Is anyone else sick of the anti-NT bias?

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FTW

You say that as though it's a bad thing. And as though it isn't true.

mono-lith-ic / a: constituting as massive undifferentiated and often rigid whole / b: exhibiting or characterize by often rigidly fixed uniformity... / That definition works for me.

Becoming conscious of abuse is difficult and comes in stages. Anger and venting are a necessary part, and WrongPlanet is the safest place to do it.

I want to compare it to domestic abuse, except that the kind of abuse I'm talking about is more profound than typical spousal abuse: (a) It is not something new. It has been going on since birth, and is the only kind of treatment you have ever known. We're not just talking about a loss of identity and self-esteem here; we're talking about someone who was actively prevented from really developing a solid identity and self-esteem in the first place. Basic concepts of trust, communication, confidence that should have been formed in infancy, and you’re building them from scratch, as an adult, with no help from anyone. (b) You can't get away. If you are under-age or economically dependant or employed by your abuser, you have no options. You need to find a way to heal where you are, while the abuse continues.

You need to break free and get it straight in your own mind before you can hope to explain it, even to an NT who is willing to hear.

I think a little venting is not only understandable, but a necessity. And, considering all the soul-crushing social fictions that we are forced to swallow, I think a little self-defensive social fiction is more than reasonable.

You forgot the heavy stuff. Pointless wars, corruption on a massive, historic scale, a corruption that has permeated the culture from the top down, institutionalized abuse, the whole self-contradictory, self-destructive, mass hallucination that is making everyone miserable, including the worst of the NTs themselves, and is causing them to crash the global economy and destroy the planet… I blame it all on a herd-mentality that causes shallow, irrational thinking.

Yep – what she said. That’s roughly what I was thinking, but Ephemerella says it well. If I ever get to the part with the “optimistic voice,” I’ll let you guys know.

Yep. I don’t have the time or the interest to qualify and apologize. And they don’t deserve it.

You’re dern tootin. On this site, I’m not going to make any effort to be PC, just on the off-chance that some NT might be offended. When was the last time one of them cared about whether I was offended? I get enough of that crap everywhere else. I want a place where I can tell the truth.

Then we first need to figure it out within and between ourselves. The truth can not be expressed at all in NT terms. The emperor is naked, and there’s just no polite way to say that. The happy-sappy euphemisms, if necessary at all, are for the reconciliation phase, which is near the end of the process. (We could probably leave out the part about how unattractive the emperor is when he dances, with all that blubber and jiggling…)

On the contrary, I’d say that if you ARE doing the "I'm-a-happy-altruistic-naive-Wunderkind" dance, you're one of the "bad ones". Clueless. As in “Uncle Tom.” If you’re “sick of the anti-NT bias,” it’s because you haven’t begun the process.

Last edited by Tahitiii on 12 Dec 2008, 12:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Define “nice.” Is my sister “nice” when she comes out with her let-them-eat-cake attitude? She likes to tell me that I need drugs and lessons in social skills. As though supporting the status quo and internalizing the idea that I have a disorder will somehow improve my quality of life. As though taking drugs just that so I can tolerate the continuing abuse will somehow make sense. I already know how to tolerate abuse – you just shut yourself down and keep your mouth closed. I’m already too good at that. What I need is a drug that will wake me up and help me to cultivate defensive anger. How about the “nice” plantation owner who doesn’t beat you up too often and promises not to sell you down the river as long as you behave? Does that fit the definition of “nice?”

“We are not a disease. We are the cure.” I think all of the important philosophers and prophets were Aspies. I am absolutely sure that Moses was. Their mistake was in hoping that everyone could do what they found to be so easy.

If you want to be polite, how about the word, "barrier"? If you are not concerned at the moment with being polite, we could talk about the element in the NT’s nature that makes him want to kill the messenger and control everything.

Yep, that’s right. And if we just hold hands and think happy thoughts, they’ll see the light and change their ways. I think I’ll sit right here and hold my breath until that happens.

Ok, that one I DO agree with. There’s a big difference between defensive and offensive moves. “Your right to swing your arm ends where my nose begins.” Funny how NTs can’t see the line between the two. With every little group, from the playground up, they originally join together for their common defense, but once they have that power they just keep right on going. Global domination in the name of freedom? How stupid do you have to be to believe that one?

Ignoring the non-physical abuse is what gets me into trouble. It makes me stupid and worthless and makes it difficult to do the legitimate aspects of my job. It also leads to witch hunting, which gets me fired. I have no idea how to defend myself against an as*hole. Logic and compassion are all I have to work with, and they respond to neither. And the authorities are usually the worst offenders. In general, most of them attained the position for a reason. People who seek power over you, and who are willing to use brutality and dishonesty to get it, are not your friends.

Actually, yes, the rules do get suspended. For strangers and for degraded people (enemies, slaves, prisoners, wives, children). In human nature, the rules are only for allies, not for strangers. And a neutral stranger is intolerable for any length of time. Sooner or later, you have to choose whether you're with or against someone. The official, spoken rules say that you can remain neutral, but no one will accept that rule in real life. Some enlightened people can handle it, most can not.

Ephemerella, would you please write a book? Starting with the stuff you’ve said in this thread, expanding and explaining it, and working in elements along the lines of the thinking of Malcolm X. “Who Taught You To Hate Yourself?” http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRSgUTWffMQ&NR=1

... then again, couldn't it be equally possible that rather than displaying NT traits here, they are actually displaying extremely AS-prevailant traits? You are accusing them of being pedantic, picking things apart, getting upset over semantics, and failing to communicate.

To me, this sounds more like an absolute expression of AS frustration than anything else.

Am I sick of the anti-NT bias?

No.

You've been there. Something that I've gone through... TWICE. Wow, thank you for posting this. It means a lot to me.



I'll go out and read some Malcolm X if it has helped you, and you recommend it to me. It makes sense to read the words of others who have experienced similar things. Thanks for the link.

You do have a point.

You know it is such a fascinating problem, how to communicate optimally in a forum that is both neurodiverse and where a lot of people have communications disorder, who log in from all over the world, talking about what are often ambiguous meanings of their social experiences.

This is one of the most intensive and challenging verbal-training periods I've undertaken this year. I'm improving a lot in a short time but it's quite complicated because the communications disorders occur on many levels, as well as cultural bias and frame-of-reference semantic disconnects, all at once.

I do think it is not constructive, tho, for NTs and higher-functioning AS to dump on the expressions and attempts at social discussion (even venting) of other AS. Part of the PTSD, or traumatization, of some AS with communications disorders who go out in the world, is being ridiculed, punished or retaliated against for attempting to discuss the abuse or complain about it. Almost always, it is easy for the retaliation to focus on how the socially ret*d, communications-impaired AS is trying to say what they are trying to say. If you cannot learn how to speak (frame the ideas) to talk about the traumatic or hurtful social experiences, because you lack a social mind you will never be able to process the trauma, because it doesn't process internally but just sits there like a lump of trauma. So AS with social trauma PTSD have to explicitly, verbally and hopefully with help, construct that corner of a social mind needed to process the experience. It's not something AS do lightly, they are not anti-NT bigoted rants, and it shouldn't be dumped on. And any discussion on this board that helps young individual AS learn the cognitive skills on how to build social insights from discussing experiences, is helpful to avoiding their developing a PTSD from negative social experiences when they grow up and go out into the world.

I wonder, do you think, from my posts here, that that covers myself? Because I for one am not happy, no longer naif, for d- certain not a Wunderkind - nor was I ever, though perhaps I thought so at the time - and am instead suffering under a socially crippling set of reactions, attitudes, phobias, whatever that I was fairly happy to find, after thirty years, appear to have a name. It's not trendy, it's not cool, I don't want the stupid thing, I do not think the game is worth the candle but it is at least nice to finally know what it's called.

If you weren't thinking that, then I apologise for once again reading you wrong. If you were, please reconsider.

Who is all?



If you know what is really going on in another's minds, you either are either delusional, pretending or indeed able to read my thoughts and the thoughts of others.


For clarification, who is socially 'ret*d'? Not those that are included by the 'we', according to you:



I sincerely doubt that 'we' of those who're not socially 'ret*d' for being unable to think through all social interaction is meant to represent those with AS. Or else many with AS will now be undiagnosed.



You say a lack of SPD gives you the ability to understand SPD.

That does not make sense because it is even just plain incorrect.

Do you have ADHD? If not, you must be able to understand it. Many of its traits are the same or related to AS. Or maybe OCD? You must understand that too.


What I don't understand is your whole reference to langauge use and understanding langauge use of others that you claim relates to my post of reflecting about personal use of language.

Autism doesn't necessarily equate to an inability of respectful consideration of others.

If a person shows they're capable of developing a verbal understanding of 'others vs self' in use, they also have a verbal understanding of 'others and self'. Whether this is more than just an understanding of words or not, whether they actually have an understanding of the context and how far that understanding goes, how they are able to adjust that knowledge and thought-process to new situations... that gives way to a lot of what others perceive as impolite behaviour that is not intended nor considered.



Then of course it was all the better that I, autistic even, wasn't talking about changing the choice of words but about consideration and thoughtfulness of what I, you and everybody else will mean with their words and what to associate and what not to associate with a person who happens to be non-autistic (but has others disabilities).


Why the hell are you talking to me in the first place, when you indirectly attack me anyway? I wasn't talking to you. If you are annoyed by my presence in the form of a post and cannot not-attack me, it would be wiser to ignore me or stating your annoyance rather than giving it way.

Furthermore, you are not the measure or decision maker of what AS/HFA are like nor for who is allowed to be autistic or not, what co-morbids they have and do not have. Neither for their viewpoints and intentions.

I don't care if you like to be or not of why you pretend to want to be, but you are definitely not.

These forums are a place for people to talk about their issues and in particular the discrimination they've experienced because a lot of their world is biased in favour of the neuro-typical. However, I do feel uncomfortable when people focus on a mentality of us versus them. Sometimes I feel that people's factional tendencies combined with the potency of their experiences of discrimination in all its forms can make them a little overzealous. I like to think that they are just enthused to find others that understand and share their experiences. When I get tired of the repetition I simply stay away from the forums for several months.

We are all people, with some differences, and rather than polarising each other we ought to be encouraging openness, understanding and tolerance.

Last edited by little-bird on 12 Dec 2008, 2:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

No, I didn't think that at all because even tho your posts were arguing the other side, you had grounded ideas and reasoning that had value in terms of being useful thought.

I learn a lot from reading opposition posts, where the posts express insights.

Sora thank you for your post. I have to go but will bookmark & read later.

Yes.

I bash them because they're such an easy target.

Nothing personal, I'm just vindictive.

'Them' meaning 'all neurotypicalpersons'? How can such an incredibly large group who only have one thing absolutely in common - lack of a neurological impairment - be an easy target?

But you'd hate them bashing you because you're an easy target?