First time in history!! !! The NT/AS open hotline ! !! !! !

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I think Jenny is saying about the same thing I mean to, but I think she does a better job of it. If I get the sense that someone is lying out of embarassment it's usually because they didn't do their job but are trying to show me respect by lying. If they are more defiant and telling a more transparent lie I'm more inclined to call them on it, but if it's a superior that isn't always a good idea. If it's one of my students I usually just give them a skeptical face and a "hmmm, sounds a little fishy" which I hope discourages them from slacking off on their work in the future, but isn't overly confrontational. I want to keep the relationship intact so that I can be an effective teacher to them. The relationship is more important than the job, usually. If the person is a real detriment to the team because they have a rotten attitude about work and/or people then I figure I'm not doing them any favors by not calling them on it.

It is complicated isn't it?

@ Kiley re: stims.

i have a lot of nervous habits and i'm not sure where the line is between normal fidgeting, a nervous habit and a stim, but i'll answer anyway.

the most common things i do are: twirl my hair, bite pens, wiggle my feet, tap and drum on things with my fingers, bite the insides of my cheeks, press my fingernails into my fingertips (or bite my fingers), squeeze and rub and bite my lips, rub my fingers and my hands, and once in awhile i catch myself biting the top of my hand. i do this stuff almost 24/7.

i don't know what purpose any of this serves, so lately i have tried to become cognizant of when i'm doing it. all i can tell you is when i manage to stop doing one thing, another one pops up in its place. it seems to ground me somehow.

i also make constant adjustments to alleviate sensory annoyances (hair touching my face, for example, itching, adjusting my clothes). this makes sense to me and is unavoidable, but i'm self-conscious about it and it adds to the inability to sit still.

as for your kids, if their stims somehow make them more comfortable, i doubt it's a good idea to discourage the behaviors. but if it's a matter of being teased, maybe they could determine which stims are more acceptable or attract less attention and try to limit to those.

i have also seen on video parents of young autistic children trying to force eye contact by literally grabbing the child's face and staring into it. i can't imagine this is a good idea either.

Kiley & jenny,

thank you for your replies. I may have made myself out to be more naive then I am, or at least I hope so.

I understand the motivations for lying which you mention and recognise them in others, although I no longer have any confidence in how often. I have lied to others to serve my own motives, however it just not like this. From you descriptions, I think I just severely underestimated how pervasive, obvious and playful this all is to people.

now that you mention it this was exactly what both #1 & #2 were doing.


in terms of how unconscious this is, are you aware when you are doing this? is it truly effortless?
are your goals when lying always this obvious to you, or do you just avoiding things you cannot say?
do you have problems keeping up to the pace of this type of a conversation, do you have to pause before a reaction?
how often do you pre-prepare a lies for such a situation? (even every day small stuff like why you left your desk)
If you know peoples motives and how they are trying to manipulate you, why does it work?
(if this multi-question format is too much, please advise)


It certainly is, I often don't know what someone is trying to get from me in a conversation, or what they are feeling, until well after the conversation is over.


Thank you for posting often, what you have brought up has been helpful, and how often and long I can post is based on a combined statistic of other users

usually all i get is this: either the person feels pretty good, or relative to how they usually present themselves; or something is a little off. either it might have something to do with me, or it likely doesn't. not much information to go on. i miss all the nuances. i need something written in neon to have any clue.

as for the little lies and games, i can't even follow any of this. i get if someone is fake or not; i might figure they're trying to impress someone by acting a certain way or being dishonest in general, but every time someone breaks it down into all the little component parts, i'm totally amazed that they're in there.

the only time i ever lie is out of utter embarrassment, and then it's probably really obvious. or if someone asks me a very direct question that there is obviously only one "correct" answer to ("my feet don't stink too much, do they?" "do i look fat in this outfit?"). and in both situations i have to weigh the possible consequences of telling the truth and it has to be well in the NOT WORTH THE RISK zone .. and i feel really icked out afterward.



well, thanks. what do you mean by this, though? (below)



ok .. here's something that has always bothered me. why do people who tease or imitate someone else in a potentially hurtful way (copying a repeated gesture, speaking in a monotone voice, etc) deny it or pretend they aren't doing it when you become aware of it? I'm not talking about eight year olds on a playground. i'm talking about adults.

if you're being a jerk, and trying to keep your - let's call it adult bullying, which is really what it is - behavior to yourself or as an in-joke with one of your friends, don't you know you're being a jerk?

i think this is similar to something that was asked earlier, about why people when caught lying aren't surprised or hurt, and Janissy said that being hurt implies the other person is in the wrong .. this makes my head spin. but i'll continue .. in this case it's not a "white lie" that's required to be polite; it's something done with ill intent.

so if you're caught, why in the world not apologize?

I look at things like the average time between other peoples posts, the length of the post, the number of posts attributed to a single user, how long it is before someone will reply. I use these to try and evaluate what the rules of the forum and thread are. I know this all must sound crazy and neurotic, however this is the only internet forum I have posted on more than once and the etiquette is not always clear.

I almost edited out this entire portion of my post because I thought you might misinterpret this, please don't. I am thanking you for posting so often, because this gives me the opportunity to do the same.

I really should have taken this all out.

Sometimes an apology is the appropriate response. If a student fails to do homework or something and tells an obvious lie I will usually tell them I know that what they are saying isn't true, but in a kind way. Sometimes they are pretty young and don't know how silly their lie is. I might acknowledge their embarassment and talk to them about whatever really prevented them to do their work. In this case I'm both teaching them not to get themselves in trouble with overly foolish lies, and how to get their homework done. I find that with Aspies I've got to actually explain that their lie was really foolish. They don't usually get it by just being caught. They may also need me to spell out that I'm not angry but am concerned about their education and want to help them to improve. I substitute teach and volunteer at school so some of the kids I know pretty well. My son is in a program for Aspies but in regular classes and I probably know the Aspies at his school better than the NTs. I teach at a few different schools and for all ages.

Huntedman,

maybe this will ease your mind:
http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt99776.html

This does actually ease my mind a little. Although the issue I was trying to get at is that this thread is like a conversation with a group of people. I need to watch others to try and tell who is running the conversation, how often and how long a person talks, what they talk about ect. Then I have to mimic whatever pattern the group has setup for themselves so I don't break the flow of the conversation.

Whether consciously or not, you somewhat changed the format of the conversation, and were successful because the others remained positive and engaged. In my own confusing way, I was trying to show support for the change in format, although in doing so I kind of broke the conversation. I was worried because I though that you might be offended and think I was pointing at the change in format in a negative light.

I am still amazed that NT people can turn this all to a setting labelled 'auto-manage'.

Hi, Huntedman. Well, my degree of awareness or effort in these sorts of interactions really depends on the importance of the situation and on my relationship with the other person/people. If the relationship is very superficial or we're just joking around, it requires almost no awareness or effort at all- it's pretty much an automatic social response and is a bit like verbal ping-pong.

If the relationship is less friendly or there is potential for causing trouble, I would pay more attention to the subtleties of what was being said and ensure that I myself was not being inappropriate. While speaking, I would be making ongoing judgments on how to respond, based not only on the words the other person was using, but also their tone of voice, facial expression, posture, etc.

I would only pre-prepare a lie if it was about a fairly significant matter and I knew that I would be questioned closely about it. Small social lies are easy to make up on the spot, probably because by my age I've had a lot of practice telling them.

The reason the whole system generally works, despite people usually knowing that lies are being told and games are being played, is that this sort of interaction is mostly not about exchanging factual information. A lot of it is about establishing, testing and maintaining social relationships and power hierarchies. Most NTs, in my experience at least, know roughly where they fit within the web of relationships that exists in a workplace (or any other social environment), and all interactions take place with an awareness of the various underlying tensions and loyalties between the people around you. Also, the more you get to know and trust someone, the more honest and direct you become with them- the "games" decrease as the relationship becomes closer, because you know that you can be blunt without causing offense. A lot of the lying and game-playing is designed to protect people from having to expose their true selves too much and risk being offended or shamed or CAUSING offense or shame. Again, this all sounds very elaborate and artificial when it's written out like this, but it's just the normal way most adults operate, I think.

I should also add that I would judge myself to be quite an honest and direct person in my dealings with others, and I definitely prefer to be that way, but the ability to deal with social manipulation is very important for me. I work closely with large numbers of people all day long, and I wouldn't be able to carry out my job effectively if I didn't have these skills.

I hope this helps. Jenny

Huntedman,

Sometimes I don't get the emotional content until later too. If there is a lot going on it may make me process things more slowly. Ten minutes after the conversation is over what I should have known will hit me, or maybe ten minutes after it's too late to repair whatever damage my missing the cue is doing. That's probably my ADHD. I'm very good at figuring those things out, but my brain works best in a calm environment. I'll know something is wrong, just not figure out the right response fast enough to execute it. I hate that.

I am always saying and doing the wrong thing and it used to make me feel like a freak, but since my Dx, I have realized that if I, completely unintentionally, hurt or offend someone, then later apologize and the offended person can't forgive me, then my action has only become an excuse for him/her to get me out of his/her life for whatever reason and so why on earth would I want to repair further? ...At that point, I just think that if that friend wants me back, he/she knows where I can be found.

I haven't read through the whole thread yet, but I'm an NT wanting to ask questions of Aspies.

I just found out my hubby is Aspie and I'm a fairly typical NT chick, a bit over emotional and very strong willed. The good part is that I am delving into learning about Aspies as much as I can, and I want to understand him and accomodate him and all this stuff.

Question for now:

As an NT, how am I expected to be able to handle the randomness of when issues come out? Hubby rarely says anything about what's going on in his head, but I can see that so much is going on. When I ask him, sometimes what I get is "absolutely nothing" and it would be like sucking blood out of a rock. But once in a while, he will write me a blog and that will contain a TON of stuff that he's been ruminating over. How should I handle the in between times, without making him feel pressured? Is there any way I can help him to open up and be more free with his feelings and expressions towards me?

One more question. I have never emotionally connected to him. It's always been more of a mutual physical connection (not sexual) where we enjoyed snuggling, and whatever, it's probably a mental connection too although I don't really feel connected. I think we both feel we are very independent individuals living in the same house who happen to have wedding rings on. And we're content with that right now. However, when I say to him that someday I'd like to emotionally connect with him, there is nothing I can do to help him understand what that means. He's always said "I don't know what you mean by that...I can't understand that." I accept that he can't, and I'm also accepting that I may never be emotionally connected to him. But is there any way I can convey what this means?

This was all quite helpful, thank you


I feel like I should mention that this is not necessarily a lie or deflection, yet is often actually true. Either nothing is going on, or nothing that can be translated into anything that will make sense.


internal issues are definitely easier to bring up as a response to what someone else has brought up. It can sort of focus your thoughts. If I could place rules on how I would like conversations of this nature should work, they would be these:

be blunt or very obvious in what your are describing, or it will not be understood
be ready for a blunt return
give the option to stop trying to explain something, if explaining it is not working
give time, or the option to pause the conversation and return when an appropriate answer is formulated

I would say the last one is the most important being rushed to describe something can lead to resentment, even if it is something you wanted to describe in the first place, or perhaps especially so.

caveats:

These conversations are exhausting, so try to use with moderation
people with AS don't necessarily filter things properly, so be careful what you wished for.
A good person can have bad thoughts, NT people just don't seem to have to deal with them as directly
Writing may just be a more comfortable way of expressing things
This is all the opinion of one person, so be careful, I can't necessarily speak for someone else just because they are on the spectrum


I have no way to comment on this, it's probably a good question for an NT here.

I'm not exactly an NT but I'm not an Aspie either. The same thing goes for my husband and youngest son. My two oldest sons are Aspies. I'll try to give you some suggestions as a fellow wife and someone who has Aspies in her family.

First, his diagnosis is new but his AS is not. This is the same man you chose to marry. The diagnosis gives you an opportunity to understand him better which could improve your relationship. If you married him thinking you could change some things about him (and I'm not saying this is the case, I'm just looking at the question from this angle) the diagnosis may help you understand that there are some things he can not change, not now, not ever. That kind of discovery can end a marriage or make it stronger, depending on what you each need from the relationship.

Emotional connections are very complex and vary from relationship to relationship. Asking someone to have an emotional connection with you is vague. Your husband may be thinking that you already share an emotional connection and is questioning why you think you don't. He may be wondering what he's done wrong. Aspies are all affected in their ability to express and interpret emotions to some degree but it varies from person to person. Some Aspies have difficulty interpreting their own emotions. You, as a couple, should probably consult a psychologist to find out how your husband's emotions work. You should also search your own heart to try to figure out specifically what you want from your husband emotionally. Just saying "an emotional connection" is far to vague a target. If you need to know what he's feeling, and need him to know what you are feeling, then the two of you can work on ways you can talk about that.

My two Aspies and I have profound emotional connections, but they are very different. My eldest son has a hard time reading the feelings of others. When I came to understand that I began telling him how I feel at times when I wanted him to know that. I know he can't read my body language or interpret my actions to get that information so I tell him. If he is confused by something I'm doing or saying he'll ask me if I'm angry with him or joking around, or whatever the situation requires. My middle son is pretty good at seeing how I feel but has a harder time knowing what to say about it. He has a hard time responding verbally in conversations and to situations. His verbal development was quite normal, even precotious, but when it comes to emotional conversation he acts like a deer caught in the headlights. He can talk all day about sharks or scientific matters that interest him, but if feelings are involved it's like talking to a rock. Even getting opinions about what food they want at a restaurant is like pulling teeth.

We are working on those skills in regards to the wider world as well. They both want friends and need to develop some of those skills to start and maintain satisfying relationships. Not everybody they meet is going to be as willing to go the extra mile with them, at least not until they get to know them better. There are clues they can look for and ways they can ask people about their feelings when they need to know. They also need to learn when to know they need to know. We aren't trying to get them to be just like NTs, but to develop enough social skills to allow them connect to people enough to have the kinds of relationships they want and need.

I like my kids the way they are. They are interesting and fun. Sure, there are times I get tired of hearing about their interests, but I think they are worth the boredom.

I can't speak with too much authority regarding your husband because we are all different. That said I'll often say "I don't know" or "nothing" in response to that kind of question asked out of the blue. With me I think this is an "executive function" issue. I simply have trouble instantly accessing my thoughts and converting them into words. Either that or I'll feel like I'm right in the middle of a long string of associated thought. In this case it will make no sense to the other person if I state what I'm thinking about at the exact moment without "going back" to the beginning. Of course sometimes I'll have forgotten where the beginning was.


It would probably help, as a preliminary step, if you attempted to explain to us what you mean by emotional connection. I feel it could mean different things to different people. My idea of emotional connection is having a shared experience with similar / shared emotions. I usually get this through discussion / participation in some topic / activity that's of mutual interest.

For NTs
This might have been asked before, but when you have a social encounter, is a long intelligent discussion enough to feel satisfied? Or is a long conversation with just words not enough?