Uncomfortable experience with a psychologist. Part 2

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First of all, happy Fourth of July to those living or visiting in the US.

In my previous thread titled "Uncomfortable experience with a psychologist. Is it normal?", I talked about how a psychologist I used to see placed a lot of emphasis on feelings. She definitely went overboard on that (even though I'm sure her intentions were honorable), so much that I completely avoided talking about things that truly bothered me. I simply didn't want her asking me those "how did that make you feel" questions. Instead, I talked about very minor things that I could easily give a straight answer to. Also, I memorized the responses I knew she would like, and just recited them when I necessary.

Now, here comes Part 2. It happened roughly the same year. Despite constantly giving her the run-around with minor topics I could easily resolve myself and scripted answers, I sometimes felt like I should discuss at least one significant thing, just so I'm not wasting her time. So, I told her about how I was getting bullied at camp. Again, she asked me how I felt when the bullying was taking place? All I could think was: "Hello! If you don't know how a bullying victim would feel, are you sure you're in the right line of work?" So, with the right poking and prodding on the psychologist's part, we got into a drawn-out discussion about the whole thing. But about twenty minutes later, I started to become depressed. I was on the verge of a meltdown, but lucky for me, she agreed to stop the conversation. This is roughly what transpired.
Aspie1: <talks about what the bullies did, feeling sadder and sadder in the process>
Psychologist: I'm sorry you had to go through it. How did you feel when they were doing it?
Aspie1: My feelings were hurt, obviously. (thinking: "Are you asking this because you're glad you're not in my situation?")
Psychologist: I see. Tell me in more detail about what exactly was happening.
Aspie1: They called me... <cuts off in mid-sentence>. What a minute, how would giving you the exact details help? I doubt you're going to call the camp.
Psychologist: Talking about everything that happened will help you deal with it.
Aspie1: But all it's helping me with is getting depressed. If I have to get depressed just so I can deal with it, whatever that means, then I'd rather just let time run its course.
Psychologist: What do you mean?
Aspie1: You probably heard before that time heals all wounds. Camp will be over soon, I'll never see those people again, and I'll forget all about it.
Psychologist: I don't think that's the best way, but you seem dead-set on it. Perhaps you'd be more willing to talk when more time passes after this unpleasant experience you had.

The session was almost over at that point. I was in a really depressed mood, and there wasn't enough time to discuss a happier topic. To add insult to the injury, my parents were picking me up, and I had to put on a happy face and act like everything is fine. The last thing I wanted is my parents asking me what's wrong.

Still, I was proud of myself for getting off easy on that one. The psychologist made a lot of sense with the last thing she said. Still, I still couldn't understand how bringing up all the unpleasant details of a bully encounter, and making myself depressed in the process will help me "deal with it" (notice the quotes). The next session, I was able to sidetrack the issue by telling her that the camp director stepped in and most bullying stopped, save for an occasional dirty look. Yeah, it was all a lie, but if she thought I'd intentionally make myself depressed, she had another thing coming.

Looking at what people mentioned in the previous "Uncomfortable Experience" thread, I now realize that my psychologist used to do this because she used a Rogerian approach, the one that drives most aspies crazy. If she used CBT instead, I might be more responsive. What's interesting is that now (at age 26), it's a whole different ballgame. If a session indeed made me depressed, I can always drink a few beers, smoke a cigarette, or watch a porno. I sure didn't have access to those mood-elevating luxuries at age 13.

So here's my question. Is it common or normal to feel depressed after going through a therapy session? Or would that mean that something is amiss? Post your thoughts on all this. Thanks.

I think it isn't weird or stupid at all to feel depressed after that. I have many bad memories too, and thinking about them makes me feel depressed, it doesn't help me. Even more, they make it harder to deal with them. I think this psychologist is doing it the wrong way. Trying to deal with it by calling these memories alive is only destructive I think, and not of use. You should let time heal the wounds. By ripping them open, you let them come to live again and make you feel again what you felt back then. This way it will haunt you much more than when you just let time do it's work. You will notice that when you do that, memories will have less impact on you. Going through the nasty experiences over and over you only keep the memory alive, and strengthen it, instead of making it loose it's destructive value.

Recalling the details will IMO only make you feel worse and it will confirm you have suffered, which will make you feel angry, bitter, sad or depressed. You confirm that way it was all really bad, so you will feel more bad about these memories than you did before.


I don't think you can convince your psychologist of this, a lot of them think they know all about the human mind and think that whatever they say is more valuable than what a non-psychologist says. Don't buy that, they can be (very) wrong too.

All these counsellors and psychologists with all their.

"How does it make you feel?"


With no practical or constructive advice at all.
It's a very weird and inappropriate approach for many people in pain.
I do often wonder what these psychologists are being taught and how it's supposed to help exactly. I think that encourages a kind of dependency of "victim" on the therapist.

I'm not saying that how people feel isn't important, but from experience, I can say that dwelling on feelings alone isn't sensible and side-steps the outside issue. It doesn't encourage the person on the receiving end to be proactive.

This is certainly not how I would go about comforting or helping someone in a constructive manner!

You'd have thought that after all of their years training that psychologists would have realised that being bullied makes people feel terrible. It's kind of goes without saying really.

Dwelling on how you feel (if you're systematically being attacked, assaulted or bullied) or even discussing "nicely" how you feel with the perpetrator isn't going to help! It's just going to make you feel worse.

Talking about feelings by themselves certainly isn't adequate support for someone who thinks in a task or object orientated way (think about it!).
It also doesn't teach resilience or taking active control of the situation yourself or bring the situation to a practical resolution for both parties.

This is how I'd approach the issue if I was a camp psychologist.
I'd listen.
I'd say I'd be there for them.
I'd take down details of when and where the bullying occurred.
I'd have a discussion with the perpetrators and inform the higher up camp authorities to ensure that the perpetrators were dealt with appropriately.
I would enforce a zero tolerance to bullying on camp and would ask the perpetrators why they did what they did.

I would also suggest strategies that people could use on camp to protect themselves or make friends with the bully (if safe and appropriate).
I would not encourage people to become victims, but would try and provide them with the negotiation/communication skills they could use to eventually resolve disputes by themselves in an adult fashion.

I'd also try and train people to ignore some things that others say and to get on with their own lives. If you aren't bothered by the odd offensive word, the bullies will get bored.

I would also accept the fact that not everyone can get along with each other all the time and that some people naturally "fall out" after a while or do not have the right social chemistry to "gel". This is what comes with people being unique and different individuals sharing the same space. You can't ever force anyone to be your friend and some people won't like you no matter how nice you are to them.

I would also realise that some people engage in thuggish behaviour need proper reprimanding and that any form of prolonged physical bullying should be technically classified as assault.

These are just my views on this.

The psychologist is using an NT therapeutic model (the only one in existence, at this point) which clearly doesn't work for AS people.

In the NT therapeutic model, the psychologist isn't looking for information for herself. She is well aware that being bullied makes you sad. Her goal isn't to give advice on how to deal with bullies. Her goal is to bring feelings to the surface so they can be talked about.

It looks like the problem is that psychotherapy that works foor NT people just plain can't work for AS perople. Yet there is no other model. Nor is there going to be one coming from the NT psychology field. The only way out of this quandary is for people with AS to go into the therapeutic field themselves and create a new and more appropriate model. Going to an NT pschotherapist is liking going to a blind optomotrist. They just aren't going to see the world the same way you do and therefore can't give you the exact sort of help you need. AS people are going to have to go into the field and make a therapuetic specialty themselves.

I know what you mean about this type of therapy, Aspie1. It drives me batty.

I have no idea how many people feel more depressed after therapy, but know I certainly would most of the time, and it shouldn't be that way.

I think bringing things to the surface can be beneficial initially, if the person is so out of touch with their feelings they need it, but it doesn't need to be dwelt upon after that. I think a good therapist acts as a guide towards self discovery. This is how I realized after years and years that I was confusing approval with love and how that had affected my relationship with my mother. Sometimes it's all in how the "guide" asks the question and "How does that make you feel ?" just seems lazy and uncreative to me. I have had a psychologist ask me to say back something I had said to someone else to her so I could hear how it sounded from a different perspective. So I think talk therapy has some value but I agree a more proactive goal oriented approach is much needed. I try to tell my Aspie son things that I have figured like how people sometimes tease you because they like you.

Yes, it's normal. My psychiatrist said that if therapy is making me feel terrible, that's good, cause it means it's working. I really don't think I'm going to continue with therapy.

I think that for most people talking about things helps. For me, talking is stressful. Why the HECK would I deal with stress by doing something that stresses me out? I don't need to "get it off my chest" by talking to someone, the talking is really for their benefit, not mine, so they can attempt to understand me better. But it hurts me. Badly.

A psychologist like that is no better than an artist who can only draw one thing. Yeah, that's great that you can paint horses, only I was looking for a landscape. Heaven help you if you like Futurism!

I think most psychologists no more embrace the uniqueness of their patients than a medical doctor does. I think they look at the symptoms, classify the patient, pick the most common diagnosis and follow the most likely procedure. And with kids especially, you get either treated like you don't know how to talk about your feelings yet (I didn't, when it was me, but they hadn't really gotten to the reasons why... my parents never spent any time in conversation with me) or they try to stroke you by treating you like an adult. What kid ever falls for that?

I've never had therapy better than what I've been able to provide myself with introspection and study.

Just to clear up any misunderstandings, the person I spoke to was not the camp psychologist. She worked in an office building nowhere near the camp. Anyway, I noticed a lot of posts about bringing the feelings to the surface and getting in touch with your feelings (just typing those phrases made me cringe). It seems to be an NT thing, so if anyone on here who's NT, please chime in and post your thoughts. I probably won't understand the reasoning behind it, but I'd still like to know how exactly "bringing my feelings to the surface" and "getting in touch with my feelings" is going to benefit me? What's the connection between reliving the feelings associated with being bullied and feeling better? It just seems contradictory at best.

And honestly, the question about how bullying made me feel sounded very patronizing and smacked of a superiority complex, in a "I'm glad it's not me" kind of way. I'm sure she'd never do that in a million years, but that's exactly how the question sounded. Going against my own judgment, I talked about it, what guess what? I got depressed as a result, and it took me a few days to get over it. I'm good at math and everything, but this just doesn't add up. The psychologist said that talking about my feelings will help me, so I agreed, just to try it. Well, it didn't do squat! It only made depressed. How is getting depressed supposed to help me? If it's going to help "in the long run", then I'd rather not bother if "long" means 20 years.

its a key phras how does it make you feel? in psychology because it makes the patient talk outwardly of themselves so that they will logically get to the rawness of that emotion because the patient LOCks on to the pint in history revealing all their feelings

After reading the responses, I thought I should illustrate another example, this time with an escort. It happened just 2 days before Thanksgiving of 2007, in the evening. I reserved a 1-hour meeting with an escort, and came to her hotel. We shared our introductions, then moved on to the intimate part of the meeting. After we were "done", there was still 25 minutes left, so we just talked. This is how it went.
Escort: Hey, Thanksgiving is almost here. What are your plans?
Aspie1: The usual family get-together, traditional meal and all. How about you?
Escort: (slightly frustrated) Family.
Aspie1: What's wrong? You don't seem too enthusiastic about that?
Escort: Eh, you know how families are. They're good if you don't spend too much time with them.
Aspie1: I hear ya. My family always shushes me when I try to talk at holiday meals.
Escort: Wow, that's gotta suck.
Aspie1: Yeah, but at least I have the upper hand this year. They can tell me to be quiet, but I had hell of a lot more fun than they did just a few days earlier.
Escort: (laughs) Yeah, I bet you'll enjoy the celebration a lot more.
Aspie1: (confidently) I'm sure I will. <topic changes at this point>

The difference is like night and day! The escort never asked me about my feelings, but still gave me a great pep talk, after I told her about the way my parents treat me at holiday meals. Obviously I felt good from the "main act", but the pep talk is what put the icing on the cake. I barely said a few words at the table during the meal, and didn't feel bad about it at all. I can only imagine what would happen if I told a psychologist about the same family dynamic. By the way, this isn't meant to derail the discussion into the directions of escorts. I just wanted to point out the difference.

Last edited by Aspie1 on 04 Jul 2009, 1:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I can imagine how that phrase could be daunting for those who might have trouble verbalizing their emotions...

Hmm, not to derail the discussion further, but therapist ARE an awful lot like escorts, aren't they?

Such as Alexithymics for example...


At my old High School, there was a very successful anti-bullying programme.

The counseling and mentoring side was definitely more geared towards NTs, but not once did any of the staff ask me (or anyone else for that matter) to dwell on how they felt!

I thought it was actually a pretty good system.

Once I was having a minor dispute with another person in my group.
I went up to the teacher to ask for advice and she said:

"Okay, point taken, fair enough, I understand: now what are YOU going to do about it?"


Which is probably one of the wisest and most proactive things that anyone has ever said to me. She said that it was MY responsibility to sort my own life and minor grievances out. She was absolutely right.

Another time, I accidently got in with the "wrong" crowd and members of this crowd began harassing one of my old friends for lunch money. I managed to chase the perpetrators away and I immediately wrote a short journal of events and found any bystanders I could for witnesses. I told a teacher on duty the details of what had happened and met with my tutor later. The whole thing was resolved pretty quickly and proactively. Nobody dwelled on feelings: they were briefly mentioned, then the form tutor asked:

"How would you like this to be resolved? What do YOUsuggest?"

What I liked about this process was I was kept duly informed throughout and I was in control. I wasn't made a passive "victim" and the perpetrator wasn't demonised (which was probably just as well because we had been quite good friends up until that point!).


As for the "How does it make you feel?" philosophy, I've had several old NT friends come to me and say that it didn't really work for them either!

Believe it or not, they actually wanted more practical advice!

There are several books that are currently critiquing the "on the couch" system and these books are claiming that the therapeutic methods actually make people take on the role of the passive victim and not try to improve their lives/environments constructively in ways that could actually help. These books also claim that these methods make every patient (including NTs) dependent on the therapist.

I'll have to say that there are things that the:
"How did it make you feel method?" probably does work better for:
Bereavement, sudden shock accidents, tragedy and severe PSTD.
I've read some psychology texts and I believe that this method was designed with these things in mind (things beyond the patient's control). Even so, the psychologist is only mortal and I think it's kind of unfair to expect them to be able to comfort anyone completely from these horrors or death.

As for a possible AS method, I'd suggest something along the lines of the anti-bullying support at my old High School perhaps with some negotiation techniques thrown in.
I stumbled on this website:

http://www.bullies2buddies.com/Victim-P ... l-Workshop

These techniques are pretty similar to the things that my old High School encouraged me to work out on my own. I actually made friends with some boys in the last form that were teasing me using tricks like these. The boys were just bored (that's why they picked on other kids). Soon I had my own last year body guards!

I thanked them for pointing out my flaws and said what thoughtful boys they were for doing so. I also said how smart and sensible they were for doing so, and what nice apparel they had on. They were so flattered that they liked me after that and offered me their sandwiches .


I also think that any AS counseling method has to be task and object based to take into account this valid method of thought. It should be focussed on proactive outcomes for the individual.

Feelings and self expression should be mentioned as tools to drive practical action.

Structuring feelings in the forms of Art, Crafts, Poetry or Music would also help bring them into the concrete realm. Once I give me feelings structure it's a huge relief and better than dwelling on the abstract. Feelings can be used as a productive creative outlet or to learn a new skill.

Who knows, perhaps these arts could be sold or used to teach others?

Also therapy tailored to the individual and not to some vague (plus often incorrect) AS stereotype would also help too.

Practical usable advice/coping skills would help too.

I actually think that quite a few NTs would actually prefer these methods to the "How does it make you feel" system also!


Actually I think that most people (NT and AS) need:

A genuine friend who will honestly listen.


Not somebody who "thinks" they are listening because just they've been trained a to listen to everyone in the same way.

Some of the best friends I've had were people who openly admitted that they couldn't help me and couldn't gauge how I was feeling. At least they were honest.

Good post AmberEyes[/b
just sayin'.

[b]IllinoisCentral
sorry I made you cringe
I hate jargon too.
I just meant I guess it has it's place for some.
I'm a therapy veteran; I once told one I knew exactly what she was going to say. She didn't like that.
Like when you talk about something that's really bothering you and they say"What are the good things in your life?'

Thanks

Here are some of the "on the couch" book critiques I stumbled on during a casual search:

One Nation Under Therapy: How the Helping Culture Is Eroding Self-Reliance by Christina Hoff Sommers

Manufacturing Victims: What the Psychology Industry Is Doing to People
by Tana Dineen

Therapy Culture: Cultivating Vulnerability in an Uncertain Age
by Frank Furedi

I haven't read any of these myself, but it seems that some NTs aren't completely happy with some of the current techniques in used psychotherapy.

I'm sure when used in the right way, feelings based techniques could be useful for highly traumatic events beyond the patient's control.

For other situations however, perhaps using exclusively feelings based techniques would be (as an analogy) like trying to move a large pile of sand with a pair of tweezers...
The wrong tool for that particular situation, but a usable tool in some other circumstances none-the-less.




That's because they are given a set approach and formula of questions in training.
That's why you can predict what they're going to say!

There are some very funny moments in the film K-PAX where Dr Powell's patient "Prot" says something along the lines of:

"Dr Powell, for an intelligent man...you repeat yourself a lot!"

Lampooning the "Reflective Listening" and feelings based techniques commonly used by psychotherapists.