Why do NTs turn nasty ...

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You have to put your feet in the shoes of someone who has an ASD..metaphorically speaking. True, some are fortunate, are born into a supportive environment with a family who has a sense of responsibility, are good hearted, functional and want their kids to reach their potential and have enough supportive people around who want that also and encourage them to make the right decisions, stay positive, have faith in the brightness of the future...that sort of thing. The ones from families like that (advocate type families) are most likely the ones who are going to have an inclusive, positive attitude toward life and NTs in general. Just like NTs who are raised in functional families are going to be better adjusted and able to cope with the pressures life throws them.
Then you have others who are not so fortunate and are pretty much thrown into the lion's den, ridiculed and mocked constantly by members of their own family, their families don't like them because of their "differences" and feel threatened by them, they worry about losing status in the community because of the stigma, no access to good schools, life is a constant battle and being around others a humilitating experience that can enduce great distress.
Imagine having no one on your side.
From what I've witnessed, most NTs are clever and skilled enough to have one person who sticks with them, supports them, stands up for them even if they are the vilest person.
Imagine tho, if you do not have anyone because you don't possess the ability to get people to support you or stand up for you despite your flaws. Everyone has flaws.
That's the situation some with ASDs are in so they come to places like WP and vent their frustration at a society that sometimes, mocks them on a daily basis, excludes them , doesn't really care and always sides with the NTs.

I still think it's part of the learning process for Aspies to have those moments of ventilation. We can turn those vents into great discussions or we can turn them into great debates (like many of you have done in this thread). There's no question that all people and all NTs are NOT jerks or bullies or anything. It just seems that way sometimes when all hope is lost for that moment, and it's our job on this forum to see someone hurting like that and to try to reestablish that hope than to knock them down and judge them for what they are feeling for that time period.

One problem we have on here is the DEFINITION OF NT. It technically means neurotypical meaning what is typical to the species. It doesn't mean people who have AS and people who don't, although that definition seems to be used often here in the WP in context as well, and I've been guilty of using it as such myself. So if you don't have AS and are on this forum, it doesn't mean you are NT. NT is a way for us to define what is normal to society, not the way every individual behaves. For instance, NTs have a herding instinct that seems to be lacking amongst the AS, and it seems pretty stupid to us for people to have that, but that doesn't make people who do that stupid. In fact, I've been kinda consciously trying it out and starting to see how ingenius the concept really is, but from the outside, all you see is how damaging it is. But a person who doesn't fall on the spectrum isn't defined by that definition. I don't think every person who isn't autistic will follow the crowd. Anyway, when we say NT, we mean people who seem to match the profile given to what is typical to our species, and that doesn't mean all people who aren't on the autistic spectrum will fall into that category.

Autism isn't typical to the species, so we kinda don't really like anyone who thinks we should turn into something considered normal...finding a cure...preventing autistic pregnancies, etc. That's my take on what WP means by anti NT, not Anti people who aren't autistic, but anti making any person fit into a predefined this is how you should be person. In other words, the WP is PRO DIVERSITY, so I believe people who don't have autism coming on here adds to that diversity and is very welcome to be here. If anyone tells you otherwise, it's because they just couldn't come up with a better argument in your debate and, dare I say, turned nasty...lol.

My problem on all this is that I don't want anyone to come on here feeling insulted. I surely don't want anyone coming here without Autism catching the us vs them mentality. But autistic people learn differently than what is construed as normal. I am no psychologist, but I truly believe that being able to freely speak without being judged is part of our learning process. Again, I think the best thing this forum can do is create a smoking section so all you nonsmokers don't have to breathe the second hand smoke.

Obviously the OP wasn't looking for a fight with those fighting words, and I'm willing to bet the person didn't see this argument coming. I think they were looking more for a discussion about what makes good people become bad people. So they screwed up with some vocabulary choices, big deal. I still figured out what they meant. I corrected the poor choice of words, and I was ready to get into a discussion about how and why people turn nasty. Obviously, I got to witness it instead.

If you're referring to being terribly traumatized, please refer to my earlier post. Click here:

LINK: 10th post on the page



I didn't have anyone on my side growing up. So I don't have to "imagine". In fact, I was thrown into a mental institution when I was 17 because my parents gave up trying to understand why I had become an angry teenager... totally not explainable by all the abuse and trauma I went through ... and then they left the country and went to live half way round the world, which I took to mean, "You're the problem. We can't even be bothered to go to family counseling with you." On my 18th birthday, I signed myself out. And a few months later, my French boyfriend (who I only just married 3 yrs ago after 30 yrs of separation) asked me to marry him. I had not told him where I had been for that last year and because I was so ashamed of having been institutionalized, I declined. I went on to marry a staff member from the institution a year after that, just so I didn't have to depend on my parents one more second of my life. But, I never ever even considered that hating people was going to make my life better somehow and it is possible for people to just follow a website guideline that says, "Hate speech is not permitted on the main forums. If you feel that you must make any generalized hateful statements, take it to the Haven." That way, we all know where the hate is and we can either choose to avoid it, or for those brave souls who have the strength and wisdom to take the task on, go in there and try to make some headway with those who use hate to feel better about their issues. And I truly believe this is an AS/AS problem, that is, it's going to take experienced aspies, who've gained some insight from their own lives, to get through to some of the hate mongers about how to grow and move past hate. And, just like any other forum that is really trying to do good things, it is obvious to me that anyone who just goes along, ignoring people's attempts to appeal to them to try some other means to mitigate their anger and outrage, and keeps posting hate speech after months and months, even after they've been told they need to get a grip, needs to be tagged a troll and dealt with accordingly. Even in the Haven. Otherwise, you're still supporting hate and not healing here.



Well, bashing 99% of the world's population isn't going to help! What possible motivation could I muster to reach out and support someone who says, "Most NTs aren't worth knowing"? Or, "They (NTs) make me sick!"? Get real! That guy doesn't want my support! He wants me to feel bad and somehow he gets his jollies from knowing it will. Bigotry is bigotry, whether it comes from an NT or an aspie! And bigotry is MEANT to alienate. I'm not just pointing out an unfortunate slip of the tongue one might have if they were just venting! Real venting leaves room for someone like me to come on and say, "Yup, you were totally treated like crap and you have every right to be pissed off and hurt." Bigots are convinced that they have the answer and that that answer is that some segment of society is making life hard for their segment. If I was a traumatized angry aspie just here venting, I'd be offended at being lumped in with the openly bigoted aspies, for sure!



Including individual NTs. And no-one should have to take punishment for other people's 'flaws'. In either direction. I can't very well generalize and say that ALL fathers are monsters just because mine was, can I? And how many fathers are out there just doing their best who I'd be discounting and offending if I did? My personal experience with my father does not translate to ALL fathers are bad and need to hear just how awful they are. Who does that help anyway?



And the day EVERY SINGLE NT mocks them, then the hate mongers here will be correct in their estimation of the ENTIRE NT population. Until then, They are just plain in the wrong and no amount of empathy I might have for their terrible lives can ever ever make hate speech justifiable. Supporting it is asking NTs to become victims so that the aspie victims can feel better....????? How can anyone think that's a good solution?

I would disagree, DW - if anything, I would call this site relatively neutral (there are others I could recommend for a real dose of anti-NT sentiments), and anti-cure if any sort of generalization could be made. I am disappointed that there is so much distaste for trying to understand each other, and more interest in ostracizing each side further...

I am on the spectrum; I am no better than any other person, and I am certainly no worse. I am different, and how I face that is my choice - not one made by society. Whether I learn from the people around me, or close myself to the opportunity, the decision rests with me. And I believe that applies to everyone on here. When we choose to point fingers, we are doing a disservice to ourselves and to others. Being supported does not mean having free reign to make accusations and rage unrestrained; with freedom and rights come responsibilities... something I think has been forgotten in the past few generations.


M.

I don't mean this insulting. I don't think you are NT. Technically, your experiences do not seem typical to the human species. They are far to awful for that. In fact, they are more awful than what most people experience (Aspies and NTs). I can't imagine that you don't suffer from various ailments as a result such as PTSD, which would make you not an NT. NTs don't have a diagnosis technically when even misused. Anyway, I think you can safely remove yourself from anyone's version of NT. I doubt that would change your opinion at all, and I wouldn't expect it to, but I'm hoping it might make statements about NTs not seem so personal.

I don't think the OP meant people not on the spectrum. Like you are saying the OP stated, "People who are not Autistic are nasty, why?" whereas I take it to be, "Why is what people consider normal so nasty?" NT just has too many definitions here.

Sorry, Mak, that came from pm's I've gotten from parents who've felt attacked and who left here. Perhaps, "known as not friendly to parents" is more accurate. And, shoot, we're working on that, too.

I think that the whole NT/AS thing is at a delicate point in the evolution of understanding. Imagine the transitions of thought that had to be made between the white and the black communities, or any other group that was in throws of being recognized and accepted as it exists. I think the process is inherently messy.

Sometimes people do just need to yell at each other. Then its done, over with, both sides having a better sense of how they contributed to the damage. Getting to full acceptance is still messy, but progress has been made.

So, to me, I know this thread is nasty, but I also hope its been healing for some, and ultimately a step forward. Some AS have written amazing and insightful posts that hopefully other AS members will listen.

My husband is AS. It makes some things more complicated, and other things easier. I don't know all the factors causing stress for you, but don't allow yourself to give up just because some people here have developed hate. Their lives aren't your husband's. Not all AS develop that. Each is a product of their life experience, just as you and I are.

Well. I've just realized that I am making an assumption based on NT life experiences that isn't necessarilly applicable to AS. Living with a son and husband who absolutely cannot fight (far too upsetting and overwhelming), you would think, would have taught me that. But, no, to ME venting can be healthy and healing, so I apply that to this forum, and forget how I've learned NOT to do that any more in my own home.

So I'm going to turn that into a question. Are my husband and son representative of the whole, AS thinking, when it comes to that? Or do some AS find venting and arguing to be healing, like I do?

Ok, I'm one of those NTs who was bullied. I don't pretend to know what Aspies go through, but I suspect rejection illicits similar feelings regardless of how the feelings got generated. No, no one ever called me ret*d. When I was in Middle School in boys PE, in the shower after the workout the boys who were early bloomers, who had a six inch fire hose hanging between their legs liked to lord it over those with smaller genitalia. I was pointed at and laughed at, and teased for being a tall boy with a small p*n*s. Is that form of rejection personal enough to qualify? My voice didn't change until I was 18, and I didn't have enough peach fuzz to shave until I was 20. I got bullied all the way through high school, and laid in my bedroom and cried myself to sleep the night after my graduation because high school was finally over. I didn't get teased for autistic attributes so I can't know how you feel eh?

well, I guess there's a 'split' in the church of WP. These things take time to play out but I remain unconvinced by any arguments here. The only NT post I sorta liked was the one about how they can understand how black people didn't want white people around in the early days of black power and that they're prepared to put up with it. But I don't think anyone addressed my point about how the difference in ability to ask for, express or get help is the reason why you need separate groups, AS people are very poor at this and NTs mostly excel at it. So in this area it is not a level playing field.

A lot of pro NT posts are in the vein of 'well we all have problems don't we' and gah that is a way of people dismissing you.

Quid for quote topic

QFT=Short Form for Quoted For Truth

In essence you agree with everything as written and you are quoting it for effect.

Better than SNAFU and FUBAR.

Last edited by sartresue on 24 Jul 2009, 5:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Wow, I know how tough that was to share, Will. Thanks for adding your voice to this. And I hope nobody trivializes it as "normal NT" childhood experiences. Bullying is bullying. And it's not the exclusive domain of AS.

see what i mean?

No, it's a way to say we can bridge the gap between our two worlds through mutual understanding. If there's any dismissing going on, it's the dismissing of NTs feelings. No aspies have been harmed in the making of this thread. How many NTs have tho?

Honestly? I don't think any NT's have. Postperson has a point. This is a safe space for people on the spectrum and we NTs need to tread VERY lightly because we are at risk of tromping through here too heavily because we are just more comfortable with interaction in general, perhaps even online interaction

ridiculous post deleted.

Last edited by zen_mistress on 24 Jul 2009, 6:56 pm, edited 3 times in total.