

It is problematic once a person starts to refer to those who 'get along fine with each other due to that they can read non-verbal cues' as NTs when they speak of people without autism.

Not all people without autism have the abilities that autistic people do not seem have (in that form). How good is a person with ADHD at reading non-verbal cues if they constantly miss them, how well does a person with ALS in expressing their state of mind by their facial expression, how does a person who's blind in a communication that is vastly based on visual processing?

I know that you can't always remember to think of those not present. But one should try to acknowledge as often as possible that there are more differences than just the obvious 2 - autism and those 'normal' people.

I mean, sure I am literal. But come on, to my mind it makes a sane and sensible trait to have.



Just caught this after previewing my post:

Inventor wrote:
"We have met the enemy, and they is us." Pogo

Both Aspies and NT's are imaginary beings.

Us and Them are imaginary beings.

I prefer a Scientific term, hairless ground apes.

HGA's do form a spectrum, and 75% are sure they are in the top 25%.

If the behavior of HGA's offends you, you will be offended for life.

HGA's are an endless source of humor, and the most damage they do is to themselves.


An excellent choice of quote and a brilliant wording. I'd say 'as always', but I didn't read/didn't stumble upon anything to read from you in a long time to be able to say that. That was a good refresher for my memory. Inventors tend to be most interesting with words!


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12 Dec 2008, 12:23 pm

Sora wrote:
Right, that word. 'NT'.

I'm horribly literal in my use of language and immediate understanding. Though I am perfectly able to understand metaphorical language and double meanings with a little thinking.

And to me, NT is a abbreviation to neurotypical.

And neurotypical would imply that all those with a normal neurology are meant.

But often, NT is used to mean all those without autism.

It is problematic once a person starts to refer to those who 'get along fine with each other due to that they can read non-verbal cues' as NTs when they speak of people without autism.

Not all people without autism have the abilities that autistic people do not seem have (in that form). How good is a person with ADHD at reading non-verbal cues if they constantly miss them, how well does a person with ALS in expressing their state of mind by their facial expression, how does a person who's blind in a communication that is vastly based on visual processing?

I know that you can't always remember to think of those not present. But one should try to acknowledge as often as possible that there are more differences than just the obvious 2 - autism and those 'normal' people.

I mean, sure I am literal. But come on, to my mind it makes a sane and sensible trait to have.



Just caught this after previewing my post:

Inventor wrote:
"We have met the enemy, and they is us." Pogo

Both Aspies and NT's are imaginary beings.

Us and Them are imaginary beings.

I prefer a Scientific term, hairless ground apes.

HGA's do form a spectrum, and 75% are sure they are in the top 25%.

If the behavior of HGA's offends you, you will be offended for life.

HGA's are an endless source of humor, and the most damage they do is to themselves.


An excellent choice of quote and a brilliant wording. I'd say 'as always', but I didn't read/didn't stumble upon anything to read from you in a long time to be able to say that. That was a good refresher for my memory. Inventors tend to be most interesting with words!


I think that the way the NT-like posters on this forum attack semantics of AS discussion are ignoring the fact that AS have communication disorder. If the NTs on the forum maybe adjust their sense of communication to the notion that AS people might have semantic-pragmatic disorder, and maybe not parse sometimes-oversimplified language for discriminatory intent, it might help them talk to their AS kids, wives, etc. better.

You're all climbing on some lofty pretense that you're arguing against discrimination, when in fact you are dumping on how the social ret*ds aren't talking about social behavior with sensitive-enough semantics due to their semantic-pragmatic disorder.

Don't be under the delusion that there is a bigotry or discrimination or bias issue here. What I see is condescending semantics-hacking of NTs and higher-functioning AS against the attempts of some AS to lamely discuss and analyze NT behavior.