Cultural Aspergers Hypothesis

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There are other differences as well. Just a matter of comparing the diagnostic guidelines.

"It would be almost impossible to determine if someone is incapable of feeling guilt or empathy unless they observed them outside of the workplace."

I can do it within a few minutes. People are my special interest. I'm going to start a poll on the type of nonverbal difficulties people have.

In general, humans are wired to sense the unusual in others, as an evolutionary survival mechanism. It has been reported that Two-thirds of the communication humans receive from others consists of non-verbal information; much of the unusual data comes from that source.

Humans aren't wired to determine inherent psychological diagnoses in several minutes, that require a life history to determine. Psychopathy is one of those inherent conditions described by psychologists that requires a life history, as to whether or not an individual killed small animals as a child, set fires, etc. The diagnosis of Autism spectrum disorders requires a life history as well.

While one might sense that an adult individual does not feel guilt or empathy in a several minute encounter, it is not objective evidence as to whether they felt it in their childhood, or if they are going to feel it at home, after the brief encounter.

Your several minute judgement could be correct, but there is no way one could objectively determine if it was an inherent condition, unless an extensive life history was pursued.

The poll sounds interesting.

You would need a life history to determine ASPD, but psychopathy - the condition of having a broken amygdala leaving a much reduced personality and lots of acting - is quite recognisable to someone good at reading people. Once you've met one psychopath, you've met most psychopaths. It's unlike autism in that regard. Joe Navarro, the ex-FBI author of books about reading people, says he can quickly spot a psychopath because he wants to take them home for dinner with his wife. He doesn't have autistic sensitivity to realtime emotional data so uses NT heuristics based on years of experience, but the result is the same. You can either take my word for it or continue to believe your theories.

It occurs me as odd because this mechanism seems mainly a subconscious process of deduction (based on that very non-verbal exchange of information) in the majority of people that they cannot reproduce at will but they can do this. It really is not a fairly accurate process because it goes a long way from "there's something about this person that's not as right because it isn't as expected but I don't know what exactly" to having discovered what is different about said person (and more importantly, why).

I've been claiming this for years and most people don't seem to want to believe it. It's good to know someone else says the same thing. I never before made the connection that this could serve as a survival mechanism but it would make a lot of sense.

Navarro is an expert on non-verbal communication. While autistic individuals have difficulty with non-verbal communication, they still rely on the abilities they do have in communicating and understanding non-verbal communication; Non-verbal communication is not an "NT" specific heuristic in communicating with or understanding others.

Autistic individuals depending on their abilities, can read non-verbal behavior in determining deviant behavior in others, but that ability may be significantly reduced.

The problem is, the psychological effect of a broken amygdala, that would make one immune to fear, is not necessarily an inherent condition or the only physiological defect related to the diagnostic condition of psychopathy. Psychopathy has been associated with problems with the frontal orbital lobes in decision making and the limbic system for emotional processing as well.

The psychological effect of a broken amygdala and fearlessness, whether it has a psychological or physiological basis, is not restricted to the disorder of psychopathy either, and perhaps a requirement for a hero as indicated in the link at the end of this post.

Reduced personality and lots of acting, are two behavioral traits, which while part of psychopathy are also related to many other disorders.

These are factors but are only a few of the pieces of the diagnostic pie.

The necessity for a case history, in properly diagnosing psychopathy is not my theory, Robert Hare created the diagnostic tool used by most clinicians, including behavioral experts that have served in the FBI, such as Joe Navarro.

In Navarro's book he presents an expanded 150 item checklist, above and beyond what Hare provides to clinicians, for individuals in the public to detect where someone falls on the "psychopath spectrum", that includes items related to their personal, financial, and criminal backgrounds.

Navarro hypes his book to indicate his method is a quick method to spot a psychopath, but it is complex and only leads to a spectrum like analysis of psychopathy. His book wasn't well received for this reason; some have reported they wanted their money back on sites where it is sold, because they felt like it would be an easy method to spot a psychopath.

This is the checklist, of 21 items provided by world's foremost expert on psychopathy, Hare:



As one can see, the inherent and developed personality factors are only half of the diagnostic pie.

Interestingly, new research suggests that psychopaths provide clues through their language, that are subconscious, that they cannot control, both verbally and in writing:

http://www.livescience.com/16585-psychopaths-speech-language.html

Autistic individuals may compensate for their difficulties with understanding non-verbal communication through pattern recognition in listening to verbal communication. If this is the case, they may pick up the pattern of the subtle clues of language that have recently been associated in studying psychopaths in the prison system.



Interestingly, this has spurred an initiative to detect psychopaths through text analysis. However, still, a lack of emotional content in speech and a lack of fear, which is harder to measure in text, does not necessarily destin one to psychopathic behavior outside of the social norm.

The lack of fear, through a structural difference in the amygdala alone, with empathy for others left intact, could make a difference in a hero or a sociopath. The heroes, as studied in society, may be inherently similiar to psychopaths:

Individuals with autism are known to have difficulty in processing and understanding emotion in language: verbal, non-verbal, and also in written communication.

The last post in the discussion of spotting a psychopath, illustrates several areas where individuals that do not have these communication difficulties, could mistake autuistic individuals as having psychopathic tendencies. The unfortunate reality is this is part of the natural biological rooted process that humans use as a survival mechanism in life, to steer clear of danger.

Only recently, has the proponent of TOM, Samuel Baron Cohen, acknowledged that some autistic individuals have strong levels of affective empathy.

The hero element, other than problems with fear, is similiar to behaviors in some autistic individuals in that they seek to follow what they determine is the ethically correct path, at times, without regard to the social consequences of that behavior.

In a several minute encounter one without inherent social communication difficulties might subconsciously and/or consciously determine that an autistic individual has psychopathic tendencies from the lack of emotional content in their non-verbal/verbal communication, however if they take time to get to know them well they may consciously determine from a more fullscale representation of their character that there is less to fear from them than most others.

I was aware of all that. You seem to be dismissing the possibility that autistics can be sensitive to nonverbals and 'vibes' based on your self and the DSM. But you're a NVLD autistic and the DSM was written by viewing its subjects as black boxes, with a preference for behaviours over internal states, so it can be useful diagnostically. So this is flawed reasoning.

++excellent post!
Thank you!
Do you have a link to that 150 item checklist from Navarro, by chance?

I find the parts about autistic individuals in groups interesting, especially the assumption that communication will not work well.

My experience does not match this. I've been to a number of "Asperger meetups" as well as more recently an AS support group. People seemed to get on everywhere between "okay" and "swimmingly". In the case of the support group, everyone had an official diagnosis (it was specifically set up for the recently diagnosed); in the case of the informal meetups, most people did, with a few still self-diagnosed individuals (myself included, at the time).

In the support group there were, as I recall, eight people. Of those, four successfully agreed on group activities outside the support group and implemented them. Similar results in the informal meetups.

Is my experience really that anomalous? I don't doubt that the people involved were towards the more high-functioning end of the spectrum, but it still seems very at odds with what's been stated in this thread.

Perhaps you misunderstood my post, as quoted here again, I stated quite the opposite, defending the fact that autistic individuals rely on their abilities to communicate and understand non-verbal communication however limited they may be.

This is how Hans Aspergers described Aspergers, in 1944:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Asperger



Note: Autistic psychopathy not equivalent to the modern day definition of psychopathy.

As linked below, this is how the DSMIV describes non-verbal difficulties in Aspergers. Interestingly Criteria A in the DSMIV is the only criteria that refers to impairments in the use of multiple non-verbal behaviors. Furthermore it is 1 of 4 criteria in a section where only 2 are required, so up to this point in time an individual could have been diagnosed with no difficulties in non-verbal communication.:

http://www.autreat.com/dsm4-aspergers.html

DSMIV:



However in the proposed Revision of the DSMV deficits in nonverbal communicative behaviors are a mandatory requirement for a diagnosis of Autism Spectrum disorder.

Technically an individual with no deficits in nonverbal communicative behaviors would not receive a diagnosis of autism spectrum disorder in the DSMV.

Even more interesting is that problems with verbal communication common to many individuals diagnosed with Autism Disorder, are not mentioned in the new criteria for autism spectrum disorder. However, obviously if one cannot speak they cannot integrate verbal and non-verbal communication.

http://www.dsm5.org/ProposedRevisions/Pages/proposedrevision.aspx?rid=94

DSMV:



I'm not suggesting you as an individual have any problems with non-verbal communication, or are incapable of reading vibes. At this point in time there is no requirement for that deficit for a diagnosis of Aspergers as evidenced above.

I presented the standard diagnostic criteria for psychopathy in my post you responded to, this is the reasoning of the psychopathy expert, Robert Hare, not mine.

While the initial vibes or interpretation of verbal/non-verbal communication with an individual, in the first few minutes of a conversation, may provide suspicion of psychopathy, it is impossible to verify an actual diagnosis without the criteria for psychopathy to be met, which includes a case history.

While Navarro may feel confident in his first impressions, as well, gained as a result of his life experiences, he would not attempt to actually diagnose an individual, in the professional environment, without a case history.

Non-verbal learning disorder is not a DSMIV diagnosis, it is an actual learning disorder that school psychologists diagnose children with that are having difficulties in the learning environment. Some children with this learning disorder have extreme difficulties in math, and require remedial education, in this specific academic area.

Fortunately, my personal deficits in verbal/non-verbal social communication, were not a significant issue for me in what I was tested for in the academic environment.

That's interesting, what type of groups activities were agreed upon?

It is possible that the social welfare system in Sweden, changes the equation.

A major issue in our group was a lack of resources to live. The ability to attain basic subsistence was the number one issue among the participants at the meetings, I attended.

Many of the adult individuals with Aspergers were accompanied by their parents, because they did not have the ability to drive, and/or the resources for their own transportation

One of the biggest problems in the US, appears to be little interest in even starting up a group along with scant awareness of Aspergers. I have heard this sentiment often on this website.

I live in a metropolitan area of several hundred thousand people, and a group was only recently established by an extremely highly functioning individual with Aspergers who has published books on the topic. It's not likely the group would have ever happened without this phenomenal individual to initiate it.

On the other hand there are several community programs in the metro community for those individuals more severely impacted by autism.

And, there is also an organization that raises several million dollars per year for that cause. Most of it is organized and run by concerned family members of these individuals more severely impacted by autism.

You're welcome. Navarro has kept a close reign on the copyright of his checklist. He offers it in a booklet called "How to Spot a Psychopath" that is available for purchase as an e-book online that costs about $6.

The review of the book, suggested that it was based largely on the criminal element of psychopathy behavior, which is not too surprising considering Navarro had a 25 year career in the FBI.

Thanks!

Mostly, further meetups away from the main group, going out for coffee or something to eat. Other types of activities were a little iffy, as some typical candidates for urban social activies like bowling tended to run afoul of someone's sensory issues, but we did manage to go bowling at times, too.

The main problem has been keeping the groups going if they aren't official (the support group I went to was on the taxpayer's dime and run by a couple of psychologists specialising in AS) or run by an aspie with motivation and some leadership skills. Having problems consistently keeping in touch seems to be a common difficulty I've seen both myself and other people on the spectrum exhibit.



Given what you say here, it's very likely the welfare system and other publically funded efforts make the difference. The Stockholm area where I live has a pretty comprehensive 50% subsidized public transport system which renders the driving issue moot in most cases, and the support groups are run by various local/regional government entities. Other areas vary but usually still have much better public transport than I've seen in any but the very largest US cities, even though Sweden is pretty sparse for a European country (the same size, and general shape, as California, but a population the size of Michigan's). If you have enough difficulties getting around you can sometimes get help with transportation, too.

All that said, a fair proportion of the people I saw were employed, often enough in the private sector. But yes, even those who weren't were able to lead reasonably independent lives. (One can argue about whether living on welfare is in fact "independent", but that's another discussion.)



Curious. There seems to be a lot of interest and many groups in various areas here that are run independently by individuals with AS. Doubtless the higher public awareness level has been helped by the public sector, though.

It is nice to hear that there are efforts in your area too, nonetheless.

This is just wrong. You're confusing diagnosis (of ASPD, not psychopathy) with recognition. Things are what they are, they don't need to be subject to a process that designates them as such.