Theory Of Mind / Empathy

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What level of theory of mind and empathetic impairment do you have? Does this ToM impairment mean that you, personally, never consider that others might be thinking something different than you, that you just have trouble figuring out what exactly it is that they are thinking, or what?

I feel that i have trouble figuring out what it is that people are thinking, and sometimes come off like i don't care because it just doesn't occur to me through what they are doing that they are feeling a certain way. But, i also find that i care a lot about how other people feel, i'm just usually somewhat oblivious to it unless it's specifically described. I try to take into consideration that other people feel differently than i do about some things and that there are certain big things that i understand why most people get offended by so i avoid doing(like negatively criticizing someone's appearance). An example of me feeling sympathy for people would be when my parents pretty much fired my sister's friend who worked really hard on learning to play a song for my sister's wedding. I felt really bad for her, because it seemed like she worked hard on it just for everyone to pretty much say that they'd rather have a CD of it playing. What was funny is that no one else even seemed to care nearly as much about it as i did. I don't know exactly how the girl was feeling about it, and it wasn't something i picked up from how she acted... but it seemed to me that it was likely bad because i know that working hard on something just to be dismissed doesn't feel good. I felt like when she left i should have walked out after her and done something, i just don't know what(and i don't even know this person). So, i guess when i know the whole specific situation, it's something that i can understand, and don't have to rely on how someone is acting to know how they feel, it's really easy for me to feel bad for them. But then, at the same time, i do often seem sort of stuck on my own interests and issues, and what other people are thinking won't occur to me in general interaction. So, it's kind of weird how it works. My mom actually saw a clip from the movie "adam" on tv where the girl is carrying all the luggage up the stairs, and she said "that reminds me of something you would do!" Just because those things don't always occur to me, especially when i'm thinking about something else.. But i'm trying to make a effort to remember to be helpful to people. There's one person on here who made a comment about aspies giving people gifts they, themselves, like even if they know the other person is going to hate it. I don't think i'd do that. I try to put thought into what things the person i'm giving a gift to likes. It's often difficult to figure out what i think they'd like.. and i guess that has something to do with a certain impairment in knowing what other people are thinking... but there are certain things, for example, that i know my mom and grandmother like, like candles(and i don't particularly like or dislike candles), that i fall back on because i know they use them a lot. A lot of the time i try to get people i know to get into the things i like, because i don't see how they wouldn't also be as interested as i am if they got started with it. But, at the end of the day, i know that other people have different opinions than me(obviously!).

I know they think different things. I often wish they thought the same thing as me, though, lol. I often am clueless about what they are thinking. Is it really true that some people can look at someone and they know what that person is thinking without them saying anything? I know I can't do that. I am clueless about what people are thinking although I can tell their emotional state (happy/sad/angry). The thing that confuses me the most is looking down with a wide grin. When I see someone doing that I wonder what it is they are thinking that is causing it. Smirks, looking down and grins are the things that confuse me. Another thing that confuses me are stares. I have trouble figuring out why people stare and what different stares mean. I can't tell if a stare is hostile or friendly or they are trying to figure something out or what.
Certain types of empathy I do have trouble with, like empathisizing with someone when they do something I disapprove of. Or, empathisizing with their likes and interests. Sometimes I say "why would someone like/do that?" I wonder that more than I admit.

I realized in my late 30s that people have their own thoughts, feelings, beliefs, and desires. Prior to that I hadn't figured out much about people at all, except that they were a mystery.

Now I am very confident that people do not think or experience the world the way I do. Beyond that people are still a big mystery, though lots of reading has made me aware of common patterns of behavior, interests, desires, and such. But I can't take that knowledge and apply it to individuals that I know or interact with.

The rest: ditto what ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo said, more or less. Fortunately I've learned not to worry about these things. I know I'll get it wrong, and in most cases it won't make much of a difference anyway. To err is human, Aspie or NT.

I can tell if someone is in a bad mood and just waiting for someone to give them an excuse to go off (thanks Dad). I think it has to do with the way someone holds their body. I can tell if someone wants me to shut up or if I've just said something inappropriate. Lack of Theory of Mind for me isn't complete inability to recognize someone else's point of view. I know that intellectually. It's more that I see so many possible interpretations. I drive myself crazy with the analyzing. The way they describe lack of theory of mind sounds so selfish and egotistical and think it's more complicated than that.

I've been trying to figure it out.

It seems that NTs have direct empathy circuitry, so it's like you get stuck with a pin, you feel pain and say Oww! An automatic reflex. Aspies have cognitive empathy. We evaluate the situation, decide how we feel about it, and then decide what we should express. It's because our empathy is in a different part of the brain.

In my experiments on NTs <grin>, it seems that they always want to feel like they see the big picture and understand what other people are thinking and feeling, and they are very uncomfortable with uncertainty. They always have an 'opinion'. Aspies tend to make evidence-based evaluations. So NTs start off assuming they know exactly what's going on, and then adjust their understanding as information comes in. Aspies assume nothing without evidence.

OK, this over-simplifies, but it's useful.

If NTs are so good at mind reading, why are they so clueless? And how come their relationships always seem to be a mess? The empathic reflex certainly helps in social interaction, but it doesn't seem to make better predictions than evidence-based evaluations when it comes to judging character, or determining if someone is telling the truth, for example. Believing intuition can lead to 'self-fulfilling prophesies' or a feeling of certainty because there isn't contrary evident, but it all seems a bit delusional to me.

There's a theory that what set Homo Sapiens Sapiens apart from Neaderthals was Sapiens' self-delusional proclivity, but that's a different thread.

But I mean this in the best possible way. Really.

I think you make a good point duke666-I can see myself in the cognitive empathy idea.

Cognitive empathy is probably a good way to describe it. I have to stop and think about how someone's circumstances would affect me were I in their place, how would I feel. I think this perhaps ties into the whole strong sense of social justice that many aspies feel, that our having to cognitively empathise in this manner, and the way we relate it to our own experiences with often being excluded and marginalised.


john

Great explanation - makes a lot of sense to me. I honestly don't understand this whole topic... I think it's a case of my not being aware of or missing something I never had in the first place. It doesn't compute.

I have no trouble reading people, but I think maybe that is a cognitive function based on years of experience and observation, rather than the natural way like a NT brain. When I was a kid I wasn't aware of others' thoughts and feelings - I remember so many times playing with other kids and having to be reminded that I wasn't the only one there... that is, I treated them like extensions of myself and imposed my thoughts, ideas, direction etc onto them (being the oldest of four siblings, plus three cousins, I got away with this a lot, lol). I didn't really "see" other people beyond how they fit into my little world at the moment. Then as I grew up I learned, cognitively/intellectually, those things that should have been direct/natural. I think, anyway.

I'm trying to figure all this out, too... and what you said helps.

I agree with that, so where do they get this idea that people with ASD's lack empathy? Could it be that Aspies have an easier time feeling empathy for humanity as a whole but expressing it on a one to one is more problematical?

yeh i would say cognitive empathy is a perfect description for it.I find my expression of empathy depends on how I am feeling and how busy I am. often i feel empathy where it would not be normal to express (like what coldblooded said)

i also find it difficult to express it with confidence that it is received as intended. because we seem to process it in a different way our reactions are different.

sometimes i just don't give a s**t. that is usually when i have my own problems to deal with

I like the "cognitive empathy" idea too.. 'Cause i'd consider myself a pretty caring person usually, and a lot of you seem like you are caring individuals aswell. The way "lack of empathy" is used in connection with AS always makes it sound like Aspies don't care about anyone but themselves, and that doesn't seem to be the case with the vast majority. In fact, in a lot of ways most aspies seem to care even more than most NTs when it appears that someone has been wronged. So, yeah, it's confusing....

Here is how I understand it. Empathy in this situation doesn't actually mean lack of feelings (compassion), but rather less able to put oneself in another's shoes.

Here are some standardized ways of why they may make the connection with empathy:

http://autismresearchcentre.com/tests/ssq_test.asp
http://autismresearchcentre.com/tests/f ... _adult.asp
http://autismresearchcentre.com/tests/eq_test.asp


I think Tony Atwood said AS/HFA learn empathy in an intellectual, rather than instinctual/emotional way.