NTs DO THINGS with conversation...

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use_your_words and pluto, you have explained it better than I was able to, thank you!

alba, thank you for your kind words and feedback.

vint, I didn't understand your earlier posts, that's why I didn't comment on them. Are you NT? I had never thought that "Subconscios part is the congnitive empathy (I believe this is how it`s called) thing, but social skills are learned. " I thought that both the empathy and what to do about it were unconscious in NTs...

Oh s*&t really?

How could I never notice that?

taboo wrote:

I don’t know to what extent this is an Aspie trait but I for one have no aesthetic color preference. Unless someone is wearing red and blue stripes or some bright fluorescent color that hurts your eyes to look at, it really doesn’t matter what color they wear. As for myself I like to wear black because it doesn’t stain easily and like walls to be white because they reflect more light making it easier to see. My favorite color is usually green because it reminds me of plants and I love nature but I find blue more relaxing because it is a lower wavelength. I would never comment on any ones color choice. Call me ignorant if you like but I just don’t see how a person with Asperger’s traits could possibly have an aesthetic color preference.

That was a good example following. While reading your script of the conversations, I really believed they preferred the grey hair! They seemed so sure and emphatic about it. How do people do that, knowing they are not expressing an honest opinion?


One person who knows about my AS still expects me to mindread. Eg, the other week:


Me: I'm considering obtaining another qualification but studying from home.

person: You always have to be learning something and gaining knowledge. It gives you a sense of meaning and happiness.

Me: That's true.

person: It seems to be what you spend all your time on. Do you see what I'm getting at?

Me: [Thinks a moment, unsure.] Yes, it does result in me focusing too much and forgetting other things.

person: [shifts uncomfortably and tries to be tactful] But you see what I'm getting at? You have to always be gaining knowledge.

Me: I know.

person: [Fails to be explicit, gives a slightly pitying look, and ends conversation.]

Me: [Thinks "Whatever, dude!" ]


I now recall this person also gave similar hints on my perfectionism when writing important letters. I only listened to their words and answered literally, but now think they were trying to "do" something with the conversation, rather than exchange information.

it is all a social wavelength that is mysterious to me. it is like an animalistic quest for dominance that many testosteronous males persue single mindedly in order to win the batty eyed females who witness the whole battle with the mindset of a fearful chimp who wants a strong successful weapon wielder to be her man.
but it is cloaked in knots of social subtlety that is beyond my minds ability to extricate into reason.
men are always showing off their very average attributes, and most women seem to prize them as gems.
they are always aimed at "pairing up" like all biological life's greatest urge is to pair up with another member of their species for sexual reasons.
most conversation is uttered with ulterior motives from NT people.

i do not consign all non autistic people to the compartment of NT.
but there is definitely a very basal instinct that normal young men have that is more compelling to them than what they wish to say with their minds.



i would never assume that. if someone says it is a good morning, i look out the window to see.

people often lie when they proclaim it is a "good morning"
i have had people tell me "good morning" on days where it is very bleak and cold and cyclonic. they have complained after they said "good morning" that their car broke down somewhere earlier.
yes "good morning".
it is a useless ritual that people do.

like shaking hands. i have offended so many people by just looking at their outstretched hand with no intention of gripping it.
i do not want to feel the skin of people i meet, so i avoid touching them.


yes it is also called "exclusion of external input" as my doctor said.
when you talk like a universal authority that can not be questioned, it is also difficult to hear the responses from your audience.



"invalidation" it is called (i was told)



that is so fake.
i pity anyone who falls for the artificial compliments of a desperate suitor.




no not at all. i will listen to a cockroach with enthusiasm if it can talk to me.
i do never allocate attention based upon sexual hopes.




so why use the movie as the anchor point?
why be p**** footing and using a movie as a divider board?

just lay back and say "come" and if she does then you have your raw beings with lights out to explore.

What an insightful post and discussion. As I leave my twenties behind, I seem to be more perceptive of the people around me and how they communication. Sadly I wish I knew all this when I was younger. I was naive to the ways of the world which led people to take advantage of me.

These neurotypicals really do speak a different language.

Actually, that's not necessarily true either. For an NT saying "good morning" doesn't have to mean anything. It's a socially EXPECTED norm, like saying "Please" and "thank you". When walking in to a room, it's polite to acknowledge other occupants by saying "hello", or as in this case, "good morning".

It also doesn't mean "It IS a good morning" so don't take it literally. And it doesn't even have to mean they are hoping you HAVE a good morning. It's just a polite acknowledgement. That's all.

(And by the way, if they walk in and DON'T say good morning, it's sort of rude, but don't take it as being personally directed at you. Sometimes people are having a bad day and just not in the mood to be polite and make "small talk".)

With respect to the comment from the lady in the restroom about the cute dress but how she would never wear that colour, if it was said in a friendly tone, I would tend to think that it means, that particular colour isn't complimentary to her complexion, so she wouldn't wear it, or that the colour is too bold for her, etc.

The only reason I would be insulted if someone said that to me, is if their tone was NOT friendly. If their tone was one of superiority, such as "Nice dress but *I* would never wear that colour", implying with the tone that their taste in colour is superior to mine, and therefore be insulting to me by implying I am inferior.


LL

The non verbal language IS very simplistic, very subconscious and instantaneous!

Whilst there are a very few NTs who are aware of it and can manipulate body language, it is not 'nauseatingly obvious' to to us, as we generally cannot define it or analyse it.

If and when the non verbal part of a conversation confuses us ( which happens ALL the time) we have a vague 'feeling of uneasiness' which subconciously tells us we didn't quite get the message.

What happens next is where I believe we differ from AS - the instantaneous aspect.

We just carry on our 'polite' conversation instinctively but SUBCONCOUSLY looking for further clues until we lose that sense of 'unease' - which occurs when we think we have understood the interchange of non verbal communication.

we would never stop for a 'time-out' to analyse the situation or what was said.....we just know we 'got it'

Aspies never get time to think about what has been said until they feel confident about it - they have to work it out whilst still listening to an equally confusing series of statements in the conversation

I'm inclined to think social skill are both subconscious and learned. Social choices are conscious, but I think not the skills behind them. Kinda like tying a shoe. It's not a conscious skill. It's not something you think about how to do. But you do decide to tie your shoe.

As far as literal meaning "Good morning" is short for "may you have a good morning". Nothing about the weather or whether the person saying it is having a good morning. Or even if the person it's said to is already having a good morning or not. Though it's main meaning is, it's a social nicety. A way of connecting.

Davros, thank you ever so much for your NT feedback ! !! ! I find it invaluable when an NT has the good will to do the work of making their unconscious processes conscious enough to teach us Aspies some (very needed and rare) insight. I stopped asking NTs decades ago, because they'd answer: "oh, I just know" and consider me weird/a nuisance for asking, on top of it.

b9 and everyone, I was listening to Louis Armstrong singing "What a wonderful world" today, very relevant to this thread when he sings: "I see friends shaking hands, saying how do you do, they're really saying "I love you".

Still puzzled here. Did you ever find out what it was that they were getting at..? How could wanting to gain knowledge be a bad thing?

I can understand demonstrating your interest in another person by showing an interest in their thoughts and ideas, but I still agree that doing that by pretending to like a movie/etc. just because they liked it seems ridiculous. The movie's got nothing to do with them personally. Why would you be somehow 'dismissing' them and their ideas just by saying that you didn't much care for that particular movie and so the two of you obviously just have different tastes in entertainment? Slamming their entire world philosophy might be one thing, but whyever should disagreeing with them about a movie be a personal affront?

What a very sad, false way to build relationships.

Very interesting topic Greentea and spot on observation there.


What I would say (from an NT point of view) is that I think the "manipulative" side to "NT conversation" that I've seen so many people on here sceptical and mistrusting of, is more common between people who aren't close socially (eg workmates or strangers in a shop, restaurant, street, etc), and much less common between people who are close friends or have good social connections with already.


I think it's important to distinguish between the type of "doing" within a conversation that may serve a subversive social purpose (eg to subversively express distaste, anger, establish an order of rank, or conversely to try and get into someone's good books) and the type of doing that is honest and genuine and can be seen amongst people who are truly comfortable in each others' company - this type of "doing" within conversation is more likely to include exchange of information without judgement (eg non-hostile debate), reassurance and honest opinion.


Compare the stranger in the dressing room who dismisses the other girl's opinion and choice of colour for no reason, with the 2 friends shopping together - one asking for the honest opinion of the other because she knows she can trust her to say whether it's not quite perfect, but still like her style and personal choices (which often reflect personality, at least for NTs).


In the former situation I would be annoyed ("how presumptious of a stranger to slag off my personal choice when she doesn't even know me and I didn't ask for her opinion)"; but in the second situation I would value my friend's opinion, take another look in the mirror and may even say "yeah, you're probably right, let's see if they have it in a different colour". It probably sounds ridiculous when the 2 people are saying the same thing, but if you consider that the stranger is saying it out of context, without knowing anything about my personality, whereas the friend is saying it while knowing a lot about me within a trusting and supportive friendship, I hope it makes the difference easier to see.


It can be to do with context in other situations too - if you came up to someone and the first thing you say to them is that you went to see a movie they really liked but you really hated, and you tell them exactly why it was so awful, they are going to feel like it is an attack (whether it was intended that way or not), because you are telling them how (in your opinion) that their opinion and personal taste in movies is wrong.


However if you are in a situation where you have time for a longer conversation, and you are perhaps closer with the person (or you happen to know they are a film buff or are cantankerous and like a good disagreement) you can say "ooh you know that film from the other day, I really hated it but I know you liked it, let's discuss it, I love a good film debate!" - or words to that effect. It's much less threatening to someone's opinion that way, as they know you would just like an intellectual debate and information exchange, rather than it coming across that you think that your opinion is better than theirs.


I do wonder if one of the reasons that aspies see NT conversation as manipulative and not to be trusted, is that they generally do not get close enough to form the types of relationships with NTs where it feels safe to express honest opinions. (This is an assumption based on what I've read on here, apologies if I'm off the mark). I just wanted to make the distinction between subversive "doing" conversation and positive, supportive "doing" conversation. I hope the above makes sense!

Seriously, I need to think about what you are saying and let it continue to sink in as the REALITY. I am here to learn, among other things, and this is my first message, actually.......what you revealed is a VERY CLEAR picture of the situation, because I have, for quite some time, now, come to think that conversation is about COMMUNICATING THROUGH THE USE OF WORDS the best I can, anyway......I can write my thoughts and ideas A LOT better than speak them.....I never even KNEW till recently (age 55) that neurotypicals make A LOT more eye contact than I do, as a type of SOCIAL NORM....how was I to know, I wasn't able to 'look' to find out, actually. I really didn't KNOW that others EXPECT me to make more eye contact, until recently. I was shocked to realize how out of touch with the eye contact social REALITY that I was.... I have found out that if you don't make the right amount and right quality of eye contact they think you are dishonest....and that is ironic, because honest communication, difficult as it may be, is the GOAL of social interaction as I FEEL IT now. When I was a child and then an adolescent....for the longest time I wondered WHY people *talk* about things at all......if they already know things what need is there to also talk about them out loud..........the idea in my mind being...... why bother to talk about *what you know* as small talk.....I didn't exactly 'understand' the point of conversation for a long time......

Anyway,....your message was very clear and enlightening. Thank-You.

Welcome aboard, Sola! And congrats on your first post!

bloop, thank you so much for your feedback! You say some things that I had always thought but no NT had ever confirmed to me before. This thread is becoming an invaluable non-judgemental, open dialogue between NTs and Aspies, I'm loving it!

In your words I hear so much of my history, so much of my parents' scoldings - seems like they were saying the things you say here, only in a demeaning, shaming, threatening, angry, concise and unclear way, so I never benefitted from it.

What strikes me as being the major difference between NTs and Aspies, from your post, is that NTs take into account the weaknesses of humans in general when relating (their insecurities, ego, capacity limit to absorb info, etc.). I realized this long ago about me, I overestimate the capacity of people to deal with reality, truth in any context. I used to see humans as totally different from what they really are like. Lack of Theory of Mind.

The question that comes to mind now is whether Aspies are more able than NTs to stomach truth and this is why we overestimate others' capacity, or whether we'd be as hurt by the color comment as the NT woman was, only we don't see that sensitivity in others.