First time in history!! !! The NT/AS open hotline ! !! !! !

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I don't find myself drawn to NTs, but on the occasions when I come to like one anyway, it's because the NT is kind and either pathetic enough not to care about my social skills or secure enough not to worry that I'll bring shame upon anyone who associates with me.

Besides that, just someone who shares some interests or is interesting. For some reason I have some sort of instinct to seek out friendships with pretty girls (I'm a straight woman), which generally ends badly.

i can understand this.. maybe it's a way of vicariously "being a 'proper' girl"
i'm both disgusted with and 100% baffled by gender roles & expectations, and judging by posts i've read, i don't think this is uncommon



if she ever reemerges, i would like to thank her for starting this topic.

Restickied.

Does anyone know Greentea's website address?

That doesn't seem to fit with my idea of how you are, but I hardly can know you since we just chat online. I wonder if it's like picking at a scab, you don't like it, but it's hard to stop. I don't dislike people because of how they look and I'd be very surprised if you did, but I think you mean more by "pretty girls." I think you mean the pretty popular kind. In China there was a class of girl like that, slim and willowy (an ideal by local aesthetics), always stylish, and they'd trample their own grandmother to be the first on the bus and get the best seat. I think there is a certain amount of narcissisism, not necessarily enough to diagnose the disorder, but those pretty, untouchable girls.

I've got a cousin who could be the male version of those girls, but isn't. He's incredibly good looking, very bright and accomplished. He is highly successful in his profession, and door just open for him because he's so competent, smart and good looking. He was raised by amazing parents who doted on him without spoiling them (I try to model my parenting after his mom). He's the most kind and humble guy and has never had an attitude about how he is, even though people just roll out the red carpet for him no matter what he does. He's a total mench.

I think there is some choice involved in being "those girls."

I sent her a pm. I do not have her web address anymore.

Good to have this back on Page One.

thank you

How does eye contact work with NTs? Do you constantly look into the other person's eyes when you're speaking to them?

I agree, its the one forum in which I feel most welcome.

Eye contact rules vary from culture to culture. In Asia, generally speaking, eye contact is seen as too direct and confrontational. One will look into one's friends and peers eyes, but look away from someone who is older or who has more authority like a teacher or leader of some kind. In Western cultures it's rude to look away from a person who is older or in authority. The more formal the conversation is the more constant the eye contact will be, except maybe if you are trying to express shame in which case you'd look down. So if your boss is giving you important instructions you'd hold steady eye contact looking away only to write instructions if that is appropriate. If you're in big trouble and your boss is really upset you would look at them sadly, but it would be acceptable to look at your feet in shame. The same posture in Asia would be more likely to convey deep respect.

During a more casual conversation I'll look around a little, but make eye contact from time to time to make sure they know I'm listening and to gather information about their mood.

I think a lot of people would be receptive to being more flexible about eye contact rules if they knew it was helpful to someone. Sometimes it might work to be transparent and explain that eye contact creeps you out, or whatever, and that you find it distracting and would get a lot more out of the conversation without it. At other times a less direct approach could work well. Telling a boss or teacher that it helps you to take notes while they are talking but that you are listening, could work.

I don't know if that's helpful, but I hope it is. Someone else might have another take on it. "The rules" do vary a bit from person to person, which does make it more confusing, but it also means that minor deviations from what one person thinks is the way it's done isn't going to be very noticable since there are multiple acceptable approaches.

I'm not NT, but in the eye contact department I can qualify.

As an NT, I would say that in general, it's probably better to err on the side of trying *something* to show that you care, rather than erring on the side of distance. NTs will forgive you more easily if they felt that you tried to sympathize/care for them in a time of need. If you err on the side of doing nothing, then you are basically sending them a clear message that you don't care.

As for the worrying about not knowing exactly what to do when they need reassurance - just build a small toolkit of general purpose things you do. They might not be the right tool in every case, but they will get you in the right ballpark.

Suggestions:

"I'm sorry you are hurting. I care about you."

"Is there anything I can do to help?"

"I don't like to see you in pain. Please let me know what I can do to help make you happier."

Thanks, Kiley! That sure is helpful.

About missing social cues and not knowing when to comfort someone...that's a tough one for anybody. Lots of NTs have a hard time with that, especially guys and if you freeze up in an emotional emergency you'll be in good company.

Someone listed a bunch of really useful stock phrases. I think that's a really good approach. What we've been trying to do with my son who has extremely poor social perception but pretty good facial recognition, so he knows who he's talking to but can't figure out how they feel, to use words.

He's asked me to use key words when I call him from another part of the house. If I call for him he can't tell if he's in trouble, I'm getting ready to dish out ice cream and want to know if he's got some, or if I've got an emergency I need help with. Since it's hard to yell out a whole lot of information what he likes is for me to use a nickname code. If it's something fun I call him "Name deleted-bear." He then knows that it's probably something good but if he does not want to be interrupted because his robot is almost programmed correctly and no ice cream in the world is worth the interruption, he can call back "Not now Mom, I'm almost done with something" and it's cool. If I say "Name-deleted get over here!" he knows that he needs to drop what he's doing right away and come because I either have a problem that requires immediate attention (like I'm stuck and need him to pull me out) or he's in trouble and better not poke the bear by keeping me waiting.

He also has techniques he uses toward me or other NT/or NT enough that this is relevant people. If he's not sure how the conversation is going he will ask for the emotional content stuff he knows he's missing. He will say "Are you mad at me?" "Did I do something wrong?" "Was that sarcasm?"

We've also worked on tell tale signals, with me sometimes exagerating body language to help him notice it, for practice. He's actually gotten really good at figuring things out like that and has mastered sarcasm himself. He's a real people person so it was important to him to develop these skills and we've worked together to figure it out, often with nothing more than mutual respect and some common sense. I think having struggled with ADHD for forty something years with no idea why certain things kept tripping me up no matter how hard I tried has given me some compassion for him.

It certainly doesn't need to be constant, or even directly in the eyes - looking at the person's nose or chin gives the illusion of looking them in the eye. Staring someone down can be intimidating, even for NTs. Looking directly in the eyes is an emotional interaction with someone, and in a romantic or violent setting, direct eye contact has established social meanings.

Like it or not, eye contact is a determining factor in how someone thinks of you - in that if you refuse to look them in the eye, they think you're unconfident and scared. My mom used to say this was the worst thing that a potential candidate could do when she interviewed people for her old job. To her, it meant they really didn't want the job and weren't concerned whether they got it or not - if they were concerned, they would make every effort to make a positive impression.

I find it a little bit offensive that you generalize so negatively about those who use drugs, and your assumptions about drugs in general - there are stimulants, depressants, entheogens, hallucinogens, sedatives, and herbal/natural substances that can all fall under the category of drugs, but they're all different and impossible to make a sweeping statement about - as are those who utilize them. Drug use can be terribly harmful, as the media tends to portray, but also incredibly illuminating and beneficial to everyday life.

There is absolutely no reason to 'snitch' on these students, if they're hurting you none. The US drug laws are extremely unfair and biased, and serve to do more harm to the people than the drugs themselves. While cannabis is a far different ballpark than heroin, you need to leave people free to make their own choices without your judgement or interference. The group of students sound like any average group of sarcastic teenagers, just looking to have fun, and using conversation as a means and tool to do so. It might be difficult to mesh with them if your senses of humor differ, but in my experience, stoners are a generally friendly and welcoming class of people.

As I said, I don't want to snitch. It's their business. But how can I know what kind of people the teachers are and what the social rules are if I don't know who knows what? That's why I want to find out what the teachers know without alerting them if they don't.

I'm very openminded. But I need to have all the information before I can make decisions based on how to act.