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People with milder forms of autism struggle as adults

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Verdandi
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30 Mar 2012, 8:30 am

fraac wrote:
"If they are really so capable that they would never ever be diagnosed then they're not autistic in the first place."

This is begging the question. The proportion who are successful and aren't diagnosed is precisely the question.

I sympathise with the study but I can think of examples where future rates of 'success', which will become measurable, wouldn't reflect current or past rates (diagnosis leading to a dependent underclass, old style UK grammar schools being accidentally pro-AS).


No, it's not begging the question at all, that's going by the criteria as written. The part that says:

Quote:
(III) The disturbance causes clinically significant impairments in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.


If there's no impairment, there's no Asperger's, no autism, and no PDD-NOS.

... but whatever. I can only repeat myself so many times.



fraac
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30 Mar 2012, 8:34 am

The DSM is descriptive, not prescriptive. Autism is an actual condition or range of conditions; it exists to some extent in the successful adult population regardless of how well spotted it is.



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30 Mar 2012, 8:50 am

Which needs to be adhered to (the DSM that is).

Wing's paper on AS states that it's apparent that AS merges into the normal continuum of behavior. This is why they include the Criterion of needing to be impaired in some way ("considerable disability"). Cohen points out that this is the case too when he says about 50% who score over the threshold on the AQ test are diagnosed, whereas the others aren't.

Subclinical ASDs exist. It's shown by looking at the parents and relatives of those diagnosed.



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30 Mar 2012, 9:01 am

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Don't worry, just relax, and try to be yourself. Non_Autistics are not as attuned to body language as you may think.

TheSunAlsoRises


I was glad to actually hear that from somebody here. That has made me feel much better. Thanks. :)


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Verdandi
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30 Mar 2012, 9:06 am

fraac wrote:
The DSM is descriptive, not prescriptive. Autism is an actual condition or range of conditions; it exists to some extent in the successful adult population regardless of how well spotted it is.


Why would someone who is not impaired ever need a diagnosis? What purpose would it serve? What would it accomplish?

If they're not impaired, they don't have anything to diagnose.



fraac
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30 Mar 2012, 9:17 am

Verdandi wrote:
fraac wrote:
The DSM is descriptive, not prescriptive. Autism is an actual condition or range of conditions; it exists to some extent in the successful adult population regardless of how well spotted it is.


Why would someone who is not impaired ever need a diagnosis? What purpose would it serve? What would it accomplish?

If they're not impaired, they don't have anything to diagnose.


Except for a completely different way of seeing the world that may have more in common with other autistics than with nonautistic successful people. Why are you wondering about the topic if by definition autism equals impairment? Shouldn't the OP study seem like a truism to you?



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30 Mar 2012, 9:28 am

fraac wrote:
Except for a completely different way of seeing the world that may have more in common with other autistics than with nonautistic successful people. Why are you wondering about the topic if by definition autism equals impairment? Shouldn't the OP study seem like a truism to you?


That's what broad autistic phenotype is for. I have no issues with people who are not otherwise impaired identifying more with autistic perspectives. But yes, by definition autism equals impairment. If you're not impaired, you're not autistic. Since when do people need a medical diagnosis to adopt an identity? Who really needs a diagnosis just to say "yes, I identify with autistic people?"

The article I posted in the OP stood out to me because it said that autism severity did not impact outcomes. Which is a bit more nuanced than "in order to be diagnosed, you must have an impairment."



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30 Mar 2012, 9:41 am

OddDuckNash99 wrote:
I do agree that a lot of kids and teens growing up today who were diagnosed earlier often are allowed to use their AS as a crutch. Obviously, AS can be a major hinderance in life, and there are many who are unable to "succeed" in a neurotypical sense of the word because of the AS. It is a disability, after all. But it really bugs me HOW many accommodations AS youth gets nowadays and HOW early they start getting said accommodations. I wasn't diagnosed until college, so I had to struggle my whole life. Yes, I wish that I could have had some accommodations and more awareness when I was a kid, but overall, I'm glad I grew up when I did.

I was forced to have to learn how to adapt to the struggles AS causes, and I have overcome many obstacles because I was pushed to try the things that were hard for me. Some of these things are things I am simply unable to accomplish, but many are things I was able to do despite them being hard. What I see in today's AS youth is a problem- they are often given accommodations and permission to get out of assignments from the get-go. Like, writing essays is hard for most of us, but is it really fair to anyone if the AS kid simply doesn't have to TRY? Accommodations for a disability are, of course, essential in some areas, but the bottom line is that we AS individuals are in the minority. We live in an NT world, and we DO need to learn how to live in that NT world. I feel that today's generation just gets to coast by and never gets prepared for the REAL world. There isn't an "IEP" in college or in the workforce...


And yet some of us disprove this notion that being expected to just tough it out didn't work so well. No one knew I had AS when I was a child...and I think if anything being expected to function normally was detrimental to me......and I just ended up pushing myself too hard, beating myself up when I could not live up to expectations and well I kinda fail at life so yeah trying is good......but trying too hard and too much apparently can have detrimental effects. Also I don't feel like we need to 'fit in' to the NT world...I think having a neurodiverse(is the therm I've seen thrown around) world would make more sense. Besides I am sure there are NT's who hate this society just as much as I do but I can't say for certain. Maybe more people could deal with the 'real world'......I mean its a childish game.

But I am kind of glad I was always an outcast at school, have me plenty of time to observe how screwed up everything is from the outside, as for life I am sure I will manage to scrape by somehow....but yeah not having any of my difficulties acknowledged contributed to my negative view of myself probably because I was always to blame and was always doing something 'wrong'...even if I had no idea what was wrong about it.


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Last edited by Sweetleaf on 30 Mar 2012, 9:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

fraac
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30 Mar 2012, 9:47 am

Verdandi, we certainly disagree about the nature of autism because I think it's a brain condition rather than a set of symptoms. Otherwise you have people being autistic or not autistic in a way that varies with their environment. Someone born with a missing kidney who lives a normal life but whose son dies from a kidney infection has an actual condition, in my opinion.



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30 Mar 2012, 9:50 am

fraac wrote:
Verdandi, we certainly disagree about the nature of autism because I think it's a brain condition rather than a set of symptoms. Otherwise you have people being autistic or not autistic in a way that varies with their environment. Someone born with a missing kidney who lives a normal life but whose son dies from a kidney infection has an actual condition, in my opinion.


I think the most frustrating part of this thread for me is that people keep revising my opinions and telling me that's what I actually think.



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30 Mar 2012, 9:54 am

fraac wrote:
Verdandi, we certainly disagree about the nature of autism because I think it's a brain condition rather than a set of symptoms. Otherwise you have people being autistic or not autistic in a way that varies with their environment. Someone born with a missing kidney who lives a normal life but whose son dies from a kidney infection has an actual condition, in my opinion.



It's diagnosed as a set of symptoms, because they can't look at ones brain and determine if they have autism. At least that is what I learned in psychology......but yeah there are not as far along as some people seem to think. I mean they have enough trouble seeing any specific varietions in general due to how different different peoples brains already are. Not to mention what if someone develops a disorder they did not have before but they only get a brain scan after?......well then they don't have a previous one to compare it to so they can't really see what's changed for instance.


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30 Mar 2012, 9:54 am

OddDuckNash99 wrote:
I do agree that a lot of kids and teens growing up today who were diagnosed earlier often are allowed to use their AS as a crutch. Obviously, AS can be a major hinderance in life, and there are many who are unable to "succeed" in a neurotypical sense of the word because of the AS. It is a disability, after all. But it really bugs me HOW many accommodations AS youth gets nowadays and HOW early they start getting said accommodations. I wasn't diagnosed until college, so I had to struggle my whole life. Yes, I wish that I could have had some accommodations and more awareness when I was a kid, but overall, I'm glad I grew up when I did.

I was forced to have to learn how to adapt to the struggles AS causes, and I have overcome many obstacles because I was pushed to try the things that were hard for me. Some of these things are things I am simply unable to accomplish, but many are things I was able to do despite them being hard. What I see in today's AS youth is a problem- they are often given accommodations and permission to get out of assignments from the get-go. Like, writing essays is hard for most of us, but is it really fair to anyone if the AS kid simply doesn't have to TRY? Accommodations for a disability are, of course, essential in some areas, but the bottom line is that we AS individuals are in the minority. We live in an NT world, and we DO need to learn how to live in that NT world. I feel that today's generation just gets to coast by and never gets prepared for the REAL world. There isn't an "IEP" in college or in the workforce...


Exactly, and even I had an IEP and was in and out of special ed at some points throughout grade school.

This was the 90s though,, and the attitude was nothing like it is now.

The difference is the acknowledgement of a disability and what seems to be the promotion of a disability.

The promotion of suffering and focusing on one's problems, sometimes as a way to bond with each other. I can't believe how much of the "normal" population I'm seeing this with.


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Last edited by EXPECIALLY on 30 Mar 2012, 10:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

fraac
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30 Mar 2012, 9:56 am

Verdandi wrote:
fraac wrote:
Verdandi, we certainly disagree about the nature of autism because I think it's a brain condition rather than a set of symptoms. Otherwise you have people being autistic or not autistic in a way that varies with their environment. Someone born with a missing kidney who lives a normal life but whose son dies from a kidney infection has an actual condition, in my opinion.


I think the most frustrating part of this thread for me is that people keep revising my opinions and telling me that's what I actually think.


I was using implication to show what appears to me to be inconsistency.



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30 Mar 2012, 10:06 am

fraac wrote:
Verdandi wrote:
fraac wrote:
Verdandi, we certainly disagree about the nature of autism because I think it's a brain condition rather than a set of symptoms. Otherwise you have people being autistic or not autistic in a way that varies with their environment. Someone born with a missing kidney who lives a normal life but whose son dies from a kidney infection has an actual condition, in my opinion.


I think the most frustrating part of this thread for me is that people keep revising my opinions and telling me that's what I actually think.


I was using implication to show what appears to me to be inconsistency.


If people keep doing it why can't you see that they may be right?

Fraac said exactly what I was "trying" to say to you, I didn't bother responding after you asked me what I was "trying" to say because I'd already said it. There's no way you'd ask me that if you'd been listening at all.

But this site is supposed to be for therapeutic for some and I've seen what happens here when the mods get involved so it's NBD.. Anyway, I'm genuinely not trying to argue with or prove anything, you're trying to "disprove" something that I never said was the absolute truth.


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Verdandi
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30 Mar 2012, 10:09 am

fraac wrote:
Verdandi wrote:
fraac wrote:
Verdandi, we certainly disagree about the nature of autism because I think it's a brain condition rather than a set of symptoms. Otherwise you have people being autistic or not autistic in a way that varies with their environment. Someone born with a missing kidney who lives a normal life but whose son dies from a kidney infection has an actual condition, in my opinion.


I think the most frustrating part of this thread for me is that people keep revising my opinions and telling me that's what I actually think.


I was using implication to show what appears to me to be inconsistency.


What's the inconsistency? The DSM says right in the criteria that you are required to experience serious impairments in order to receive a diagnosis. Why should exceptions be made for people on the basis of claimed identities?

The thing about diagnosing conditions from the DSM is that they generally have to be diagnosed using symptoms and impairment because there aren't any objective tests for them. It doesn't mean that all they are is symptoms. Someone who has a single kidney can be identified as such without doing a screening and an ADOS and an ADI-R or equivalent. You don't have to spend time explaining your perceptions and experiences and difficulties. It's right there. At worst, you have to describe the symptoms so that the tests are run, but the tests are fairly objective: There's one kidney, and that can lead to complications of various kinds even if it currently is not a problem.

a diagnosis because of a thinking style without any impairment sounds like getting vanity license plates.



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30 Mar 2012, 10:10 am

Swordfish210 wrote:
Dillogic wrote:
If a "successful" person with autism meets the criteria for an ASD, then there you go. You can be severely socially disabled but still a computer genius who earns a zillion dollars a year, but who has no success at relationships due to said social disability. This person can be seen as a "success" (but also a "failure"). You go to a doctor to see why you're having these relationship problems.... ASD.

I know a successful person with an ASD, but again, "success" is in the eyes of the beholder [and its rays of petrification].


I totally agree!

I myself have nearly finished my uni degree, have held jobs before that were very stable and live in a student house. Fairly successfull according to most. On the other hand, I experience severe anxiety if I talk to people further than the 'hello, nice weather' talk unless they are my closest relatives, have no friends, freak out because I have to take a bus and sit besides someone and go mute because I wore the wrong clothes. Still successfull in life?


I agree with both of you, and yes success is definitely relative but I was going by the criteria of that list.

Not having a family is a reality but I've seen enough married Aspies here and Aspies in relationships to know that there is a trend.


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