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Defeatism, or "Learned Helplessness".

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smudge
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11 Dec 2019, 12:37 pm

Therapy, or at least the beneficial kind just doesn't exist here. I dunno what to do except to be my own counsellor. I know myself and talk to myself more kindly than most therapists ever did. It makes you wonder how most of them became qualified. The very basic mistakes some of them make is really unbelievable.


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11 Dec 2019, 12:53 pm

smudge wrote:
Therapy, or at least the beneficial kind just doesn't exist here. I dunno what to do except to be my own counsellor. I know myself and talk to myself more kindly than most therapists ever did. It makes you wonder how most of them became qualified. The very basic mistakes some of them make is really unbelievable.
I am very good at that as well. My analytical persona can detach from myself and see myself from a third party perspective as if watching myself in a movie. Then I can analyze my thoughts, actions, and interactions and understand a lot of them as if I were looking at other people objectively. I can then change how I think, feel and act accordingly. Unfortunately this never happens in the moment. I have to "review the tapes" well after the fact so other than being a great debriefing and analysis, I don't know how helpful it is practically. But it really helps me understand things beyond my own perspective. Contrary to popular belief, my Theory of Mind is incredibly developed. And I use this ability to educate my therapists and other people who are interested in my Autistic perspective.


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magz
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11 Dec 2019, 1:00 pm

skibum wrote:
My analytical persona can detach from myself and see myself from a third party perspective as if watching myself in a movie. Then I can analyze my thoughts, actions, and interactions and understand a lot of them as if I were looking at other people objectively.

I do this, too!
But I needed a therapist anyway, because my analytical persona got too detached from my emotional persona and I ended up quite disintegrated.


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11 Dec 2019, 1:11 pm

magz wrote:
skibum wrote:
My analytical persona can detach from myself and see myself from a third party perspective as if watching myself in a movie. Then I can analyze my thoughts, actions, and interactions and understand a lot of them as if I were looking at other people objectively.

I do this, too!
But I needed a therapist anyway, because my analytical persona got too detached from my emotional persona and I ended up quite disintegrated.

Oh wow, that is interesting. I think most Autistics have this ability. I think it is part of how we survive. We have to analyze all of the situations we are in in order to understand how to navigate them since most situations seem to be geared for the intuitive social navigational skills that NTs have. I just think that some of us do it on a much more sophisticated and much more highly developed level than others. But I think almost all or us have to do it to a degree or we don't survive as Autistics in an NT world.


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11 Dec 2019, 1:12 pm

skibum wrote:
smudge wrote:
Therapy, or at least the beneficial kind just doesn't exist here. I dunno what to do except to be my own counsellor. I know myself and talk to myself more kindly than most therapists ever did. It makes you wonder how most of them became qualified. The very basic mistakes some of them make is really unbelievable.
I am very good at that as well. My analytical persona can detach from myself and see myself from a third party perspective as if watching myself in a movie. Then I can analyze my thoughts, actions, and interactions and understand a lot of them as if I were looking at other people objectively. I can then change how I think, feel and act accordingly. Unfortunately this never happens in the moment. I have to "review the tapes" well after the fact so other than being a great debriefing and analysis, I don't know how helpful it is practically. But it really helps me understand things beyond my own perspective. Contrary to popular belief, my Theory of Mind is incredibly developed. And I use this ability to educate my therapists and other people who are interested in my Autistic perspective.


OMG, I work in EXACTLY the same way. In the moment, I can't observe anything, even myself, but my mind records everything in the conversation: including body language, tone of voice, and most of the time what they say word for word. I go over the interaction in my head, with everybody, repeatedly until I have an idea of what actually happened, then again, and again until finally I "get it". This ability alone gives me a distinct advantage over other autistics and other people. I'm much more comfortable/less afraid to face what's "wrong" with myself and other people than a lot of people are. It's always incredibly amazing when I meet someone else with similar comfortableness, or even when they're better at it than I am. Especially those who can do it in real time, they fascinate me.


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magz
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11 Dec 2019, 1:22 pm

smudge wrote:
skibum wrote:
smudge wrote:
Therapy, or at least the beneficial kind just doesn't exist here. I dunno what to do except to be my own counsellor. I know myself and talk to myself more kindly than most therapists ever did. It makes you wonder how most of them became qualified. The very basic mistakes some of them make is really unbelievable.
I am very good at that as well. My analytical persona can detach from myself and see myself from a third party perspective as if watching myself in a movie. Then I can analyze my thoughts, actions, and interactions and understand a lot of them as if I were looking at other people objectively. I can then change how I think, feel and act accordingly. Unfortunately this never happens in the moment. I have to "review the tapes" well after the fact so other than being a great debriefing and analysis, I don't know how helpful it is practically. But it really helps me understand things beyond my own perspective. Contrary to popular belief, my Theory of Mind is incredibly developed. And I use this ability to educate my therapists and other people who are interested in my Autistic perspective.

OMG, I work in EXACTLY the same way. In the moment, I can't observe anything, even myself, but my mind records everything in the conversation: including body language, tone of voice, and most of the time what they say word for word. I go over the interaction in my head, with everybody, repeatedly until I have an idea of what actually happened, then again, and again until finally I "get it". This ability alone gives me a distinct advantage over other autistics and other people. I'm much more comfortable/less afraid to face what's "wrong" with myself and other people than a lot of people are. It's always incredibly amazing when I meet someone else with similar comfortableness, or even when they're better at it than I am. Especially those who can do it in real time, they fascinate me.

I used to do it in real time a lot.
It cost me my mental health - exhaustion without recognizing I was doing anything extraordinary. I just behaved like everybody else so I assumed everybody else was doing the same.


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Last edited by magz on 11 Dec 2019, 1:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.

smudge
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11 Dec 2019, 1:33 pm

magz wrote:
smudge wrote:
skibum wrote:
smudge wrote:
Therapy, or at least the beneficial kind just doesn't exist here. I dunno what to do except to be my own counsellor. I know myself and talk to myself more kindly than most therapists ever did. It makes you wonder how most of them became qualified. The very basic mistakes some of them make is really unbelievable.
I am very good at that as well. My analytical persona can detach from myself and see myself from a third party perspective as if watching myself in a movie. Then I can analyze my thoughts, actions, and interactions and understand a lot of them as if I were looking at other people objectively. I can then change how I think, feel and act accordingly. Unfortunately this never happens in the moment. I have to "review the tapes" well after the fact so other than being a great debriefing and analysis, I don't know how helpful it is practically. But it really helps me understand things beyond my own perspective. Contrary to popular belief, my Theory of Mind is incredibly developed. And I use this ability to educate my therapists and other people who are interested in my Autistic perspective.

OMG, I work in EXACTLY the same way. In the moment, I can't observe anything, even myself, but my mind records everything in the conversation: including body language, tone of voice, and most of the time what they say word for word. I go over the interaction in my head, with everybody, repeatedly until I have an idea of what actually happened, then again, and again until finally I "get it". This ability alone gives me a distinct advantage over other autistics and other people. I'm much more comfortable/less afraid to face what's "wrong" with myself and other people than a lot of people are. It's always incredibly amazing when I meet someone else with similar comfortableness, or even when they're better at it than I am. Especially those who can do it in real time, they fascinate me.

I used to do it in real time a lot.
It cost me my mental health - exhaustion without recognizing I was doing anything extraordinary.


In a life without literal rules and having to adapt constantly from literal thinking to constantly analysing what others really mean, with the fact that you get punished for it when you don't pick up on it at the right times etc. I'm not remotely surprised it can burn you out. It would take me massive concentration to be able to focus on everything at once in real time like that.

Also that's a massive problem with NTs - they can't, they are unable to see what it's doing to us and how complicated and hard work it is. Having to work on your conversation skills and keep up in real time is very hard work. To them it's nothing.


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11 Dec 2019, 1:36 pm

smudge wrote:
skibum wrote:
smudge wrote:
Therapy, or at least the beneficial kind just doesn't exist here. I dunno what to do except to be my own counsellor. I know myself and talk to myself more kindly than most therapists ever did. It makes you wonder how most of them became qualified. The very basic mistakes some of them make is really unbelievable.
I am very good at that as well. My analytical persona can detach from myself and see myself from a third party perspective as if watching myself in a movie. Then I can analyze my thoughts, actions, and interactions and understand a lot of them as if I were looking at other people objectively. I can then change how I think, feel and act accordingly. Unfortunately this never happens in the moment. I have to "review the tapes" well after the fact so other than being a great debriefing and analysis, I don't know how helpful it is practically. But it really helps me understand things beyond my own perspective. Contrary to popular belief, my Theory of Mind is incredibly developed. And I use this ability to educate my therapists and other people who are interested in my Autistic perspective.


OMG, I work in EXACTLY the same way. In the moment, I can't observe anything, even myself, but my mind records everything in the conversation: including body language, tone of voice, and most of the time what they say word for word. I go over the interaction in my head, with everybody, repeatedly until I have an idea of what actually happened, then again, and again until finally I "get it". This ability alone gives me a distinct advantage over other autistics and other people. I'm much more comfortable/less afraid to face what's "wrong" with myself and other people than a lot of people are. It's always incredibly amazing when I meet someone else with similar comfortableness, or even when they're better at it than I am. Especially those who can do it in real time, they fascinate me.
Yes, That is exactly how it is. You literally review the "mental tapes and videos" over and over and analyze from every angle. It is a very important survival and coping skill. In the moment, we are just too overwhelmed, the brain is just trying to put all it's resources into just surviving the experience. It is only afterwards, when we are more rested and in a safe place that we can then analyze and debrief.


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11 Dec 2019, 1:41 pm

magz wrote:
smudge wrote:
skibum wrote:
smudge wrote:
Therapy, or at least the beneficial kind just doesn't exist here. I dunno what to do except to be my own counsellor. I know myself and talk to myself more kindly than most therapists ever did. It makes you wonder how most of them became qualified. The very basic mistakes some of them make is really unbelievable.
I am very good at that as well. My analytical persona can detach from myself and see myself from a third party perspective as if watching myself in a movie. Then I can analyze my thoughts, actions, and interactions and understand a lot of them as if I were looking at other people objectively. I can then change how I think, feel and act accordingly. Unfortunately this never happens in the moment. I have to "review the tapes" well after the fact so other than being a great debriefing and analysis, I don't know how helpful it is practically. But it really helps me understand things beyond my own perspective. Contrary to popular belief, my Theory of Mind is incredibly developed. And I use this ability to educate my therapists and other people who are interested in my Autistic perspective.

OMG, I work in EXACTLY the same way. In the moment, I can't observe anything, even myself, but my mind records everything in the conversation: including body language, tone of voice, and most of the time what they say word for word. I go over the interaction in my head, with everybody, repeatedly until I have an idea of what actually happened, then again, and again until finally I "get it". This ability alone gives me a distinct advantage over other autistics and other people. I'm much more comfortable/less afraid to face what's "wrong" with myself and other people than a lot of people are. It's always incredibly amazing when I meet someone else with similar comfortableness, or even when they're better at it than I am. Especially those who can do it in real time, they fascinate me.

I used to do it in real time a lot.
It cost me my mental health - exhaustion without recognizing I was doing anything extraordinary. I just behaved like everybody else so I assumed everybody else was doing the same.
That is incredible. I don't have the processing speed to do it in real time. I can see how that would have totally destroyed you mentally just from sheer exhaustion. To me, the actual experience as it is happening in real time can be so exhausting in and of itself, that sometimes it takes a few days for me to be able to recover enough before I can thoroughly analyze it.


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11 Dec 2019, 1:42 pm

smudge wrote:
magz wrote:
smudge wrote:
skibum wrote:
smudge wrote:
Therapy, or at least the beneficial kind just doesn't exist here. I dunno what to do except to be my own counsellor. I know myself and talk to myself more kindly than most therapists ever did. It makes you wonder how most of them became qualified. The very basic mistakes some of them make is really unbelievable.
I am very good at that as well. My analytical persona can detach from myself and see myself from a third party perspective as if watching myself in a movie. Then I can analyze my thoughts, actions, and interactions and understand a lot of them as if I were looking at other people objectively. I can then change how I think, feel and act accordingly. Unfortunately this never happens in the moment. I have to "review the tapes" well after the fact so other than being a great debriefing and analysis, I don't know how helpful it is practically. But it really helps me understand things beyond my own perspective. Contrary to popular belief, my Theory of Mind is incredibly developed. And I use this ability to educate my therapists and other people who are interested in my Autistic perspective.

OMG, I work in EXACTLY the same way. In the moment, I can't observe anything, even myself, but my mind records everything in the conversation: including body language, tone of voice, and most of the time what they say word for word. I go over the interaction in my head, with everybody, repeatedly until I have an idea of what actually happened, then again, and again until finally I "get it". This ability alone gives me a distinct advantage over other autistics and other people. I'm much more comfortable/less afraid to face what's "wrong" with myself and other people than a lot of people are. It's always incredibly amazing when I meet someone else with similar comfortableness, or even when they're better at it than I am. Especially those who can do it in real time, they fascinate me.

I used to do it in real time a lot.
It cost me my mental health - exhaustion without recognizing I was doing anything extraordinary.


In a life without literal rules and having to adapt constantly from literal thinking to constantly analysing what others really mean, with the fact that you get punished for it when you don't pick up on it at the right times etc. I'm not remotely surprised it can burn you out. It would take me massive concentration to be able to focus on everything at once in real time like that.

Also that's a massive problem with NTs - they can't, they are unable to see what it's doing to us and how complicated and hard work it is. Having to work on your conversation skills and keep up in real time is very hard work. To them it's nothing.


FTR, I have no problem with NTs and don't feel like it's us vs. them. It's just this main problem, some of them sympathise, it depends how you word it to them yourself also.


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11 Dec 2019, 1:48 pm

skibum wrote:
magz wrote:
smudge wrote:
skibum wrote:
smudge wrote:
Therapy, or at least the beneficial kind just doesn't exist here. I dunno what to do except to be my own counsellor. I know myself and talk to myself more kindly than most therapists ever did. It makes you wonder how most of them became qualified. The very basic mistakes some of them make is really unbelievable.
I am very good at that as well. My analytical persona can detach from myself and see myself from a third party perspective as if watching myself in a movie. Then I can analyze my thoughts, actions, and interactions and understand a lot of them as if I were looking at other people objectively. I can then change how I think, feel and act accordingly. Unfortunately this never happens in the moment. I have to "review the tapes" well after the fact so other than being a great debriefing and analysis, I don't know how helpful it is practically. But it really helps me understand things beyond my own perspective. Contrary to popular belief, my Theory of Mind is incredibly developed. And I use this ability to educate my therapists and other people who are interested in my Autistic perspective.

OMG, I work in EXACTLY the same way. In the moment, I can't observe anything, even myself, but my mind records everything in the conversation: including body language, tone of voice, and most of the time what they say word for word. I go over the interaction in my head, with everybody, repeatedly until I have an idea of what actually happened, then again, and again until finally I "get it". This ability alone gives me a distinct advantage over other autistics and other people. I'm much more comfortable/less afraid to face what's "wrong" with myself and other people than a lot of people are. It's always incredibly amazing when I meet someone else with similar comfortableness, or even when they're better at it than I am. Especially those who can do it in real time, they fascinate me.

I used to do it in real time a lot.
It cost me my mental health - exhaustion without recognizing I was doing anything extraordinary. I just behaved like everybody else so I assumed everybody else was doing the same.
That is incredible. I don't have the processing speed to do it in real time. I can see how that would have totally destroyed you mentally just from sheer exhaustion. To me, the actual experience as it is happening in real time can be so exhausting in and of itself, that sometimes it takes a few days for me to be able to recover enough before I can thoroughly analyze it.

Honestly? Now I know it was incredible. When I was doing it, I was always frustrated by inevitable failures that came every now and then. I believed everyone did the same, only others did it better 8O
I finally got an answer to violent fluctuations of my intellectual abilities. I used them up on horribly hard puzzles every single day.


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11 Dec 2019, 2:00 pm

magz wrote:
skibum wrote:
magz wrote:
smudge wrote:
skibum wrote:
smudge wrote:
Therapy, or at least the beneficial kind just doesn't exist here. I dunno what to do except to be my own counsellor. I know myself and talk to myself more kindly than most therapists ever did. It makes you wonder how most of them became qualified. The very basic mistakes some of them make is really unbelievable.
I am very good at that as well. My analytical persona can detach from myself and see myself from a third party perspective as if watching myself in a movie. Then I can analyze my thoughts, actions, and interactions and understand a lot of them as if I were looking at other people objectively. I can then change how I think, feel and act accordingly. Unfortunately this never happens in the moment. I have to "review the tapes" well after the fact so other than being a great debriefing and analysis, I don't know how helpful it is practically. But it really helps me understand things beyond my own perspective. Contrary to popular belief, my Theory of Mind is incredibly developed. And I use this ability to educate my therapists and other people who are interested in my Autistic perspective.

OMG, I work in EXACTLY the same way. In the moment, I can't observe anything, even myself, but my mind records everything in the conversation: including body language, tone of voice, and most of the time what they say word for word. I go over the interaction in my head, with everybody, repeatedly until I have an idea of what actually happened, then again, and again until finally I "get it". This ability alone gives me a distinct advantage over other autistics and other people. I'm much more comfortable/less afraid to face what's "wrong" with myself and other people than a lot of people are. It's always incredibly amazing when I meet someone else with similar comfortableness, or even when they're better at it than I am. Especially those who can do it in real time, they fascinate me.

I used to do it in real time a lot.
It cost me my mental health - exhaustion without recognizing I was doing anything extraordinary. I just behaved like everybody else so I assumed everybody else was doing the same.
That is incredible. I don't have the processing speed to do it in real time. I can see how that would have totally destroyed you mentally just from sheer exhaustion. To me, the actual experience as it is happening in real time can be so exhausting in and of itself, that sometimes it takes a few days for me to be able to recover enough before I can thoroughly analyze it.

Honestly? Now I know it was incredible. When I was doing it, I was always frustrated by inevitable failures that came every now and then. I believed everyone did the same, only others did it better 8O
I finally got an answer to violent fluctuations of my intellectual abilities. I used them up on horribly hard puzzles every single day.
That is very cool about the puzzles!


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11 Dec 2019, 5:23 pm

I'm still very certain that my executive dysfunction is more medical (physical/biochemical) in nature than psychological or learned.


How else is the reason why I get contrasting living experiences as opposed to a consistent one? How else I knew what it was like having EF and not having it? And the 'rare' waking up with a working EF? That's supposedly the 'healthy' status that anyone who gets that vital ingredient seem to get everyday or night every time one wakes up from a night's sleep.
When those days come I thought I grew into a real adult or progressed something -- but the truth is that I didn't grew or learned something new. It was my real status the whole time and it was just suppressed by something else in my head or lacking something important to having it work. :x

I have the skills the whole time and still do. I just had to get rid of whatever's suppressing my choice of ever accessing it.
I just cannot access it the same way someone who can write and create things with hands, with all the knowledge and experiences, then suddenly losing the motor function and visualization abilities for days long because of fatigue.

Therefore I'm sick for years somewhere and somehow the whole time; I lack the energy because I didn't get the vital ingredient. My 'usual' is comparably an exhausted state, I barely knew what it was like not to be.
And energy is needed in order to have the ability to function.


This is not autism's hardwired cognitive 'dysfunctions', nor usual autistics' negligent 'circumstances' I'm dealing with.
Yet hardwired 'vulnerability' makes more sense via comorbidity. And others are blaming autism for it, instead of helping me investigate so I'm practically on my own with this heavy baggage blinding me away from any progress along the way.


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12 Dec 2019, 6:11 am

^ What you say sounds interesting, but do you have evidence for it?


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12 Dec 2019, 6:13 am

There is a definite neurological basis to autism.

This is true in the area of “executive dysfunction.”



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12 Dec 2019, 7:40 am

smudge wrote:
^ What you say sounds interesting, but do you have evidence for it?

I only have personal observations so far, along with varying witnesses of said changes. The contrast is also externally visible as it is internally.
And I'd also like other accounts similar to this.


Whenever I wake up with a working EF, the main similarities I've observed so far is some form of deep sleep. It's seemingly uncommon and random.
Anything else -- diet, activity, exposures, reproductive cycles, external situations, emotions or moods -- seems to be ignored though...
The sleep at those nights are different; it's like I slept much deeper and seemingly sense lost time completely as opposed to just 'lost time' in the dark.
The sensation of having to sleep like forever... When it's only few hours. This is not my 'usual' sleep.
And waking up energized, aware (not absentminded nor vigilant)... No shortness of breath, no headaches, no 'heavy' feeling, no 'stress'... This is not my 'usual' awaking.


So yes, my own point so far is just constant non restorative sleep -- possibly a form of insomnia. Sleep disorders are common within the spectrum.

And I possibly just got a taste of that 'vital' ingredient... 3 hours gave me a whole day, 8 hours gave me a week.


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