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linatet
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09 Mar 2014, 7:09 am

Verdandi wrote:
linatet wrote:
well, I don't see them as constituted entirely by a few actions and attitudes, as it is not them I am criticizing but exactly those attitudes I have seen.
it's unfair because in English I can't express myself well. Hmm in fact I can't express myself well anyway but it still gets worse :lol:


But do those attitudes reflect the person or do they simply reflect grievances expressed in the particular moment when they wrote those posts or started those threads? Is it wrong to have grievances ever?

I hope this just reflects a temporary state of mind. But based on my experience most of the times it is unlikely since even in real life I know people that have those attitudes and thoughts.
also it is not about rants, but much broader. Exploring the same example I used in an above comment, there is this person who expects acceptance but has intolerant attitudes himself (writing himself/herself all the time is tiring, is there any other way of saying it?). Then how is it he expects to be accepted if he is not accepting of others?



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09 Mar 2014, 8:20 am

This reminds me of that Ezra kid getting annoyed over stuff too.



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09 Mar 2014, 9:28 am

linatet wrote:
Verdandi wrote:
But do those attitudes reflect the person or do they simply reflect grievances expressed in the particular moment when they wrote those posts or started those threads? Is it wrong to have grievances ever?

I hope this just reflects a temporary state of mind. But based on my experience most of the times it is unlikely since even in real life I know people that have those attitudes and thoughts.
also it is not about rants, but much broader. Exploring the same example I used in an above comment, there is this person who expects acceptance but has intolerant attitudes himself (writing himself/herself all the time is tiring, is there any other way of saying it?). Then how is it he expects to be accepted if he is not accepting of others?


Singular "they," so "they/them/themself/theirs."

A lot of people believe it's grammatically incorrect, but this isn't true. Singular they has been around for centuries, and was used by such notables as Chaucer, Jane Austen, and William Shakespeare.

Someone who expects acceptance but gives none is misguided.



linatet
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09 Mar 2014, 9:34 am

Verdandi wrote:
linatet wrote:
Verdandi wrote:
But do those attitudes reflect the person or do they simply reflect grievances expressed in the particular moment when they wrote those posts or started those threads? Is it wrong to have grievances ever?

I hope this just reflects a temporary state of mind. But based on my experience most of the times it is unlikely since even in real life I know people that have those attitudes and thoughts.
also it is not about rants, but much broader. Exploring the same example I used in an above comment, there is this person who expects acceptance but has intolerant attitudes himself (writing himself/herself all the time is tiring, is there any other way of saying it?). Then how is it he expects to be accepted if he is not accepting of others?


Singular "they," so "they/them/themself/theirs."

A lot of people believe it's grammatically incorrect, but this isn't true. Singular they has been around for centuries, and was used by such notables as Chaucer, Jane Austen, and William Shakespeare.

Someone who expects acceptance but gives none is misguided.

a little off topic but this they as singular is pretty weird. Sometimes I use it but it sounds like it's wrong, for instance "a person that talks to themself". But if it's okay then I will use it. In my language we don't have this problem since words have gender. Person for instance is 'she'. I like languages a lot.



linatet
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09 Mar 2014, 9:39 am

vickygleitz wrote:
Kingdom of Rats; What you are saying, is, unfortunately true. I saw this take place at the mini retreat here in Colorado a couple weeks ago. Every person at the retreat was "different" and had suffered through being treated "less than," been excluded and even abused for being different. Every person at AutHaven would NEVER exclude someone for being "too different." Except, it happened.

No one was deliberately cruel to this person, but there were a number [large number] of "What's wrong with him? Why is he doing that? That is so weird." type comments. It did seem that the more highly intelligent, physically attractive,obviously talented, and/or more "normal"behaving attendees had the biggest issue with this particular person. And that bothers me...a lot.

You are so "spot on" in your assessment, and I admire you for standing up and speaking out on this issue.

yeah Kingdom of Rats is one of the users I admire the most ! And I like her blog too.



linatet
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09 Mar 2014, 9:40 am

vickygleitz wrote:
Kingdom of Rats; What you are saying, is, unfortunately true. I saw this take place at the mini retreat here in Colorado a couple weeks ago. Every person at the retreat was "different" and had suffered through being treated "less than," been excluded and even abused for being different. Every person at AutHaven would NEVER exclude someone for being "too different." Except, it happened.

No one was deliberately cruel to this person, but there were a number [large number] of "What's wrong with him? Why is he doing that? That is so weird." type comments. It did seem that the more highly intelligent, physically attractive,obviously talented, and/or more "normal"behaving attendees had the biggest issue with this particular person. And that bothers me...a lot.

You are so "spot on" in your assessment, and I admire you for standing up and speaking out on this issue.

saddening situation. :(
and yeah Kingdom of Rats is one of the users I admire the most ! And I like her blog too.



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09 Mar 2014, 9:42 am

linatet wrote:
Verdandi wrote:
linatet wrote:
Verdandi wrote:
But do those attitudes reflect the person or do they simply reflect grievances expressed in the particular moment when they wrote those posts or started those threads? Is it wrong to have grievances ever?

I hope this just reflects a temporary state of mind. But based on my experience most of the times it is unlikely since even in real life I know people that have those attitudes and thoughts.
also it is not about rants, but much broader. Exploring the same example I used in an above comment, there is this person who expects acceptance but has intolerant attitudes himself (writing himself/herself all the time is tiring, is there any other way of saying it?). Then how is it he expects to be accepted if he is not accepting of others?


Singular "they," so "they/them/themself/theirs."

A lot of people believe it's grammatically incorrect, but this isn't true. Singular they has been around for centuries, and was used by such notables as Chaucer, Jane Austen, and William Shakespeare.

Someone who expects acceptance but gives none is misguided.

a little off topic but this they as singular is pretty weird. Sometimes I use it but it sounds like it's wrong, for instance "a person that talks to themself". But if it's okay then I will use it. In my language we don't have this problem since words have gender. Person for instance is 'she'. I like languages a lot.


It sounds weird when you're not used to it, I agree. Use makes it easier.

And languages are awesome. :)



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09 Mar 2014, 10:27 am

When I first saw this thread, it didn't interest me, but then I saw that it was getting longer and some people whose posts I have been enriched commented on it so I gave it another look.

AngelRho, not everyone is you or has your capacities. Most people, NT or otherwise, find starting a small business to be quite difficult. It seems odd, given what can easily be learned about disability in general (and executive dysfunction and social communication deficits in particular) to make the assertions you've made here.

One thing the whole thread makes me think of is the idea that people often are annoyed by seeing in others things they dislike or disown in themselves.

Edited to add:
The whole discussion of ableism is very interesting. I want to be as able as I can be, but I am better of if I work around the things I really can't do than just try and fail over and again. It took decades of trying really hard for me to figure that out, and even longer to understand why it like this, but self-knowledge of limitations is a good thing, although you have to avoid letting that knowledge get In the way of enjoying life.



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09 Mar 2014, 11:03 am

Verdandi wrote:
linatet wrote:
I want to be able to help everyone but that's not up to me. People have to do effort themselves to get what they want and they have to realize that arrogant, self-defeating or self-pitting attitude is not going to get them anywhere.
it sounded like a ranting or mocking but because I was annoyed and being emotional.


This is something called a fundamental attribution error. It's the tendency people have to view others as being constituted entirely on a few actions, attitudes, etc. Like seeing someone here express frustration about their difficulties and characterizing them as having self-defeating or self-pitying attitudes even though what we see on this forum is a very narrow slice of anyone's life.

Imo people are in any given moment what they are saying at that particular moment if they are identified with that point of view. When the verbiage has a rant like quality and they keep repeating it over and over without changing much of anything (even building up resistance in many others to their cause) and only referring very vaguely to so called facts and making broad generalizations intended to stir up emotions, I do not call it active processing of data. Also, this forum is a world. Ideas are interconnected to sensation and they set the topography of this world, give it shape, and what happens inside this shape is, in a sense, the world for those participating here and now. I do many kind deeds and and generally act from an altruistic motivation, but sometimes I may have a negative feeling toward someone who has harmed me. I would not like to be in this latter state at any moment, but especially the moment when I die, and I think most people would place more value on the moment when they die, as it is a person's last chance to make an impression on the world.. I would like at all moments, but especially at that final moment. to be in a state of non-identification and compassion, You may not be able to understand how this comment applies here, but maybe someone else will, and I hope you will. What you do HERE is who you are HERE, and this is what connects with the world. In fact I am always kind of surprised to see people make this argument that you are trying to make about not knowing the whole person. It is to me kind of a lame argument.

There's one poster who loves to do this to me, claiming that I know nothing about "real activism" because all she's seen of me is on this forum, and the rest of my life is completely irrelevant to her judgment.

Verdandi I am talking about being impartial and doing conscious activism and not activism out of reaction. This does not mean there is not some kind of altruistic emotion in what I would call reactive activism, or that this activism cannot even help someone, but that it is mixed in with all kinds of other stuff which dissipates the potential force and soils the purity. In fact this is the most difficult part to get across. You're not the only one who does not seem to understand this and I am apparently not very good at explaining it. Maybe I should write about this more.

When given information to correct her mistaken beliefs, she rejects that information because it is easier to miscategorize me as someone she can criticize for not doing, knowing, or understanding things that I do, know, and understand, but that because these things are somewhat beyond the scope of this forum she can constantly act as if they don't exist.

Of course you are engaging in some kind of real life activities, and I know you care about other people. This is obvious. You are having trouble getting the simple idea I have been trying to explain. My beliefs about there being a possibility for impartial activism rather than reactive "activism" are not mistaken. Of course there is such a possibility, and you have never given me any kind of information to correct any kind of so-called mistaken beliefs. This is how I see it--all this grudge holding and misrepresentation takes away power from the possibility to be a real activist. You are taking the meaning of the world "real" literally. I am not implying by the use of this word that you are not doing some actual activities that are some form of activism. I can see how you might have this kind of response to what I have written, though, if you do not get the gist of this simple point I am trying to make. We both are autistic and can get caught up into literalism and making over generalities and thinking/feeling the other person will automatically understand...

Quote:
There's one poster who loves to do this to me

I do not love to do this to you, ha ha-weep. Actually I find responding to you, such as now, really quite unpleasant and even have had to force myself to write, this message but feel it is my responsibility to respond as I feel (taking this terminology from you, so from the horses mouth) the kind of attitude and innuendo you are engaging in is poisoning the well. So how can good intent poison the well? It can when it is mixed in with reaction and grudge holding, and speaking of in myself, too. The question is--how to sort it out, separate the wheat from the chaff, remove the stains? Actually I do get some personal benefit out of writing to you, as it helps me to look at myself, so in this sense, I do love it, but this is only written after the fact, as the insight about being pure in the moment occurred just now.



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09 Mar 2014, 12:45 pm

Adamantium wrote:
When I first saw this thread, it didn't interest me, but then I saw that it was getting longer and some people whose posts I have been enriched commented on it so I gave it another look.

AngelRho, not everyone is you or has your capacities. Most people, NT or otherwise, find starting a small business to be quite difficult. It seems odd, given what can easily be learned about disability in general (and executive dysfunction and social communication deficits in particular) to make the assertions you've made here.

One thing the whole thread makes me think of is the idea that people often are annoyed by seeing in others things they dislike or disown in themselves.

Well, I don't disagree. No, not everyone has the same capacities as I do, nor do I have a number of capacities that others have that I wish I had myself.

I'm not annoyed that people express natural emotions such as loneliness or desperation when they indeed cannot themselves change their circumstances. What annoys me is that there are those who CAN take control over their circumstances and for various reasons, not all of them in my opinion good, fail to do so. What is especially bothersome to me is that there are those who'd rather whine about it than make any effort at all.

I can't help that kind of person, and I'm convinced nobody can. I CAN help someone with the both the ability to do something about it and the will to do so. Moreover I'm convinced more people lack the will much more than they lack the ability. If it is social anxiety that destroys the will, or if it is something like irrational fear that destroys the will, then there are steps one can take to fix that. All I want to do is encourage those who are hobbled primarily by fear and anxiety.

Those who lack the physical and mental ability I cannot help. It's not that I don't care, it's just that I'm ill-equipped to do so. There are better people than I am to do that sort of thing, but by no means is anything I've said a blanket condemnation of those who even under the best circumstances are unable to help themselves.



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09 Mar 2014, 1:13 pm

Okay. Then don't 'help" those people. Just give yourself a pat on the back for being omniscient [IRL, is your name god?] and quit saying things to make them feel worse. Also, I could send you my "being worthy of receiving help resume". If I qualify,do you think you could help me out with a couple hundred dollars?



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09 Mar 2014, 2:01 pm

1) Yes, I have seen this on WP, and I generally ignore it.

2) Yes, I have seen this on WP, and I generally have trouble perceiving it, so I try to give some practical suggestions that probably end up useless for certain people with certain mindsets, but could be useful for others reading the threads.

3) Discussing these theories is fine with me, but to people reading these discussions, I suggest that you rely on broad collection of sources beyond wp for reliable information about autism.


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09 Mar 2014, 2:03 pm

vickygleitz wrote:
Okay. Then don't 'help" those people. Just give yourself a pat on the back for being omniscient [IRL, is your name god?] and quit saying things to make them feel worse. Also, I could send you my "being worthy of receiving help resume". If I qualify,do you think you could help me out with a couple hundred dollars?


I'm just going to follow you around and say, What she said!

The omniscient point is a very good one. I often surprised that people on this forum fall for that idea (that they know what somebody else's struggles are) - because haven't we all been put through people making those stupid assumptions about us ourselves. Hasn't pretty much everyone here had somebody look at them say, Why aren't you doing A or Why do you act like B, or Why are you pretending you have C?

Aren't there things in all of our lives that people can't comprehend about us? Lucky you if you there aren't, but you are on an autism forum and people here will discuss problems related to autism.

I myself wish the forum was more geared toward proactive help, but I think in a way that because we process life the same way, maybe it is, it's just that we all are very slowly proactive. But seriously if it's too whiny for you, why don't you split your time between here and a place that is less whiny? It's an autism forum.

I honestly find this kind of attitude to be a form of hate speech.



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09 Mar 2014, 2:20 pm

AngelRho wrote:
People that whine and complain about how "I can't" either don't really want to or they simply are unaware that they CAN. It's not easy to break from that comfort zone, but what I've found is that opens up new patterns and routines that, while they do vastly increase the difficulty of the tasks I'm performing, tend to become their own comfort zone. I think if someone can learn to let go of any unreasonable requirements that an activity be "practical" in some self-referential sense, one can focus on being productive and let that activity speak for itself. We tend to build up anxiety and fear over those kinds of "big picture" kinds of things. It is impossible for me to turn out some huge, massively-selling, award-winning instrumental album. Fine. So I focus on what IS possible…I can compose/arrange/record 14 tracks that could be compiled into an album that, if I ordered 500 copies, I would AT LEAST break even. I CAN'T do that in a day, week, or even a month…but I CAN sketch out lead sheets, and I can do a complete lead sheet in less than an hour or two--and that's just with pencil and paper. I can write enough material for 2 or 3 albums in less than a month's time, and if I take just one tune a week that I wrote that really seems to have potential, I can record it and polish it in under two weeks. So if I just focus going one track at a time, I can have the entire project completed in 6 months…8 months tops.


This is super useful advice, and special interest is good way to use it. I am using this all the time and getting bester at using it from when I first started figuring this out for myself. I have some projects sitting on project shelf, and applying this strategy will help me bring these things to reality.


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09 Mar 2014, 2:35 pm

<--- Likes the way Kingdom of Rats writes. Very even tempered, she is and makes lots of sense.



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09 Mar 2014, 2:38 pm

btbnnyr wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
People that whine and complain about how "I can't" either don't really want to or they simply are unaware that they CAN. It's not easy to break from that comfort zone, but what I've found is that opens up new patterns and routines that, while they do vastly increase the difficulty of the tasks I'm performing, tend to become their own comfort zone. I think if someone can learn to let go of any unreasonable requirements that an activity be "practical" in some self-referential sense, one can focus on being productive and let that activity speak for itself. We tend to build up anxiety and fear over those kinds of "big picture" kinds of things. It is impossible for me to turn out some huge, massively-selling, award-winning instrumental album. Fine. So I focus on what IS possible…I can compose/arrange/record 14 tracks that could be compiled into an album that, if I ordered 500 copies, I would AT LEAST break even. I CAN'T do that in a day, week, or even a month…but I CAN sketch out lead sheets, and I can do a complete lead sheet in less than an hour or two--and that's just with pencil and paper. I can write enough material for 2 or 3 albums in less than a month's time, and if I take just one tune a week that I wrote that really seems to have potential, I can record it and polish it in under two weeks. So if I just focus going one track at a time, I can have the entire project completed in 6 months…8 months tops.


This is super useful advice, and special interest is good way to use it. I am using this all the time and getting bester at using it from when I first started figuring this out for myself. I have some projects sitting on project shelf, and applying this strategy will help me bring these things to reality.


I agree, it's a lot like what I'm trying to do writing my book. But some people aren't there yet and who are we to say they should have to be or they are whiny or self defeating if they aren't?

What I really wish is that there was some Autism school that we could all go to to help us understand exactly things like this. Also, I could really use a class that explained money to me in a way I could understand it because I'm a mess in that area. I think if people had mentors and little pushes and someone helping them cut down the massive jungle overgrowth so they could forge a path, Autistic people could really come out and shine as a group.