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Bluntness and honesty vs. politeness and white lies

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Sallamandrina
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18 Jun 2009, 8:28 pm

Arkadash wrote:
Sallamandrina wrote:
I agree with the initial statements of Arkadash and Janissy if they say that's the way the world works. If they are trying to defend this, I have no sympathy for their position.


That's the way the world works. I didn't make it up, I just live in it. I'm sorry the white lie business gets on autists' and aspies' nerves, and I'm very glad to be sensitized to that fact. A month ago, I knew nothing of these things, as indeed most NTs don't. This thread has been painful, but also, I hope, a learning experience.

Incidentally, the way the world works gets on my nerves too, just in other respects. Things are tough all over.

Sallamandrina wrote:
Arkadash obviously came here with some expectations. He was told his insight might benefit autistic people so he expected some recognition and appreciation. Instead, he was challenged and he doesn't seem used to it.


I'm not used to being challenged in situations where I am told my input will be welcome, especially not by the person who asks for that input in a friendly way.

Sallamandrina wrote:
More, one of the posters was very adamant in rubbing his nose in his own mess


True, and I think she got a distorted concept of my work as a whole because I described one particular difficult incident out of the thousands of mostly rather positive things that have happened in my interactions with my students.

Sallamandrina wrote:
- him saying that he would have preferred his students to get the wrong idea than to be publicly corrected by one of them.


I'm almost completely certain that I was the only one in the room that morning who didn't know the difference between a market segment and a market niche. As I wrote above, that's their field, they learn about it in their other classes. It wasn't their first semester in that university.

The ironic thing is, I'm nearly always happy to be corrected by my students. I would suggest that being corrected on that particular difficult morning was analogous to a situation described by another poster: telling a woman who's about to give a presentation that she looks terrible in her dress. It's true, but it makes her feel bad, and you get a lower quality presentation that way. If she's very skilled, sure, she can laugh about it, and that's the ideal way to respond. I would have liked to respond with a smile and a joke, too, but I wasn't strong enough at that moment. Are you strong all the time? Do you ever respond to things in ways you later wish you hadn't?

Sallamandrina wrote:
I imagine he was even more upset because he realised himself how unprofessional this was - but again, he didn't expect to be challenged so harshly - an NT wouldn't have done it.


NTs can challenge pretty harshly, and I've been challenged by some of the best, but you're right, I didn't come here for an argument, and it was an ugly shock to find myself caricatured as one of "them", the phonies, the ones who make trouble for autists.

Sallamandrina wrote:
And then Greantea reacted strongly to something she felt had happen to her all her life and I think he felt trapped - first he's told his insight is of great value, than he's being brought here just to be attacked from left and right.


Exactly.

Sallamandrina wrote:
Calling Greantea lazy and stupid was rude and childish. Intelligent people don't respond with insults


No comment.

Sallamandrina wrote:
just because their position is challenged, but are able to defend it with valid arguments, at least if they want any respect.


Everything I came up with, she dismissed.

Sallamandrina wrote:
The quote form Neruda was the real low blow - you get angry and say something like this and don't think about the damage you do - people like us live all their life with these scars, just because you feel angry and hurt and want to retaliate.


I felt duped. I felt she brought me to this thread under false pretenses, just because she wanted to publicly bash an NT.

Sallamandrina wrote:
Or maybe you just don't care and really want to inflict the maximum amount of pain. And you quote in the original language, assuming most people won't understand how low you just stooped.


If what I said stung, it's because there was truth in it. If there's no truth in it, it doesn't sting.

Sallamandrina wrote:
I haven't heard something so deliberately mean in a long time


And you've certainly never said anything so deliberately mean yourself.

Sallamandrina wrote:
and for that you certainly don't deserve Greatea's friendship or our respect.


I don't want Greentea's friendship; I haven't wanted it since she switched from the warm and friendly tone of the 18 email messages that we exchanged to the bitter and dismissive tone of her attacks on my comments here.

As for respect, whether you respect me or not is your business, not mine.



The fact that you felt trapped doesn't mean Greentea actually ambushed you - I don't think she needed to publicly bash and NT - that's still your anger speaking.

And no, something doesn't need to be true to "sting" - emotional abuse for instance is almost always based on the projections in the abuser's mind - it can hold no truth whatsoever and still be very damaging.


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Last edited by Sallamandrina on 19 Jun 2009, 12:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

Maggiedoll
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18 Jun 2009, 9:26 pm

Greentea wrote:
I explain this in my book. The difference between feedback and criticism lies in the INTENT. Most people ignore the intent and just focus on the delivery. Then they feel hurt, and they believe it's by the honesty. Not so. It's the hidden message that is hurtful, not the honesty part. Eg:

"You're fat" - "fat" is a derogatory concept. It's honesty, but it has additions that make the honesty the smallest, least important part of the message. What screams in this message is the INTENT, via the choice of VERY SUBJECTIVE concepts.

1. "You are" ---- "I am the judge of you"
2. "fat" ----- This is a subjective appreciation (a negative, critical, rejectful one). Why? Because fat and thin are relative concepts. How much weight is fat and how much weight is slim and how much weight is thin? "This is my subjective, personal opinion of your weight, and it's a negative one." is what the person is saying.

1+2: "My judgement of you is negative."

So are they being honest? NOOOO. They're judging you, making themselves your judge, and judging you negatively against their personal, subjective preferences.

The real message in "you're fat" is: "I don't like you".

"Tell me, have you put on some weight since I last saw you?"

1. YOU are the judge of you, not me.
2. Put on weight is an objective fact, not a personal appreciation (either positive or negative)

Is this honesty? YESSS. Because it makes you your own judge, and talks about objective reality, without coloring truth with personal, subjective judgement.

I feel the possibly stupid need to point out that that's a cultural standard that doesn't always apply. In many cultures, just mentioning that someone has gained weight, unless it's a solicited ("tell me honestly, do I look heavier?" or something to that effect) will always be an insult. In others "fat" is merely a descriptor term and isn't taken as seriously as it is in the US and some other countries. I think in some of Europe, it's used much more lightly, and isn't totally unacceptable to joke that someone is going to get fat from eating ice cream or something along those lines. Also, if someone was particularly skinny, and it wasn't due to an eating disorder, the term might not be totally inappropriate. (Say someone was unhappy with being underweight.. maybe for a health reason. Seeing them later after they've gained weight and saying "wow, look at you! you've gotten fat!" with a grin on your face might not be completely inappropriate. Depending on how well you know them, I guess. Probably still not something any of us here should risk, but just pointing out the possibility..)



Last edited by Maggiedoll on 19 Jun 2009, 7:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

Greentea
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18 Jun 2009, 9:58 pm

Maggie, I edited that post you quoted, can you delete your reply to it?


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18 Jun 2009, 10:10 pm

Maggiedoll wrote:
Greentea wrote:
I explain this in my book. The difference between feedback and criticism lies in the INTENT. Most people ignore the intent and just focus on the delivery. Then they feel hurt, and they believe it's by the honesty. Not so. It's the hidden message that is hurtful, not the honesty part. Eg:

"You're fat" - "fat" is a derogatory concept. It's honesty, but it has additions that make the honesty the smallest, least important part of the message. What screams in this message is the INTENT, via the choice of VERY SUBJECTIVE concepts.

1. "You are" ---- "I am the judge of you"
2. "fat" ----- This is a subjective appreciation (a negative, critical, rejectful one). Why? Because fat and thin are relative concepts. How much weight is fat and how much weight is slim and how much weight is thin? "This is my subjective, personal opinion of your weight, and it's a negative one." is what the person is saying.

1+2: "My judgement of you is negative."

So are they being honest? NOOOO. They're judging you, making themselves your judge, and judging you negatively against their personal, subjective preferences.

The real message in "you're fat" is: "I don't like you".

"Tell me, have you put on some weight since I last saw you?"

1. YOU are the judge of you, not me.
2. Put on weight is an objective fact, not a personal appreciation (either positive or negative)

Is this honesty? YESSS. Because it makes you your own judge, and talks about objective reality, without coloring truth with personal, subjective judgement.

I feel the possibly stupid need to point out that that's a cultural standard that doesn't always apply. In many cultures, just mentioning that someone has gained weight, unless it's a solicited ("tell me honestly, do I look heavier?" or something to that effect) will always be an insult. In others "fat" is merely a descriptor term and isn't taken as seriously as it is in the US and some other countries. I think in some of Europe, it's used much more lightly, and isn't totally unacceptable to joke that someone is going to get fat from eating ice cream or something along those lines. Also, if someone was particularly skinny, and it wasn't due to an eating disorder, the term might not be totally inappropriate. (Say someone was unhappy with being underweight.. maybe for a health reason. Seeing them later after they've gained weight and saying "wow, look at you! you've gotten fat!" with a grin on your face might not be completely inappropriate. Depending on how well you know them, I guess. Probably still not something any of us here should risk, but just pointing out the possibility..)

Greentea wrote:
In short, in order to be honest you have to first check yourself honestly: do you really intend to deliver the truth or do you intend to hurt? If you intend to hurt, it'll come out hurtful (with personal bias). If you intend to be honest, it'll come out objective and respectful and won't hurt the person.

Now I'd like to challenge whoever disagrees with this, to give me examples where objective, respectful truth is hurtful / does harm and a lie is preferable. When I challenge, it's FOR ME to check myself and learn if I'm wrong in my beliefs. Not to test others.

The only case where I, personally, believe a lie is better than telling the truth, is when someone old has a terminal illness and they don't need to make any arrangements. My mother died 3 months ago and I N.E.V.E.R. admitted to her that she was dying. I lied to her throughout, through my teeth, gave all possible excuses and lies I could think of. From my deep acquaintance with her and her life, I knew there was nothing for her to gain from knowing the truth. Nothing she could've done, she was paralyzed from head to toe. And except for me, no one to say good-bye to. When I threw the challenge out there, I was expecting someone to come up with this example.


Actually, this is one that I wonder about. Most people who are dying know it. Many are frustrated that nobody else will say it. If it's a POSSIBILITY maybe it's better not to discuss.. And I'm sure there are other situations where it's inappropriate to mention; yours was probably one of them. Someone who is dying and knows it, is trying to come to terms with it, needs to do so, etc.. Anyways, my point is that that's not always the case. And from the condition of some nursing homes I've seen recently, many people are likely to welcome death. I think a lot of people who are dying feel as though anyone who won't say it directly thinks they're stupid, demented, or both. Someone in that situation can usually tell the difference when there are the sorry smiles and fake "you'll be OKs".. Compassionate honesty is usually what they want, more than cold lies. Also, someone who isn't telling them the truth is probably just not going to seem very sincere. (obviously..) (Alzheimer's usually being an exception to this, of course.)

Just a point I felt a bit compelled to make..

It's getting late.. please excuse me if I don't make complete sense..


No, you do; in fact, my great grandfather was dying in an old folks' home during the turn of the '80s, and he kept asking what his condition was. My grandmother and Uncle and mom wouldn't tell him. He finally pulled my other Uncle aside and asked him, and my Uncle told him the truth; apparently, there was a look in his eyes knowing that his pain was finally coming to an end; my grandmother reprimanded him for it, but I believe he did the right thing.



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18 Jun 2009, 11:18 pm

Learning to lie was a matter or survival for me, as I was severely punished as child for speaking my mind. I got back to my old ways once I leaved my parent's house, although I've learned to be sincere in a less brutal manner. But in some situations, it just doesn't matter how polite and tactful you are - what's more important is the intentions and hidden meanings people attach to your words. Even if there are none. I am only too familiar with accusations of challenging and judging people or thinking I'm better than them because of my lack of strongly emotional responses. Somehow, being calm and rational in a disscution equates having no feelings.

Saying to someone "I don't feel like seeing anybody" will always read "I don't want to see you". Stating that you're aware of a power game going right under your nose or that you see through the social niceties of someone that just pulled the knife out of your back will just make everybody hate you. The list is endless.

I try to interact only with people that can handle my honesty. In other social situations I usually get quite vague and avoid straight answers with a joke and even that is often seen as "unwillingness to share". Sometimes I just chose to lie to defend myself. I don't call these "white lies" as I don't feel the need to soothe my conscience about it with a nice word or the reassurance that I'm contributing to society's peace and balance, because there is no such thing.

I didn't make the world or the social rules the way they are, but I do believe that allowed to shown themselves intierly as they are, most people will end up ripping each other's heads off. And I know I don't have to respect every unwritten rule in society, I just have to pay the price for not doing so, and sometimes I'm too damn tired to do it and I've met quite a few NTs that feel the same.


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18 Jun 2009, 11:48 pm

Sallamandrina wrote:
Learning to lie was a matter or survival for me, as I was severely punished as child for speaking my mind. I got back to my old ways once I leaved my parent's house, although I've learned to be sincere in a less brutal manner. But in some situations, it just doesn't matter how polite and tactful you are - what's more important is the intentions and hidden meanings people attach to your words. Even if there are none. I am only too familiar with accusations of challenging and judging people or thinking I'm better than them because of my lack of strongly emotional responses. Somehow, being calm and rational in a disscution equates having no feelings.

Saying to someone "I don't feel like seeing anybody" will always read "I don't want to see you". Stating that you're aware of a power game going right under your nose or that you see through the social niceties of someone that just pulled the knife out of your back will just make everybody hate you. The list is endless.

I try to interact only with people that can handle my honesty. In other social situations I usually get quite vague and avoid straight answers with a joke and even that is often seen as "unwillingness to share". Sometimes I just chose to lie to defend myself. I don't call these "white lies" as I don't feel the need to soothe my conscience about it with a nice word or the reassurance that I'm contributing to society's peace and balance, because there is no such thing.

I didn't make the world or the social rules the way they are, but I do believe that allowed to shown themselves intierly as they are, most people will end up ripping each other's heads off. And I know I don't have to respect every unwritten rule in society, I just have to pay the price for not doing so, and sometimes I'm too damn tired to do it and I've met quite a few NTs that feel the same.



Just to warn you: you'll be paying a far greater price to yourself down the line by respecting that rule. In fact, I've had a quote on Facebook regarding this; check it out:

“To be nobody but yourself in a world which is doing its best day and night to make you everybody else means to fight the hardest battle which any human being can fight and never stop fighting.”- E.E. Cummings



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19 Jun 2009, 12:03 am

TheDoctor82 wrote:
“To be nobody but yourself in a world which is doing its best day and night to make you everybody else means to fight the hardest battle which any human being can fight and never stop fighting.”- E.E. Cummings


Excellent quote and so very true. I only meant I have my moments of weakness when I take the easy way out in the hope that others will just mind their own beeswax for a change :lol:


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19 Jun 2009, 12:18 am

Sallamandrina wrote:
TheDoctor82 wrote:
“To be nobody but yourself in a world which is doing its best day and night to make you everybody else means to fight the hardest battle which any human being can fight and never stop fighting.”- E.E. Cummings


Excellent quote and so very true. I only meant I have my moments of weakness when I take the easy way out in the hope that others will just mind their own beeswax for a change :lol:


Yeah they won't; that's why Greentea came up with the very effective "King is nude" strategy :)



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19 Jun 2009, 3:14 am

Maggiedoll wrote:
Greentea wrote:
I explain this in my book. The difference between feedback and criticism lies in the INTENT. Most people ignore the intent and just focus on the delivery. Then they feel hurt, and they believe it's by the honesty. Not so. It's the hidden message that is hurtful, not the honesty part. Eg:

"You're fat" - "fat" is a derogatory concept. It's honesty, but it has additions that make the honesty the smallest, least important part of the message. What screams in this message is the INTENT, via the choice of VERY SUBJECTIVE concepts.

1. "You are" ---- "I am the judge of you"
2. "fat" ----- This is a subjective appreciation (a negative, critical, rejectful one). Why? Because fat and thin are relative concepts. How much weight is fat and how much weight is slim and how much weight is thin? "This is my subjective, personal opinion of your weight, and it's a negative one." is what the person is saying.

1+2: "My judgement of you is negative."

So are they being honest? NOOOO. They're judging you, making themselves your judge, and judging you negatively against their personal, subjective preferences.

The real message in "you're fat" is: "I don't like you".

"Tell me, have you put on some weight since I last saw you?"

1. YOU are the judge of you, not me.
2. Put on weight is an objective fact, not a personal appreciation (either positive or negative)

Is this honesty? YESSS. Because it makes you your own judge, and talks about objective reality, without coloring truth with personal, subjective judgement.


That is the most helpful explanation, I will think on this *nods* :D



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19 Jun 2009, 5:13 am

Maggiedoll wrote:
Greentea wrote:
I explain this in my book.


Are we guinea pigs for a book???

Are we being grilled and questioned for someone to make money out of us???

8O

Who is writing the book, is it Maggiedoll or Greentea, I am confused? :?



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19 Jun 2009, 7:32 am

Absolutely right, Kaleido's brilliant inputs and insights made me rich 14 years ago when I wrote my novel and AS forums didn't exist. My insights, which I give for free on WP all day every day, are nothing in comparison to hers. :wink: :lol:

Now seriously, please don't ignore again my request not to quote an edited post, or I might start thinking you're doing it on purpose, out of envy or something. I edited that post because it was terribly long, not because there's any book in hiding. Many people know me well on here, so you only make yourself look bad by trying to raise unfounded suspicions about me.


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19 Jun 2009, 8:01 am

Sallamandrina wrote:
Learning to lie was a matter or survival for me, as I was severely punished as child for speaking my mind. I got back to my old ways once I leaved my parent's house, although I've learned to be sincere in a less brutal manner. But in some situations, it just doesn't matter how polite and tactful you are - what's more important is the intentions and hidden meanings people attach to your words. Even if there are none. I am only too familiar with accusations of challenging and judging people or thinking I'm better than them because of my lack of strongly emotional responses. Somehow, being calm and rational in a disscution equates having no feelings.


I recently had a problem with someone on this topic, so I feel the need to point out that calm does not equal rational. Either that or that one can speak slowly in an even voice and not actually be calm. Different situation, but.. yea.

Sallamandrina wrote:
Saying to someone "I don't feel like seeing anybody" will always read "I don't want to see you". Stating that you're aware of a power game going right under your nose or that you see through the social niceties of someone that just pulled the knife out of your back will just make everybody hate you. The list is endless.


Well, not everybody.. And most of the people I actually like are the ones who think social niceties are bull. I'm currently surrounded by a lot of engineers. Engineer = Aspie - Dysfunction. They're just supposed to be that way.

Sallamandrina wrote:
I try to interact only with people that can handle my honesty. In other social situations I usually get quite vague and avoid straight answers with a joke and even that is often seen as "unwillingness to share". Sometimes I just chose to lie to defend myself. I don't call these "white lies" as I don't feel the need to soothe my conscience about it with a nice word or the reassurance that I'm contributing to society's peace and balance, because there is no such thing.

Thank you, that's an GREAT point!

Sallamandrina wrote:
I didn't make the world or the social rules the way they are, but I do believe that allowed to shown themselves intierly as they are, most people will end up ripping each other's heads off. And I know I don't have to respect every unwritten rule in society, I just have to pay the price for not doing so, and sometimes I'm too damn tired to do it and I've met quite a few NTs that feel the same.


And just TRY using the word "typical" to refer to those people. Now THERE'S an insult. Calling someone who can handle honesty "typical" is outright mean!



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19 Jun 2009, 8:42 am

I'm glad that my post helped you Greentea. I'd like to say more, but I need to make this quick, as I'm heading out of town in a few minutes. I doubt that I'll have any internet access for a few days, but I'll try to add more when I get home.



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19 Jun 2009, 9:52 am

pissgai wrote:
Sophist wrote:
TL; DR


Still the same as ever I see. [epithet removed by lau].


Wow, did I miss somebody totallying railing me by ignoring this thread for a few days? :lol: Damn, missed the fun. :P

"pissgai"... hmmm... sounds eerily similar to "PeaGuy"...


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19 Jun 2009, 11:20 am

Greentea wrote:
Absolutely right, Kaleido's brilliant inputs and insights made me rich 14 years ago when I wrote my novel and AS forums didn't exist. My insights, which I give for free on WP all day every day, are nothing in comparison to hers. :wink: :lol:

Now seriously, please don't ignore again my request not to quote an edited post, or I might start thinking you're doing it on purpose, out of envy or something. I edited that post because it was terribly long, not because there's any book in hiding. Many people know me well on here, so you only make yourself look bad by trying to raise unfounded suspicions about me.

You have misunderstood, there were two names there not just yours but seeing how you have behaved on here just lately, I will not be discussing anything further with you because it will only be misunderstood.

I wish you peace Greentea.



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19 Jun 2009, 12:13 pm

Greentea

I am now America's Gadfly just like Socrates was ancient Athens's Gadfly.

http://cubedemon.blogspot.com/